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Ok treading on a sensitive issue here... The Medic & The Zerker.

Yes your point is hard to grasp. Your remaining adament that the Zerker should not be nerfed because he would be useless.

My argument is he doesn't need to be the rambo class to be useful.

I remember when I played on the frontline for the team. I didn't have a problem dodging majority of the attacks thrown at me. In fact I found that I performed quite well at beating back the horde and keeping my allies relatively safe, and that was with only 25% damage resistance and 20% speed. That is the skill of the perk, being able to deflect aggro and avoid taking damage.

His speed is a tool for closing the gap TO specimens, not a crutch to allow him to run miles away.

The point of this whole debate is the Berserker can take on everything, he has no reason to stay with his team. This, as I have sauid time and time again, is completely against the point of the game. So the points that I am recommending for the Berserker are: -
- Keep his damage resistance, this helps him work on the front line and keep aggro off his teammates
- Drop his speed a touch to either 25% or 20% to match the Medic, this encourages him to stay with the team since he isn't so proficient at running away and healing.
- Make the Fleshpound rage mechanics non explotable so he cannot solo the wave alone. This further encourages him to stay with his teammates who CAN deal with the Fleshpound.

If you want to believe that making him anything other than a solo survivor class will make the perk useless then fair play to you.

Me, I strongly believe the class can be worked into the Killing Floor team based demographic and serve an important role doing so, and this is the way to do it.

Oh, that is just awful. Too bad Friendly Fire wasn't on, you could've sniped his butt...
Poor Jester. Have an e-cookie for that person's jerkness. *Gives cookie*

Thanks btw :)

*munch* *munch* *munch*

Aww man I go e-crumbs all over my shirt...
 
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Your remaining adament that the Zerker should not be nerfed because he would be useless.

No, I remain adamant that the zerker should not be nerfed with your kind of goal in mind because it's either just wishful thinking (you know, just like that whole "no one single player in any given situation should ever be able to solo a pound" dogma. It just doesn't happen and never will and if it ever did, the game would be plain unbeatable) or a complete perk overhaul (which I have no idea what it would entail).
Either way is pretty significant with much potential not to go into a healthy direction.

The 1014 zerker had, if I remember correctly, 25% runspeed and 25% damage reduction and there was still nothing that forced them to stick to the team after all.
By formulating the goal of "he needs to be sticking to the team. Otherwise, I'm not happy", you imply you'd want to go below even that and -while I do in fact not agree with the damage reduction or the speed buff myself- that is kind of overkill.

My argument is he doesn't need to be the rambo class to be useful.

And mine is that he can't be useful/viable without also happening to be a potentially good rambo class.

His speed is a tool for closing the gap TO specimens, not a crutch to allow him to run miles away.
See, this is exactly where it falls apart.
There is no sepparate "run from enemies speed" and "run to enemies speed". There's just speed, the rest is a player decision.
Besides, the zerker speed is a tool to avoid damage you know so it's not even that simple.
 
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Alright fine, I concede that even with my speed alteration he is still going to be a decent rambo class.

However I'm going to bring it back to this Fleshpound rage mechanic fix. If he cannot solo a Fleshpound then going off alone in waves 7 and above fixes majority of the problem. (These are the waves that cause the most frustration)

The only perks that should be able to solo the Fleshpound are the Demo, and (with difficulty) the Sharpshooter and Support Specialist. This is already the case. The Berserker is not needed as a class that can solo pounds.

So if you agree that the Berserker can function in the way I have described, having the Fleshpound fixed to discourage Berserker ramboing takes care of this issue nicely. Correct?



I'm still going to say 30% is too high for any class though. Heck even 25% might be too high. I've seen plenty of Medics and Zerkers running in circles around a small object like a car to keep out of sight of the patty and just keep Xbow popping him until dead.

Xbow is nerfed now so its not so much of a problem, but the patty can be outrun with 25% speed and certainly 30%
 
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So if you agree that the Berserker can function in the way I have described, having the Fleshpound fixed to discourage Berserker ramboing takes care of this issue nicely. Correct?

I have suggested that myself. That would make zerkers run to the team instead of whipping out their axes in my opinion.
At least in later waves.

Then people disagreed because you could still take the hit and heal up and take another hit for half an hour to kill that one pound as if the sheer possibility itself made it a viable, reliable option.
Nothing is too impractical in all those hypothetical games that spread like cancer full of mostly berserkers who kill everything everyone else but me apparently has lately.
 
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Hold up a second, so we've been arguing the same side this whole time?

No bloody wonder this is going nowhere.

So in regard to this fleshpound fix: -
- Regular attacks from the fleshpound do not reset the rage timer. (Successful rage attacks will).
- Rage timer for losing Line of Sight only pauses, not resets.
- Even if somehow the Fleshpound hasn't raged but has recieved 50% damage over the course of its unraged state it will rage automatically

Zerker side, take him down this notch to 25% or 20% so he has good speed instead of this insane speed.

