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Cover system

One thing critical for me is that I hope that I can disable the decrease in mouse speed when going behind some cover and resting my weapon.

If there is a mouse speed decrease allow people at least to change it in their ini files to possibly remove it. Suddenly having a drop in mouse speed makes playing a game harder than it should be.
 
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You use your proprioceptive input while gaming. And your muscle memory.

In the real world you know at all times that how fast you move your arm and where it is in space. With a game you don't.

This means that the most natural way to control your character is to make it like an extension of your arm. So that you learn that a certain movement of your arm corresponds to a certain movement of your character.

If your mouse suddenly moves faster or slower then you loose that control something that never happens in real life unless you have a weird illness. Again for some people it could be nice so they can take a more accurate shot when behind cover, for others its just plain annoying.

If you want to limit someone's range of motion do it by pulling the weapon away when you cant move any more or automatically unrest it. But when you are pivoting around your hand its not suddenly that moving your hand goes twice as slow.

Feedback is critical to a games feel, and I think that a players character should feel natural and intuitive. If a character is distanced too far from the controller things will feel off. This is for me one of the major issues with ArmA for me and with mouse acceleration or changes in mouse speed.
 
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I prefer lower mouse sensitivity if the weapon is rested, it increases your ability to be accurate and represents increased concentration, like the "focus" or slight zoom you get when going into iron sights.

The downside of keeping the mouse speed the same is that the player could move the weapon in a really unrealistic way i.e really sharp & fast movements whilst the weapon is rested.
That could be remedied by having the mouse speed the same, but if you move the mouse too fast the player un-rests the weapon - but that sounds irritating.
 
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I would like it to be optional.

Perhaps someone could use it to make super fast movements but on the other hand what if you have people like me that play on a really slow mouse speed all the time slowing it even further down makes it near impossible to do something.

If the idea is to restrict to motion of someone then simply if someone moves too big of an angle that he should no longer be rested. Because when you are pivoting around something your motion is constrained in how far it can go. But its not you suddenly have something like friction pulling on your gun it would closer be to the other side.

Lowering the mouse speed automatically can be nice for some but it should be an option. If you want you can still make quick 360 turns or whatever, the only thing it does is give an advantage to players with a high mouse speed and a disadvantage to players with a low mouse speed.
 
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Supression has alreadly been discussed ad nauseum just a short while ago. (Or perhaps the thread got locked.) Anyway, this topic is/was about the cover system, not supression.

Thank you, I am aware of this.... my point in relating to both suppression and cover scripts is the same.... in that they don't add anything to the overall game play.

I'm not trying to be a asshat. Its just that the supression thread went on and on and on and covered just about every aspect of suppression one could imagine. No need to clutter up another thread with what has already been discussed at great length.

Just mho.....
Well I just came back today from not posting for a few months so I can't say I was aware of what all recently took place.... pardon my ignorance.

But it was not my intention to drag this into a suppression debate, I just used suppression and my opinion of it to relate to the cover system...... and used the leaning system I also noted.

Just because there was a debate on the suppression system not too long ago, doesn't mean we're not allowed to use the suppression system as an example for other topics or to make points relating to something else.

One thing critical for me is that I hope that I can disable the decrease in mouse speed when going behind some cover and resting my weapon.

If there is a mouse speed decrease allow people at least to change it in their ini files to possibly remove it. Suddenly having a drop in mouse speed makes playing a game harder than it should be.

Agreed, that speed shift also throws me off.
 
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Before "growing up" and (finally) concentrating on his university studies, my son played CoD competitively for money. He, too, played with his mouse speed slowed way down. He required a huge amount of desk space just look a few degrees one way or the other. So I understand your predicament, Zets. Personaly, I just never liked to play that way.

Having said that, I like the feature of reduced mouse speed when rested. In game, I know when my weapon is rested, I know how it reacts, so I never have any real problem adapting. Sure, just as in the woods, there are times I wished I'd positioned myself a little differently at the onset. But just as I would on the deer stand or in the blind, I reposition my rested weapon or reposition my body as the situation calls for. Now I will admit that I often adjust my mouse speed on the fly depending upon the situation (can't do that up a tree...;)).

I understand why the game reduces mouse speeds when rested, but I can also see where you are coming from. So, in the end, optional would be fine with me too I guess. Being an old fart and more into the fun of 'feeling' the action vs. the competitive need to win, I get a little narrow minded sometimes....:eek:
 
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The thing is for fast mouse users it can really be great so I don't think the ability should be removed, but it should be user definable or it will only turn against the specific groups of players.

