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Squad system is terrible

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#41
MadTommy said:
Bloody hell.. what a bunch on cry babies!

If you don't like to spawn on the SL don't do it. :rolleyes:
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You're missing the point. They want the gamey ability to spawn anywhere on the map... they just want to be perfectly safe when they do so :rolleyes:

The squad system can certainly be improved but don't throw out the baby with the bath water!
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Exactly. In reality, a "squad" is a group of people working together. You do not need ANY game mechanics to have that. You could have no game based squads at all, and teams could still self orgnise into squads.

It's just that people are totally unable to think for themselves AND work as part of a team. They either need their hands held... or total freedom.

It's just that in this game when they try to work by themselves, they get owned. So what people are REALLY saying is "please force my team mates to play the way I want them to, but don't make ME play they way THEY want."

They want personal rewards for team play. It's pure selfishness, and its why they suck at the game.
 
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#42
KarmakazeNZ said:
You're missing the point. They want the gamey ability to spawn anywhere on the map... they just want to be perfectly safe when they do so :rolleyes:

Exactly. In reality, a "squad" is a group of people working together. You do not need ANY game mechanics to have that. You could have no game based squads at all, and teams could still self orgnise into squads.

It's just that people are totally unable to think for themselves AND work as part of a team. They either need their hands held... or total freedom.

It's just that in this game when they try to work by themselves, they get owned. So what people are REALLY saying is "please force my team mates to play the way I want them to, but don't make ME play they way THEY want."

They want personal rewards for team play. It's pure selfishness, and its why they suck at the game.
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I know from experience that in games, sometimes it's very hard to get into teamplay when there's a bad squad system - but more so, a bad interface.

If I cannot keep up with my teammates, and I cannot keep track of where they are easily and quickly, Then working together can become a task, especially in pub games.

Even when you know the people and can be talking, I can still get split up, lost and end up on my own due to bad design around those areas during a firefight.

The system itself seems lacking, It's better than what there was in Ostfront, but it could still be better.

We don't need to have our hands held to do this, we just need more refined tools at our disposal that are easier, but more importantly, faster and simpler to use. Complexity often doesn't work with teamwork in multiplayer games, perversely that is a complex squad will work better with simple mechanics to keep them together.

People don't have to take part in the teamwork, but inadequate tools make it much harder for those that do.
 
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#43
KarmakazeNZ said:
Why do you need extra XP or some other personal benefit before you play as part of a team? It seems to me that what you are saying is you are selfish, and unless you get extra benefits you are not going to work with your team.

/QUOTE]

Well frankly, some people do not KNOW how to work with a team.

Earning points for sticking near your team is a reinforcer for future teamwork. The player earning points will be much more likely to follow his team in the future knowing he gets points for tagging along (much like how a dog knows to walk with his master as there are benefits even doggy treat rewards for doing so).

Other people are simply points oriented, and the thought of earning points can keep them with their squad.
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#44
My vote would be for the following:

-Spawn right on the squad leader BUT ONLY when he did not have any enemies within X radius (obviously would need to do some playtesting to figure out what a good figure for that radius would be - it would have to be big enough that it wouldn't give away enemy positions but small enough that mobile spawning wouldn't be constantly off) and ONLY if he had not come under fire for a couple of seconds.

-The game would also need a new device for clearly showing you if you leader was currently spawnable or not. Right now, short of seeing the squad leader die, you never really know if its going to work or not. For example if the leader was not spawnable text could come up that specified "Squad Leader spawning suppressed" and perhaps the follow screen would go black and white until safe again.
 
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#45
KarmakazeNZ said:
Hmmm let me see.. regardless of any game mechanic, working as part of a squad is fun. All of you here seem to want to do it. So why do you need a special feature of the game? Can't you work as part of a team without having to be bribed?

Why do you need extra XP or some other personal benefit before you play as part of a team? It seems to me that what you are saying is you are selfish, and unless you get extra benefits you are not going to work with your team.

It just sounds stupid to me that people keep asking for rules to be put in place to force them to do the things they WANT to do.

Doesn't that sound ridiculous to you?
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It's not rules, hoss, just a UI redesign. It's not as easy to organize tactics in-game as you'd think. Why do you think Halo or Counterstrike or CoD never have any sort of team play? There is absolutely no interface to accommodate it or reason for it to be useful.

RO2 is a STRONLY team based game, and as such it needs some strong tools to help everyone, from clans to pubbies, coordinate and work together. They tried to give it to us, but in it's current state it's a mess.

If they made the commands more obvious and cleaned up the map and tac overlay, I think that a lot more people would be willing to form ad hoc teams on the fly. It's fun to work together as a group, especially when you kick *** and have a plan come together with some buddies. Why should this be stuck to the realm of those with clan forums and Teamspeak servers? Give the players the tools and they will do it themselves!
 
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#47
Imo we need:
-BF2 spawns on SL w/ maybe a bigger enemy in radius check
-Squad VOIP, with something to indicate whos talking
-Additional points for doing stuff while near squad memberz

ATM squad leader is only a, very, unreliable spawn point and thats it.. there's no way he can easily give orders or talk to his SM's trying to organize anything. As it was alrdy said here and QFT'd a million times, you can remove the squad system and no1 will miss it as it is.
 
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#48
As mentioned.. a Squad VOIP channel is essential.

Josef Nader said:
Way to not read the thread.

