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Firebug UNUSUALLY "weak"

masteriamamind

Grizzled Veteran
Oct 12, 2010
486
109
Evil Lair
The firebug seems a bit off. I main it. I was on a public sever playing on hard (6man) and my lvl6 bug didn't have the same punch. Gorefast would run right into and through my double puffs instead of dying. I found that odd. On suicidal and up I understand I need more distance , but not on hard at level6. It takes longer to get the "crispy" animation with the flame thrower. I know the mac10 had it's dot and rate reduced. I didn't think the flamethrower got "balanced".


While I am on the subject. For those of you that have been playing at least from 1013 have you noticed the pump shotgun no longer 1 shots husks in the face. This is at lvl6 support, 6man, hard. I have long since adjusted. I just want to know if I am crazy or not.

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EDIT

I want to go on record and say I know how to play KF.

1.I am not asking for a buff.
2.I am not complaining about "nerfs" .

I am asking a group of peers to validate my observations about the flame thrower (also pump shotgun) or tell me I am wrong. I was going to post in the tech support forum,but this isn't a proper issue to address there. Not being a troll just want to get some feed back. I should ask scary ghost since he is the code master here:D! (yoyo 2)
 
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Yeah yeah yeah... I play berserker with machete and doing fine... does this mean katana and axe is useless? NO! This just mean I am not using the most effective weapon.

Even a crawler in HoE and suicidal can burn for a few seconds before they die. Flamer simply is not as effective compared with other weapons. Machete can help you win the game, but katana do it better. It doesn't mean you CANNOT WIN with machete. Just much harder.

Using firebug is the simlar case. It is not that you cannot kill what you need to, just it takes much longer OR it take more % of your total ammo to do the same thing.

However, because flaming bloats and gorefasts is wating ammo (cos they WILL be kill by other berk if you let them burn) if you ONLY FOCUS on clots, stalkers, crawlers, sirens, actually you do much better cos you dont even need to shoot at those bloats and gorefasts.

I rather firebugs only shoot those 4 zeds because I HATE to be hurt by a burning crawler. I shoot it, I waste ammo. If I dont, it hits me.
 
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http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=49706

There I suggested that he gets more of a support role. The options are either making him an offensive class or increasing his role as offensive support, damage multiplier, or whatever you might want to call it.

The former (i.e. greatly increasing burn damage and ammo) would most likely be a bad idea since it would create a rivalry between firebug and commando, and kind of kills the point of the afterburn. The problem with the latter is in the game's current form the firebug's support role isn't as valuable as other perks (explained this better in the first post in the link above) and on wave 6 and on might actually hurt a team more than help them. So I suggested that he gets an increased role as an offensive support character, perhaps an alt fire mode for the flamer that does 50% less damage but slows down incoming zeds (very useful for scrakes/fp's).
 
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Myself I think he is fine as is, maybe a bit more ammo.
Not to brag, but here is an example.
Today, Biotics, HoE. I joined at the beginning of wave 3 as a beserker (L6), end of wave 3 I had 88 kills, other players All L6, (1 SS, 2 Support, 1 Medic, 1 Commando) had between 120-250 each. Switched to FB (L6) at trader, end of round ten, me 678 kills, other players between 350-500 each.

I'm sorry, but I fail to see any problem with the FB.
 
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Myself I think he is fine as is, maybe a bit more ammo.
Not to brag, but here is an example.
Today, Biotics, HoE. I joined at the beginning of wave 3 as a beserker (L6), end of wave 3 I had 88 kills, other players All L6, (1 SS, 2 Support, 1 Medic, 1 Commando) had between 120-250 each. Switched to FB (L6) at trader, end of round ten, me 678 kills, other players between 350-500 each.

I'm sorry, but I fail to see any problem with the FB.


A non-rambo berserk having low kills is normal... unless you team really sucks to let that much zeds into melee range.

