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Squads and Spawn selection.

And so, my friends, here ends this discussion. I mean, come on, if that doesn't sum up the greater experience of on-line gaming, what does?

What I mean is that there is ALWAYS going to be a retard screwing up the whole game if you give him such power.

Laying smoke is already too hard for most people, so how would you expect them to pick spawns for players? :rolleyes:
 
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It really depends on the map design. Even with selectable spawns, I don't think a level designer (nor me) would want to spread the action too far out, so the objectives and map layout are laid out accordingly.

Even in a lineair map like koningsplatz selectable spawns could just bring some additional diversity in the combat like spawning on the left or right flank. The base idea is making the flow of the map less predictable. If you spectate in koningsplatz (or any other map) you will notice that the majority of the players takes the shortest route to the action.
If there are multiple options where to start then there are multiple shortest routes to the action which can create some more diversity in the overall game.

Next to that In what ways a mapper would or wouldn't use those tools would be up to the mapper. It wouldn't stop the ability to make a map where there is only one spawn.

And as i've said earlier the progression of cap zones of some squads wouldn't necessarily have to be done by a squad leader. It could be done automatically similar to DH maps (like having a left or right squad in the map). Next to that it all depends on how many squads can be formed and how squadleaders get selected and booted. I just think its far too early into the discussion to start talking about details, that do not matter for the actual base suggestion.

If each 'division' has a certain amount of slots, it would be a nice suggestion. You don't want 1 huge division going for the same objective, while the rest of the objectives are not looked at.

Also, maybe if you are in a certain division, you get more points for capping/destroying your main objective, and less points if you assist in a diffirent objective. That way ppl don't wander around the map, and It could get ppl to play more team oriented.

Well this suggestion got nothing to do in general with how many objectives the map got, that would all be up to the mapper to decide. So it could be that everybody is attacking the same place from slightly different sides ( even spawning 25 meters to the left or right of each other would generally make a difference). If the mapper prefers the map to flow like that.

Regarding actual objectives, if a mapper decided to have 3 objectives open at the same time. I don't see why all players should automatically be distributed evenly over the 3 objectives. If the team prefers they should be able to capture everything in a certain order rather than attacking all cap zones at the same time. To keep squads manageable I can understand limiting the min and max sizes for squads. However I think a team should be able to decide in what way and order, they will capture their objectives when multiple cap zones are open at the same time. And I think a team should be able to decide how they will distribute their players over the objectives.

Its exactly variations like that, that make a battle play differently every time you play it.
 
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Even in a lineair map like koningsplatz selectable spawns could just bring some additional diversity in the combat like spawning on the left or right flank. The base idea is making the flow of the map less predictable. If you spectate in koningsplatz (or any other map) you will notice that the majority of the players takes the shortest route to the action.
If there are multiple options where to start then there are multiple shortest routes to the action which can create some more diversity in the overall game.

Next to that In what ways a mapper would or wouldn't use those tools would be up to the mapper. It wouldn't stop the ability to make a map where there is only one spawn.

And as i've said earlier the progression of cap zones of some squads wouldn't necessarily have to be done by a squad leader. It could be done automatically similar to DH maps (like having a left or right squad in the map). Next to that it all depends on how many squads can be formed and how squadleaders get selected and booted. I just think its far too early into the discussion to start talking about details, that do not matter for the actual base suggestion.

Yes, I never said that I'm against such a system, I understand that. I was referring to the post above me, where Ralf said
Also, maybe if you are in a certain division, you get more points for capping/destroying your main objective, and less points if you assist in a diffirent objective. That way ppl don't wander around the map, and It could get ppl to play more team oriented.

My point was that objectives "worth less points" wouldn't really be needed, they all have to be captured anyway, if they're primary objectives, hence the importance of map layout ;)
 
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as with DH teleports......they were nice for seperating armour/infantry spawns and reducing the amount of distance to travel. however for me it killed immersion (i walk through a door that leads me to the battlefield.....what's this the cronicles of narnia? there magical wardrobes here? :rolleyes:). additionally as previously pointed out, spawn rape tends to happen alot as the enemey will see the exact spawn "exits" and on many maps...

hey all,
when i came up with the system used in DH i mostly wanted to render the gameplay more interesting, and i think that succeeded.
the way i had to do it, is the only way i could as a mapper. sure the spawnrooms and teleporters are quite rediculous, but i was surprised how almost automatically people adopted the system. while usually when you try to innovate, players won't make any gifts.

ideally the spawnroom should instead be a menu, where you select your spawn location. i also used the rooms to randomly distribute special weapons like fausts or satchels to players before they enter the battle. instead of distributing them magically in the battle where the enemy has acces to them aswell.

selectable spawns are only better than regular random spawns if you don't use them randomly! wich at least 90% of the players appeard to do anyway, in that my system wasn't perfect as there should be another load of functions and options along with it that help setting up a common strategy. creating a movement behind wich there is an idea, an intelligence.
something where you would know what would be expected of you should you select this or that spawn, so someone should be responsible for those who select a certain spawn. giving them orders and information.
sure that could be spoiled by a 12 year old, but if it is done easy enough, dead simple to use and giving you noticable advantages, then the bulk of players will adopt it automatically, like the DH spawnroom system.
 