We're moaning about the command interface being obtuse and difficult to use, so hard to figure out that nobody pays attention to it, and there is very little reward for people working as a team. Only a few people have moaned about spawning on the SL, and they were quickly hushed.
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Clearly i was referring to the people who were asking for the SL spawn to be removed. (and other elements)

But thanks, you did put a smile on my face by questioning my ability to read English with a sentence starting with 'way', shame you missed the 'dude' off the end. :D
 
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#49
dweeb said:
My vote would be for the following:

-Spawn right on the squad leader BUT ONLY when he did not have any enemies within X radius (obviously would need to do some playtesting to figure out what a good figure for that radius would be - it would have to be big enough that it wouldn't give away enemy positions but small enough that mobile spawning wouldn't be constantly off) and ONLY if he had not come under fire for a couple of seconds.
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don't worry too much about the radius thing, that still has the problem of spawning at the far end of a long road under mg fire (at least you can take some of the enemy with you though, when they walk in front of their mg :D ). Wouldn't mind if it was a bit closer to killing floor's, at least I didn't have to see the zeds spawn in that (with the notable exceptions eg office roof)
 
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#51
I agree, the squad system need some serious fixes or should be completely redone.
Zetsumei said:
Currently the squad system could be completely removed and nobody would notice it. It got exactly 0% effect on game play, which is too bad as I hoped that it would be one of the things that would improve public game play.
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Can't agree with that. I've been playing SL a lot lately and a good SL with a couple of good players in his squad can win games for the whole team. Even without using voice chat and by typing basic things like "lets flank from the left" in squad chat can sometimes get some pretty nice cooperation going.
 
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#52
mechanicalDR said:
I suggested a mod idea that would actually enforce squads. If a player strayed too far away from their leader they would temporarily turn into a bot that would travel back into range of the leader. Of course this would only be for a single life skirmish type game, can't really apply it to the chaos that is Red Orchestra pub territory. I would play the heck out of a larger map arma style skirmish though. Wishful thinking. Would be like playing Advance Squad Leader as a single man. Are there any games that actually have squad tactics?
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I'm sorry, but this is a bad idea. What happens if my SL instructs me to flank an enemy position? Does he have to switch that option off? A proximity test would just over-complicate the matter and take the minds of the squad in question, off of their real goal.

A good squad will fight together properly anyway. A bad squad deserves what is coming to them. :)
 
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#53
Suggestion

Suggestion

Suggestion: Show location of squad mates when you press T

So when you press T you see the attack/defand locations & where your squad are.

I prefer to play on full realism servers without minimaps or name tags but i still want to be able to stick with my squad.. but to do this i need help!
 
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#55
smokeythebear said:
-Spawning on the squad leader will often throw you into the middle of the open. Even if the SL is safe in a second story of a building you get put in the middle of the ****ing street.
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Seriously on this one. In BFBC2(red headed bastard step child of BF2) when you span on the SL you spawn real close to them, and in the same position. If they are prone, you spawn already prone.
To have a mate spawn on me 10' on the other side of a wall from me out in the open is a bad plan. It makes them an instant target and gives away that a SL is in the area.

smokeythebear said:
-The setup of squads is terrible. Just have squads that you can join regardless of weapon class. There is zero need to have psuedo realism in joining a squad because noone in a public game is ever going to play like that. When making a realism match people will be able to set up squads how they like so it's really just a stupid terrible feature.
-What is the logic of having a rifle only squad? To add more rifles to the game? It just adds another squad leader with a semi or automatic. Whatever happened to 70+% of soldiers in ww2 having bolts?
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Well i do see what they were trying to do here...I think.
The bolt action only squad is the defense squad. They may not have an MG, but a building full of dug in bolt actions can hold off the enemy quite well.

I am figuring they thought if peeps could fully control the squads no one would make the defense squad on their own. Or something like that anyway. I'm not saying it;s the best idea i have ever seen, but i think i can see what they wanted to try and do with the preset squad class thing.

smokeythebear said:
-I forgot another huge issue is it's not clear if your SL is alive to spawn on or not and sometimes you will just end up in the normal spawn regardless.
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Yes they do need something in here to let players know before hand where they will spawn. Like the bad plan in BFBC2 if you can't spawn where you asked to they just spawn you where they want to instead of sending you back to the selection screen. I suppose this may have something to do with spawn time windows. Perhaps players sent back to select again may miss their window and have to wait until the next one(which they would be in here complaining about i am sure). Still it kind of stinks.
 
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#58
when spawning at ur sqleader and ur sqleader is for example fighting in a building, his room is clear but the next room has some enemys in it,
it sometimes happens that u spawn in the room with the enemys probably behind theyre backs and youll just kill them without any problems
had that a few times and also saw some ppl spawning right in front of me o_O

i think u should only be able to spawn at ur sqleader if there are no enemy in a radius around him!
 
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#60
Whilst i do agree that the squad system does need alot of work, especially the spawning on your squad leader. Sometimes i don't even notice its done it because its spawned me so far from him/her i might as well have spawned at one of the bases.

I do think they should be in the game though. I was playing on Pavlov's House earlier today and i decided to play as Squad Leader for once. In doing so, i managed to get a bunch of other pugs to join my squad and was managing to sneak into Zab's House and the Blue Building (can't remember the name but its one of the latter objectives for the Allies) and then getting my squad to spawn on me so as to have extra manpower on the objective to try and capture it. Currently its been my first and only win as Allies on Pavlov's House.

Whilst what i've mentioned was a rarity of a decent bunch of gamers, it did take alot of hard work to actually get going as alot of people we reluctant to follow the squad leaders orders.

Maybe if they implement a system similar to Bad Company 2 (i can't believe im actually taking an idea from that horrid console port) but where you can tell your squad to attack or defend a certain objective and in doing so you are rewarded with more points/experience? Abit like how you earn extra points if you protect your squad leader or team leader.
 
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