Anyway, you sounds like you think anyone complaining about firebug dont know how to play, so i suppose you are pretty good at firebug. So using a perk good for yourself and having more kill... this SHOULD happen, right?

Ah... and the decreasing speed after the burn is USELESS. Because it take AGES for zeds to "deeply burn". And on suicidal and HoE this is more than enough for them to get in attack range.
 
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A non-rambo berserk having low kills is normal... unless you team really sucks to let that much zeds into melee range.

I was guarding the right hallway, not alot came that way.

Anyway, you sounds like you think anyone complaining about firebug dont know how to play, so i suppose you are pretty good at firebug. So using a perk good for yourself and having more kill... this SHOULD happen, right?

Not exactly what I'm trying to say. Most players do not understand the tap when shooting, they do not effectivly use the range of the flame thrower, and do not aim properly. In short: FireBug is a class that takes skill and discipline to use effectivly. Changing his damage output for example, will just make it another perk that is simple to use, and cause more, and more players to use it mearly for the kill ability, much the same as the did with the SS before it was nerfed.

Ah... and the decreasing speed after the burn is USELESS. Because it take AGES for zeds to "deeply burn". And on suicidal and HoE this is more than enough for them to get in attack range.

The decreased speed makes them easier to deal with for the rest of the team. Instead of a group of Gorefasts charging at them, they are moving slowly, giving the team more time to aim. Again, as I said above, properly maximising range, aiming and fire control will accomplish this.
 
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EVERY perk needs skill to be good with. THIS WHOLE GAME needs skill to win. EVEN before the nerf of M14, spamming body shot mindlessly can only help you get to wave 6. Those spammers WILL die when they do the same on fleshpoudns. I see enough of them.

And the thing is:
1. it take too long for zeds to actually deeply burn (so they will ignore you for a few seconds) , and when they do that, you sccrew up the one who are trying to hit the head.
2. the speed ruduction is nearly unoticeable. gorefasts still get to you, crawlers still jump on you before burn to death.
3. You make bloats unecessary explode.

So for gorefasts and bloats, you flame untill they die, or leave them alone. Or else you either wasting ammo or make those bloats potentially explode on someone.
And no one need a burning scrake dancing around. Best case is he get close slowly like he should. And then one headshot from axe xbow or LAR will deal with it (endless stun). We dont need some fire on his head and suddenly dance around to screw up our aiming.
 
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when you flame the other zeds outside the 4 you mention, it weakens and slows them down, this is a big help for the rest of the team.

^ This ^

You don't generally want to hose a gorefast or bloat down, but igniting makes it easier for your team to kill them for a start and also slows them down. However I would point out that the MAC-10 is the perfect accompanyment to the Flamethrower. The Flamethrower makes up for the MAC 10's recoil and weak burn out damage, making it much better at crowd control, where as the MAC-10 makes up for the flamethrowers inability to get a crit headshot on solo targets.

As a general rule of thumb, use the FT for Zed ignitions and mob control and use the mac 10 to eliminate solo threats.

The main strengths of the Firebug are unlike the Commando he can deal the same damage without needing to carefully aim for the head, he is much cheaper to maintain that the demo, and very rarely needs to reload unlike the Support. Plus Husks don't force him to retreat his position, meaning if a Husk is meat shielded the Firebug can continue operating as normal rather than risk getting pushed back or injured.
 
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EVERY perk needs skill to be good with. THIS WHOLE GAME needs skill to win. EVEN before the nerf of M14, spamming body shot mindlessly can only help you get to wave 6. Those spammers WILL die when they do the same on fleshpoudns. I see enough of them.

And the thing is:
1. it take too long for zeds to actually deeply burn (so they will ignore you for a few seconds) , and when they do that, you sccrew up the one who are trying to hit the head.

RANGE MAXIMIZATION, FIRE CONTROL.

2. the speed ruduction is nearly unoticeable. gorefasts still get to you, crawlers still jump on you before burn to death.

RANGE MAXIMIZATION, FIRE CONTROL .