Its not so much even about being competitive or not, but its about having a game feel right to ones liking. Its always a combination of tiny things that make a game feel just right for people. And I know for sure that this is one part that has annoyed a lot of people.
 
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Being able to change mouse sensitivity on the fly with binds made in the .ini? No thanks.

This is something that absolutely should not make its way to RO2 in any form.

Euhm that is already in RO2 if it allows you to modify the user.ini at least its possible in UT3, The Ball, Killing Floor & RO (if you can change the mouse speed ingame through the menu you can make a bind for it).

Beside that even if it weren't possible a big chunk of gamers these days have dpi settings on their mouse they can modify. The ability to change mouse speed is something that the game simply cannot control.

If you read this thread its about optionally removing the alteration of the mouse speed modifier when resting your weapon. So your mouse speed doesn't suddenly get lowered when resting.

(however I personally think that it would be the most fair to just make mouse speed tweaks, like the ability to have different mouse speeds in different iron sight modes available to all users through the menu. As people that know how to tweak inis or got a gaming mouse can already change their mouse speed on the fly, and I think it would be more fair if everybody could do it rather than those that know how to do it.)
 
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It would be possible to put a cap on max rotation speed under certain conditions however. That gets around people with dpi toggles as no matter how far they increase their sensitivity, there is still a realistic limit on how fast they can rotate.

In fact I dare say that's already something implemented in RO1 - surely max rotation speed is a property of the characters or weapons?
 
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It would be possible to put a cap on max rotation speed under certain conditions however. That gets around people with dpi toggles as no matter how far they increase their sensitivity, there is still a realistic limit on how fast they can rotate.

In fact I dare say that's already something implemented in RO1 - surely max rotation speed is a property of the characters or weapons?

The thing is if you want to max the rotation speed then actually do that max the speed of rotation. So that if you move too fast that it simply doesn't go faster.

Changing the actual mouse speed changes the gain of your speed it doesn't limit the actual max speed.

TBH i would never let a game limit the rotational speed as it can just feel odd and sluggish. It would be better in my opinion to limit large angular changes. I mean you can move something pretty fast for say 30 degrees. Its when you do 360 degree turns that you get a lot more limited due to having to actively move your body to accomplish that rather than just a small part of your body.

If you want to limit the rotation speed then directly limit that, don't make it depend on a user based preference like for instance mouse speed.

IF you want to limit the maximum rotational angle then limit that.

Or a mixture where with big rotations the max rotational speed gets limited, just like the free aim thing, where moving between something like a free aim area is at a high possible speed and the rest at a low speed.
 
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I generally try to stay out of these things as I don't usually have the time to dedicate to an ongoing debate. I've had a little time on my hands today and the more I've thought about it, the more I've thought some things should be addressed. I'll speak from my experience and FYI if for nothing else. Given that mouse speeds can be changed on the fly and .ini files tweaked, the whole concept of reduced mouse speeds when resting is moot anyway. Never the less, I'll explain why (in a perfect world where game mechanics are played as intended) I like the reduced speed of the mouse when the weapon is rested and the concept behind it.

To avoid a message that warrants a tl;dnr, and being too over the top, I'll dispense with my life experiences for qualification and just tell you that I still shoot some type of firearm daily and have for more than a few decades.

One rests one's weapon against something to steady it. By definition in doing so, one is trying to limit the amount of movement introduced to the sight picture from extraneous forces (anotomical, positional, environmental, etc.). Several things happen when one rests and holds their weapon against that rest. We are basically concerned with two. Range of motion and speed of movement.
When one is no longer free standing but has their weapon rested against an object (tree, wall, window frame) their range of motion is limited within the stance they are in. If one needs to follow a target outside that range of motion, naturally they need to reposition themselves. And though they may leave the weapon against the object, the usefullness of the rest is voided. So range of motion while rested is limited.

When using a rest for the weapon, one is intentionally trying to steady and slow the relative movement of their weapon's sight picture to provide a more accurate shot. Otherwise there would be no need to bother with the rest. If one chooses to move their weapon at the same speed at which they do 'free standing', then the benefit of the rest is lost. So go ahead and shoot 'free standing'. You dont' need the rest. An 'exaggerated' movement of the mouse for a minute change in the sight picture works quite intuitively and quite well for simulating the 'effort' used to precisely bring the sight to target while resting the weapon against something.


Though it is not perfect and I'll be the first to admit that the system could use a tweak or two, I still think the system as it is emulates shooting from a rest pretty well and is quite natural in its implementation. The relative speed/response of sight changes and the relative range of your target acquisition should be less than that of your free standing posture.