Otherwise everything remains unchanged. Far as I see, should stop this unreal Zerker kiting a decent degree and keep everyone happy. In theory the Zerker won't have time to heal up fully for a second rage off the fleshpound, and even if he does he can't keep stepping in and dodging his swings before the FP rages. You reckon?
 
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You wanted the medic and the zerker to be on the same level in terms of speed in your OP.
Well the changelog agrees with you which means actual 25% for both, not kindasorta 25-ish% for the medic and 30% for the zerker.

Speed also doesn't matter if pounds actually rage.
If there's no trick to constantly keep them from raging, they'll get you eventually.
If you get ouchies, you'll move slower anyway.
You'll also want to whip the syringe out at some point which slows you down even more and if you move slow, you're a victim.
As for everything else, you should probably not be slower than pre-patch.
 
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You wanted the medic and the zerker to be on the same level in terms of speed in your OP.
Well the changelog agrees with you which means actual 25% for both, not kindasorta 25-ish% for the medic and 30% for the zerker.

Speed also doesn't matter if pounds actually rage. They get you.
As for everything else, you should probably not be slower than pre-patch.

Well the issue with this 30% speed the Berserker is still very beastly. As I said earlier simply nothing can catch him. Its not really a just the case that the Berserker can take on Fleshpounds alone, although that is by far the biggest problem.

The side issue is the fact that there isn't really anything short of a Fleshpound that poses a credible threat to him.

Spoiler!

Even with his weakness estabished against Fleshpounds, he can still run through everything else with relatively little fear. Even taking his speed down by just 5% would at least make Crawlers, Sirens and Husks a little more effective. Persoanlly I'd go further and drop his damage resistance down a peg too but theres already been enough ragng over that.

So yeah I still stand by making Medic + Zerker the same speed. I mean lets face it there were fair few people who felt the Berserker didn't need any buff other than bringing the Chainsaw back into the fray.
 
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Yes, but if Player A dies about the same time from clot grab or scrakes...you see, its not really a "speed=OP" situation anymore.

That isn't an equal comparison. That is like saying a person with a BB gun and a person with a suitcase nuke will do the same amount of damage if they are both dead. Survivability and other factors play into the equation. Don't forget the huge healing amount and recharge abilty as well.

Anyway, I'm glad someone agrees with me about the Magnetic Clot Grab. :)

As for your second point, I find that quite untrue. The MP79 is buggy as hell, the syringe is often required when both your shots hit an invisible wall 5 feet from the player, and often times the team is spread out or around corners; unless you are in a tight, compact space, then you will probably need the speed to get from injured player to injured player quickly. But of course, whenever would you run into a team that isnt perfectly aligned in a straight line to heal?:rolleyes:

Don't go near the medic, please.

There has to be some balance to remote heals. Players need to be aware when the medic is targeting them. Players need to be aware where the medic is and not dodge the medic's darts. The team needs to stick together. There should be a penalty for the player who runs off. The reckless player who runs off and is constantly dodging 50 feet away should receive less healing than the team player who is fighting 10 feet away.

Every ability has to have a positive as well as a negative for it to work. Zerker still doesn't have a negative.

The medic doesn't need, require, or have a reason for the excessive speed now.
 
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Even with his weakness estabished against Fleshpounds, he can still run through everything else with relatively little fear.

That's the truth. I was just playing biotics on HoE and I got pushed out. I had to run through that room to the left of spawn and there were 4 gorefasts then a single clot in the room. The most dangerous specimen in the room? The clot past the 4 gorefasts. Zerker doesn't have to ever worry about those.
 
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That isn't an equal comparison. That is like saying a person with a BB gun and a person with a suitcase nuke will do the same amount of damage if they are both dead. Survivability and other factors play into the equation. Don't forget the huge healing amount and recharge abilty as well.

Anyway, I'm glad someone agrees with me about the Magnetic Clot Grab. :)



There has to be some balance to remote heals. Players need to be aware when the medic is targeting them. Players need to be aware where the medic is and not dodge the medic's darts. The team needs to stick together. There should be a penalty for the player who runs off. The reckless player who runs off and is constantly dodging 50 feet away should receive less healing than the team player who is fighting 10 feet away.

Every ability has to have a positive as well as a negative for it to work. Zerker still doesn't have a negative.

The medic doesn't need, require, or have a reason for the excessive speed now.

So you are saying that the medic should be basically quartered if his team isn't 100% in line (aka he is playing in most games)?

And nonetheless, it also isn't just players who run off. I'm talking about camping areas where if you don't haul arse from one half to the other, you are dead. Its the speed of the medic that allows him to react fast to a teams problems, and act as a good medic to viable problems (unless the medic is supposed to prophetically sense danger or perhaps teleport to teammates).