3. You make bloats unecessary explode.

RANGE MAXIMIZATION, FIRE CONTROL.

So for gorefasts and bloats, you flame untill they die, or leave them alone. Or else you either wasting ammo or make those bloats potentially explode on someone.

One more time: RANGE MAXIMIZATION, FIRE CONTROL.

And no one need a burning scrake dancing around. Best case is he get close slowly like he should. And then one headshot from axe xbow or LAR will deal with it (endless stun). We dont need some fire on his head and suddenly dance around to screw up our aiming. one more time for this too : ''JUDGEMENT CALL''

Seems to me that you have never played with a good fire bug before.
 
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Seems to me that you have never played with a good fire bug before.


WHAT I SAID WAS: IF YOU CHOOSE to burn a gorefast or bloat, KILL IT. OR YOU ARE wasting ammo. That's the main point.

If you let a gorefasts burn, your teamate WILL HAVE TO KILL it. Because once it gets into charge range, its likely that they will charge in Z shape which make it very hard to head shot.


And basically support need to shoot EVERYTHING, commando's target is also very very much. So if firebugs dont even waste ammo on gorefasts and bloats (which I NEVER see a fire bug do), it will be very likely that not even A SINGLE crawlers or clots will get in rage. And as you save much effort for commandos, no stalkers/gorefasts/bloats will get close. So berserkers and sharpshooter can dual with the bigs much easier.


FB dont have huge disavantage, however adding some kind of bonus has nothing wrong too. Its just make sense that a burning living thing will take more damage from bullets or melee because their skin is soften up. This is just a change that promotes teamwork and will not be game-breaking. This kind of change can also avoid a team with too many players using the same perk. because one firebug can give you damage bonus, and two firebugs cannot provide damage bonus to each other.
 
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WHAT I SAID WAS: IF YOU CHOOSE to burn a gorefast or bloat, KILL IT. OR YOU ARE wasting ammo. That's the main point.

The point is to weaken it! And once again: FB's ignite GROUPS, not SINGLE targets.

If you let a gorefasts burn, your teamate WILL HAVE TO KILL it. Because once it gets into charge range, its likely that they will charge in Z shape which make it very hard to head shot.

If it is burned enough that it is doing that, then a headshot is not needed, 1 shot from just about any weapon will kill it. Of course your teammates will have to kill it. That is how it works: weakening the zeds making it easier for the rest of the team to deal with them.


And basically support need to shoot EVERYTHING, commando's target is also very very much. So if firebugs dont even waste ammo on gorefasts and bloats (which I NEVER see a fire bug do), it will be very likely that not even A SINGLE crawlers or clots will get in rage. And as you save much effort for commandos, no stalkers/gorefasts/bloats will get close. So berserkers and sharpshooter can dual with the bigs much easier.

This statement alone confirms what I said before: You have never played with a good FB.


FB dont have huge disavantage, however adding some kind of bonus has nothing wrong too. Its just make sense that a burning living thing will take more damage from bullets or melee because their skin is soften up. This is just a change that promotes teamwork and will not be game-breaking. This kind of change can also avoid a team with too many players using the same perk. because one firebug can give you damage bonus, and two firebugs cannot provide damage bonus to each other.

Seems to me that we are doing nothing more than reiteraiting the same points over and over, therefore I think this exchange has become pointless, and see no reason to continue with it.
 
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The point is to weaken it! And once again: FB's ignite GROUPS, not SINGLE targets.

Flamer CANNOT penetrate zeds... I tested it for quite a few times. If a bloat is in front, no matter a tap my mouse or hold it, none of the zeds behidn will catch fire before the bloat dies. So, you either miss the target, or you are using fire nades, basically you will not burn what you dont want to.

And gorefasts and bloats dont really need to be weaken... bloats is better to just drop on the groud because losing his head, and gorefasts die fast enough by removing his head.


If it is burned enough that it is doing that, then a headshot is not needed, 1 shot from just about any weapon will kill it. Of course your teammates will have to kill it. That is how it works: weakening the zeds making it easier for the rest of the team to deal with them.