In a perfect gaming world, we would all use the same mouse speed and issues such as this would not come up. Unfortunately we don't and therein lies the delimma. There is no doubt that the current system "favors" those playing with the "default" mouse speeds that the developers had in mind over those that play with reduced mouse speeds. (At the risk of being verbally abused) it would seem to me that those playing with reduced speeds 'want to have their cake and eat it too'. In other words, they want the best of both worlds.

I don't have a 'correct' answer other than to say that I'm comfortable letting TW put into place the system they find best suits their game concept. From my experience, and imho, the current system translates weapon resting well. Again, as I mentioned at the outset, with dpi mouse changes, ini changes, etc., its all moot anyway. Even so, I don't advocate changing an intentional game design just because it can be circumvented. If others are doing it and one feels they must keep up with the Jones' then they should do whatever they feel comfortable with. (They're going to anyway...)

"And thats all I have to say about that." Forrest Gump
 
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When using a rest for the weapon, one is intentionally trying to steady and slow the relative movement of their weapon's sight picture to provide a more accurate shot. Otherwise there would be no need to bother with the rest. If one chooses to move their weapon at the same speed at which they do 'free standing', then the benefit of the rest is lost. So go ahead and shoot 'free standing'. You dont' need the rest.

The issue is that the ability to gain more control over your weapon is modelled by resting. Parameters such as sway are removed, next to that being in a rested position is often equal to a low profile. Aiming should generally get easier.

Aka the benefit for some is a curse for others. And the way of resting will heavily influence what the real world effects would be. Because you can either translate the location where the gun is rested to fire or pivot. In case of pivoting there is no additional friction.

In case of moving in real life if you wanted to move fast you would simply lift up your gun and move it quickly. But as the only input device is the mouse and keyboard you cannot simply lift up the gun 1 centimetre above the surface move it and then rest it again as up till like 10 or 20 centimetres above the resting surface your gun still got the resting properties.

If there should be a max turning speed, of say 30 degrees per second. Then that should be the max turning speed. Multiplying the mouse speed with say 0.5 would mean that one person will go from 360 degrees per second to 180 degrees per second. While someone else will go from 60 degrees per second to 30 degrees per second.

Aka a mouse speed modification doesn't limit the turning speed equally for all people. If the idea would be to limit that turning speed wouldn't you agree that it would be better to just say that if you move your mouse faster than the max turning speed of your character that it would simply move at that max turning speed.
 
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You want me to break it out line by line? :p

The issue is that the ability to gain more control over your weapon is modelled by resting. Parameters such as sway are removed, next to that being in a rested position is often equal to a low profile. Aiming should generally get easier.
Aiming does get easier and more importantly PRECISE when the speed is slowed down. I would presume that is why you play with your mouse speed a little slower.

Aka the benefit for some is a curse for others. And the way of resting will heavily influence what the real world effects would be. Because you can either translate the location where the gun is rested to fire or pivot. In case of pivoting there is no additional friction.
Friction has got nothing to do with anything I posted :confused: Sorry,but I don't have a clue as to what you are referring to there. Pivot from the bottom, rest it against the wall....makes no difference. Your stance limits your range of motion. When I say rested, I'm considering the weapon to be "tied to one location" (as oppposed to being able to move about freely). Once you move the weapon's point of contact with a specific resting point, its has to be 're-rested' (or your position changed) to gain the benefit of the rest. IIRC, thats modeled now?

In case of moving in real life if you wanted to move fast you would simply lift up your gun and move it quickly. But as the only input device is the mouse and keyboard you cannot simply lift up the gun 1 centimetre above the surface move it and then rest it again as up till like 10 or 20 centimetres above the resting surface your gun still got the resting properties.
I never claimed the system to be perfect, did I? ;) Tbh though, in game I have more trouble acquiring a rest than releasing from one....

Aka a mouse speed modification doesn't limit the turning speed equally for all people. If the idea would be to limit that turning speed wouldn't you agree that it would be better to just say that if you move your mouse faster than the max turning speed of your character that it would simply move at that max turning speed.
Even with a single value constant (in your example 0.5) the relative change in speed remains the same for all parties. But I'm not advocating limiting mouse speeds...fast or slow. If one end of the spectrum is limited, then so should the other, imo. But that would be taking things just too far. My thinking is simply this: Regardless of the speed you choose to play the game, the speed at which you move/aim your weapon 'free handed' should be faster than the speed you move/aim your weapon while its rested.
 
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