And, don't forget, that the medic's speed makes it so that he doesn't have to plop down in a corner and wait for 20 minutes for something to happen, get there barely in time due to slow speeds, and then return to hibernation. This allows the medic to be proactive to secure the flanks, be able to view multiple areas and assess the situation. Removing the speed considerably limits this, and cuts off a massive chunk of the medic role, making it, to be honest, a really dull perk that does nothing.

And on top of it, I'll admit it: I don't like where it's going. It just seems like an unnessecary nerfing (and a considerable one too....I mean, taking away the commando's stalker sight would be less damaging) to a perk that only USED to be OP. And down that road one might ask : "why does he need the armor" and finally "why do we even have the medic perk" at which point it will become "dead" and screw the balancing system horribly.

So that's personally why I think that randomly throwing wrenches into the medic system and screaming "Viva la Killing Floor" is a revoloution destined to shoot itself in the foot.:D
 
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So you are saying that the medic should be basically quartered if his team isn't 100% in line (aka he is playing in most games)?

Come on now. This has been a good discussion (ignoring some people) so far. No need to act like that.

The medic can heal people 200 feet away. The medic can heal someone 50 feet away and then immediately heal someone else 50 feet away in the opposite direction. All of the other players should adhere to good teamplay behaviors and if someone wants to run off then they should suffer the consequences.

The medic's strengths should be defensive and right now the medic is the second best offensive perk.

Anyway, don't worry about nerfing the medic. All of this talk is just academic. There was just a rebalancing and I doubt there will ever be another one. The way the classes are now will be the way they will stay.

BTW, he needs the armor buff because he is /the/ defensive class.
 
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Berserkers weaknesses traditionally were the Fleshpound, Siren, and later on the Husk. (Crawlers could be taken on quite happily if you knew what you were doing as a Berserker).

Lol what? Crawlers again is easy for berserkers IF YOU RAMBO. Because you outrun them. But if you stick with the team, you get hit ALL THE TIME. You simply dont have the space to kite. If you try to dodge crawlers, you are not doing your job of holding the line or due with any scrakes or fleshpounds spawn.

WHY IN THE WORLD people always like to use rambos as example? That's NOT THE PROPER way to play.

- Nowadays his higher damage resistance makes the burn out from husks significantly less effective so they merely serve as a nuisance

Really? I always think the real problem is husks BLIND YOU. If husks dont blind you, you dont need to be a berserker to survive. Because you just kill everything small and run away from bigs. And if a husk blind you so that gorefasts gets their surround, they can drop your health to zero on HoE in 2 second even you are a berserker.

- His speed makes it much harder for Sirens to really get a good hit on him, and even if they do (unlike the Medic) the damage reduction have a signifiant effect on how much damage he takes.

Same as crawlers... if you stick with the team and you see sirens and back off, those who stand in the front will die. Thats why you either be a ranged class to gun down everything with teamates or be the so called "tank perk" to tank some damage, including husks and sirens.

- Fleshpounds, sure he can't take on blindly, and it does require some skill to take on the fleshpound... but the problem with this expolit is even if you make a mistake there is still a big margin for error. The Zerker will not be killed instantly by 1 hit and can still move fast enough to stay out of the Fleshies range when wounded, giving him time to heal. Again due to his buffed resistance and speed.

What's wrong with that? Really? Survive ONE hit as a class supposed to tank some damage (and anything more hiting you will kill you)... I fail to see the problem. If you will also be instan-killed, you have no choice but to back off if you see a fleshpound, and this makes the line you are holding breaks. Zeds start to swarm in.

Again, WHY USE SOLO OR RAMBO AS EXAMPLE?
 
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Come on now. This has been a good discussion (ignoring some people) so far. No need to act like that.

The medic can heal people 200 feet away. The medic can heal someone 50 feet away and then immediately heal someone else 50 feet away in the opposite direction. All of the other players should adhere to good teamplay behaviors and if someone wants to run off then they should suffer the consequences.

The medic's strengths should be defensive and right now the medic is the second best offensive perk.

Anyway, don't worry about nerfing the medic. All of this talk is just academic. There was just a rebalancing and I doubt there will ever be another one. The way the classes are now will be the way they will stay.

BTW, he needs the armor buff because he is /the/ defensive class.

I was just being that way to show how frustrating it would be to play public as a medic with no speed boost. Medic darts rarely hit their mark, teams are naturally spread out, and medics often do recon work, surveillence, and generally oversee the teams overall condition. It would be tough, making an already difficult perk even more difficult to play.