Removeing every single one crawlers and clots is much better than burning those gorefasts and bloats and not killing them for the team. It is no point of a players who try to take out everything. Support and commandos already have enough to deal with, reducing their work load is more than enough.

Burning bloats and gorefast just make them have much more to consider. Will it die before they get close? Should I be shooting that group of clots instead? So, what I suggest is you ignore, or you kill it. Other than that will do no good for the team. And if each perk only have several kinds of zeds to deal with, the whole team can save much more ammo, i.e. much more money. Its just like some sharpshooter shooting every sirens and husks and end up having no ammo for the last few scrakes or fleshpounds. Why dont just let that support do the job? Focus on what your team cannot do well (or not good enough). Letting all those gorefast and bloat distracting you will just let some sneaky crawlers close in sooner or later.

This statement alone confirms what I said before: You have never played with a good FB.


That means you agree that FB should not waste ammo on bloat and gorefasts. And you say you are a good FB, but you also say FB should be burning gorefasts and bloats...
 
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People UNUSUALLY want to buff the class they like.

Instead of just understanding it's role. I was holding main corridor as FireBug with Commando and SS in Biotic Labs on HoE.
I only level 4, and yet I got most kills. FireBug to me as for weaking middle class enemies (siren and gorefast) and annihilating low class (clots and crawlers)
 
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The point is to weaken it! And once again: FB's ignite GROUPS, not SINGLE targets.

Flamer CANNOT penetrate zeds... I tested it for quite a few times. If a bloat is in front, no matter a tap my mouse or hold it, none of the zeds behidn will catch fire before the bloat dies. So, you either miss the target, or you are using fire nades, basically you will not burn what you dont want to.

Then move to the side a bit and flame the others from an angle, or switch to the mac10, kill it, then go back to flaming. BTW, why did one of your team members not kill the Bloat that was blocking you?

And gorefasts and bloats dont really need to be weaken... bloats is better to just drop on the groud because losing his head, and gorefasts die fast enough by removing his head.


If it is burned enough that it is doing that, then a headshot is not needed, 1 shot from just about any weapon will kill it. Of course your teammates will have to kill it. That is how it works: weakening the zeds making it easier for the rest of the team to deal with them.

Removeing every single one crawlers and clots is much better than burning those gorefasts and bloats and not killing them for the team. It is no point of a players who try to take out everything. Support and commandos already have enough to deal with, reducing their work load is more than enough.

Sigh...You are really not getting this are you? FB's ignite GROUPS GROUPS GROUPS, NOT SINGLE TARGETS!!!!

Burning bloats and gorefast just make them have much more to consider. Will it die before they get close? Should I be shooting that group of clots instead? So, what I suggest is you ignore, or you kill it. Other than that will do no good for the team. And if each perk only have several kinds of zeds to deal with, the whole team can save much more ammo, i.e. much more money. Its just like some sharpshooter shooting every sirens and husks and end up having no ammo for the last few scrakes or fleshpounds. Why dont just let that support do the job? Focus on what your team cannot do well (or not good enough). Letting all those gorefast and bloat distracting you will just let some sneaky crawlers close in sooner or later.

See above.

This statement alone confirms what I said before: You have never played with a good FB.


That means you agree that FB should not waste ammo on bloat and gorefasts. And you say you are a good FB, but you also say FB should be burning gorefasts and bloats...

GROUPS guy, GROUPS. Players with rifles and shotguns can single out a target, FB's ignite GROUPS of zeds. The Flamethrower is an area suppresion weapon.
 
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People UNUSUALLY want to buff the class they like.

Instead of just understanding it's role. I was holding main corridor as FireBug with Commando and SS in Biotic Labs on HoE.
I only level 4, and yet I got most kills. FireBug to me as for weaking middle class enemies (siren and gorefast) and annihilating low class (clots and crawlers)

Could not agree more.
 
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