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... i also used the rooms to randomly distribute special weapons like fausts or satchels to players before they enter the battle. instead of distributing them magically in the battle where the enemy has access to them as well...

I think this works well on many maps.

--------------------

Not really related to respawning, but:

I wonder if something like this can also be used to treat grenades as special weapons. I was thinking about grenade spam earlier when I read the above.

Also, as it pertains to ROHOS, it might be useful on the distribution of grenades when supplies for one side may be low, such as the Germans in January 1943. Instead of players spawning with grenades (remove them entirely from the player classes), they can be picked up before players move thru the teleport doors (if a DH type system is used) and thus the amount can be semi-controlled by the grenade respawn time instead of limiting them to just certain classes. For units in full supply, the grenades can immediately respawn and be available for pickup. For units in low supply, the time can be longer and less players will be willing to await them and they will just leave the spawn without them. Multiple ammo pickups can be used to prevent crowding. This also prevents just certain classes getting grenades, they are available to all at some point depending if you want to wait and/or the weapon respawn time.

Just a thought...
 
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i agree moe,
though in a proper game you would not use spawnrooms but rather some kind of menu that has the same function.
where you can obviously select a spawn, but theres many things that menu could do aswell, such as giving each player his own personal pool of equipment. lets say at the start of a round each player has 20 nades, 30 magazines and maybe some kind of other weapon. before you spawn you could select the amount of nades and mags and special weapons like a mine or so, that you will take with you in this life. and those things would disappear from your pool for the remaining round.
so that depending of the spawn you will select, the action you will do etc.. you could manage your pool.
 
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some example for the "officer picks your spawn"

you have the overview map

and the reinforcement ways are shown in arrows, like on normal tactical maps we see every time

and he can select an arrow and increase it with a small button or maybe with the mousewheel etc... , when you increase 1 arrow, all others decrease

btw you could give the serveradmin a noobprotection
for example: "officer cant lower arrows to xx%"
Spoiler!

image.php
 
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a squad leader should not have the power in my opinion to manage the entire battlefield. If there is a sole person doing stuff loads can go wrong. Which is why i think multiple small squads with squad leaders with a small amount of power is better.

In my idea pretty much the privileges of the current squad leader get transferred to a platoon leader (like the ability to call artillery). Where as squad leaders are no longer a class but purely a function (aka even a rifleman or a sniper could be a squad leader).

By separating the class from the function will make sure that people do not take a squad leader just for the cool weaponry and artillery abilities. And could allow for voting for a squad leader within an individual squad itself.

This allows that if one squad leader is a complete douche bag that users could select a different squad leader to play with. And that a squad could vote for someone else to be the squad leader without having to force someone off his class.

Players should I think have the freedom to fight with whom they want to fight and follow who they want to follow. Too much hierarchy is bad for a public game. Although In for example realism unit matches it could have its purpose.
 
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Here are some spawning options that some of you might not have come across if you haven't played DH or browsed the DH forums:

  • Spawn contains transports/planes: entering one causes you to exit a matching one at a particular place on the map. This lets players get to where they need to go without too much of a break in realism.
  • 'Cappable' spawn exits: The door to leave the initial spawn room is locked until it has been capped; the more people present, the faster it will open. This helps to make sure that those respawning exit as a groups, as well as giving them time to decide what they are going to do. (Optional: have instant respawns, but players will be held in a transport with all of the noise and motion of travel, until it 'arrives'. Having an actual vehicle is a viable option, as long as the NPC driver stops when ordered to, and/or the travel route is fairly well secured.)
  • Mobile Spawn Vehicles: special transports that can only be driven by officer/squad leaders/etc. Anyone entering a marked area at spawn will be teleported to a seat in the matching vehicle. Players tend to group up more, leaders have more say in how the battle is directed, and the flow of battle is given more of a random element, because the enemy has the added task of hunting down and destroying the MSV's
  • Para Drop Smoke Grenade: Officer/squad leaders/etc. have a special smoke grenade that 'calls in reinforcements.' (i.e. while it is active, anyone entering a plane at spawn will find themselves parachuting down somewhere above the smoke, after the smoke has been active for a certain length of time.) This allows players to respawn together, anywhere on the map, though the smoke will give away their location, and they can be killed while coming down.
  • Double-cap zones: The first cap is fairly fast, but still gives time for the owners to teleport in and defend the zone. Once it is capped, the defender's teleport door closes, and the attacker's opens. The second cap is a long one, and gives time for defenders to move in to defend it. This really helps to concentrate battle on open maps.
  • Objective Based Spawns: Anyone entering this type of spawn exit will be taken directly to the objective, where they are given an order, such as 'guard this tank'. If they are killed while obeying the order, they get a reduced respawn time if they use the same exit again. If they fail, they get a substantially increased respawn time for their next life (based on died while obeying the order, and how long they did so). This can be used to make a particular objective very difficult to take, though taking it gives attackers a good boost because of the sudden, temporary sparsity of defenders.
  • Fallback Points: An squad leader can designate a particular location as a fallback point, where he and his squad can respawn to. However, it is treated as a temporary cap zone. Any enemies entering it can cap it in 20 seconds, though they will receive no notice of it until it has been capped, whereupon they get a notification that they 'discovered an enemy fallback point', and get points for it. No squad members can teleport in while it is in conflict, or for 20 seconds after. The squad leader will simply get a notification that it 'has been compromised', if it has been capped and destroyed. Again, this will allow members of a squad to stick together better, though care must be taken to prevent the enemy from find it, and players teleported there can be killed quickly.
(Yes, I realize that there will be noobs and griefers who will spoil things; so what else is new? That is why it is vital that RO2 have voteclasskick and voteclasssessionban commands, so other players can remove those who aren't using their classes properly.)
 
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Kicking people for being inept - and I'm not talking about team-killing, which is a different matter altogether - is utterly unrealistic and shouldn't be a part of the game.

How many **** officers got voted out during the War? Not that many I'd wager.

Well, in 'nam they had a system of kickvote known as a fragging.
 
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Kicking people for being inept - and I'm not talking about team-killing, which is a different matter altogether - is utterly unrealistic and shouldn't be a part of the game.

How many **** officers got voted out during the War? Not that many I'd wager.
Ummm... Unrealistic? Pray tell me in which war did an officer repeatedly drop arty on his own troops because he didn't know how to use it properly, refused to learn, and HQ did nothing about it? How many tankers took the only available tank and charged the enemy base, trying to run down everyone they could? Removing military personnel from their position for being that inept is completely realistic.

Plus, I'm not talking about kicking them out of the game, just that particular class. Likewise, voteclasssessionban simply removes them from that class, then prevents them from choosing that particular role until the next round.

This has already been spoken about in the DH forums, so I'll just quote what I said there.
DeadlyDad said:
Here's my take on it: There are few things more frustrating for a team than someone wasting a specialist class like tanker and costing them the game. I don't have any problem with someone who isn't effective in a particular role and is willing to learn, but someone who is spoiling the game for their entire team by wasting their effectiveness while totalling ignoring any advice? That I do have a problem with. Many maps are designed for the specialist class(es) to play a large role in the victory, and having a single person make it almost impossible for one side to win simply isn't fair to the entire team. There was an issue in Hurtgenwald a while ago, which some guy started because he kept wasting tanks and wouldn't listen to anyone's advice on how tanks should be used (e.g. support infantry from behind them, don't close with enemy infantry in a closed environment, etc.). Unfortunately, 'voteclasskick' has yet to be implemented, so there was nothing that players without admin could do about the situation. After giving him advice on better tanking didn't change how he played, and asking him to switch to another class didn't work, I simply gave him an ultimatum: change class, or I would kick him, then kick him again if, when he came back, he chose a tanker class again. The idea was simply to give someone else a chance to use that specialist class properly, and allow him to continue playing as something else. Unfortunately for him, his actions in response to my ultimatum prompted a session ban.

Was I wrong in deciding to kick someone, not for breaking any rules, but 'just' for spoiling the game for his team? I don't think so. People play games for fun, and losing a match because one person wants to be a jackass leaves them feeling frustrated and angry. This guy was given plenty of chances to change how he played and become more effective, but he chose not to. What right does he have to ruin a game for his entire team? None, in my opinion.

If you disagree with me, that's fine; I don't expect everyone to. OTOH, once he was gone and someone else took his place, the Allies were finally able to push forward and make it all the way to the last cap before the timer ran out.
 
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