And while I appreciate that you are looking at ways to preserve the medic, armor boosting, I worry, may conotate to some that it is now a tanking perk. I'm just saying that the medic perk in particular is very sensitive, between the bugs, and the fact that it may possibly be the most team-reliant in role, so you have to look out for more than just the medics for elite, well organized teams. That, and I think I'm coming down with something, so sorry if I got snappish :eek:

I like how you are looking at the medic though. And its nice to see a discussion with less zerker-freakout.:D
 
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Just throwing this out there, but what if the Berzerker's speed bonus were tied to a stamina meter? Say, for every 3 seconds of movement when running you lose 1% of your speed bonus with a minimum of regular movement speed, regained by standing still for 1.5 seconds (or some other appropriately balanced numbers). Balance it so that a zerker in a straight sprint is only slight faster than a Firebug when you factor in these necessary stops to keep his speed up, but you can still rebound between targets quickly as long as you stop every once in a while and let your teammates cover you while you catch your breath/heal up. Kiting a single, lone FP would still be possible (maybe) but you'd be out of your speed bonus at the end of the action and be stuck with a giant "Clot Bait" sign.
 
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Just throwing this out there, but what if the Berzerker's speed bonus were tied to a stamina meter? Say, for every 3 seconds of movement when running you lose 1% of your speed bonus with a minimum of regular movement speed, regained by standing still for 1.5 seconds (or some other appropriately balanced numbers). Balance it so that a zerker in a straight sprint is only slight faster than a Firebug when you factor in these necessary stops to keep his speed up, but you can still rebound between targets quickly as long as you stop every once in a while and let your teammates cover you while you catch your breath/heal up. Kiting a single, lone FP would still be possible (maybe) but you'd be out of your speed bonus at the end of the action and be stuck with a giant "Clot Bait" sign.

IMO, flashlight battery meters, stamina meters, and etc only make games more annoying, not more fun. It's a game mechanic that is overused and completely unnecessary. In fact, in this game, more people would probably use the flashlight on the pistol and the shotgun if it didn't have the battery. And I see nothing wrong with that.

Again, I don't see how making the only way to kill the fleshpound to unload on him makes the game more fun. My game has never been ruined when a berserker goes off on his own. Chances are he will die anyways when he does this because there will be no one with him to create the one on one situation with the fleshpound anyways.
 
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IMO, flashlight battery meters, stamina meters, and etc only make games more annoying, not more fun. It's a game mechanic that is overused and completely unnecessary. In fact, in this game, more people would probably use the flashlight on the pistol and the shotgun if it didn't have the battery. And I see nothing wrong with that.

I agree entirely. The flashlight mechanic in KF is one of my biggest pet peeves. It's not like it helps aiming that much.
 
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If I'm not mistaken, didn't that insta-decap thread contain a post by a Yoshiro (?) or Xienen (?) stating they wanted zerker to have a chance against the fp? That thread's been deleted so we'll never know for sure.

Surprisingly I was able to find that post by Ramm on their stance for zerker vs. FP.

We want them to be able to be decapitated. It gives the melee class a chance against them. It also helps other classes that don't have extremely powerful weapons. We just don't want them one shot decapped with a knife in one hit :)

No Fleshpound 1 hit decaps with a knife are not an intended feature. Its a very hard to reproduce bug. Its so hard, that no one here can ever get it to happen but once in a blue moon. If anyone knows a 100% (or heck even 50%) reproduction of how to make it happen, let us know, because we can't do it. (And yes we have seen the youtube videos, and tried to do it over and over again).

I don't believe their stance on zerker vs. fp has changed. As mentioned before, when Entangler and I brought up the damage accumulator problems to Xienen during the beta testing, he had to look at the code for the rage mechanics. The only change he made then was to fix the accumulator adding in the correct damage. He could have easily removed melee strikes against the fp all together with a simple check to see if the attack was a melee weapon.

Also, you've been able to melee fleshpounds since the level up update, which is when the insta-decap ability was removed. This leads me to believe the insta-decap was replaced with the melee strikes to the head method.
 
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What's wrong with that? Really? Survive ONE hit as a class supposed to tank some damage (and anything more hiting you will kill you)... I fail to see the problem. If you will also be instan-killed, you have no choice but to back off if you see a fleshpound, and this makes the line you are holding breaks. Zeds start to swarm in.

Again, WHY USE SOLO OR RAMBO AS EXAMPLE?

tbh mate I've regurgetated the same arguements over and over.

I personally found no problem being a Berserker on the front line of my team. Just like the Firebug its all about learning specimen behaviour and using tricks to your advantage.

Apparantly I'm 1 of the 0.01% who can. Fang has made an awesome trailer which I hope he doens't mind me posting for this point. But its all about timing

link edited, see below

But whatever, I don't feel like arguing anymore. I've made my point clear. I feel the berserker is overpowered.

End of.

EDIT: Posted Fang's video in the tactics thing actually, its really good :)

http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=50009

Check it out
 
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