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Support and demo balancing

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9_6

Grizzled Veteran
Sep 4, 2009
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#1
I've always wondered why the (arguably overpowered) support spec gets so many bonuses, especially with the introduction of the new perk.
Some don't even make sense, why can he carry more grenades and do more damage with them?
That should be demo-exclusive imo since he is the big bang guy now.

Also carrying more, I'd have guessed that the guns that make the greatest bang weight a ton, like the LAW did and does but right now, both nade launchers weight -for what they, or at least one of them, do- next to nothing.

While that is fine for the single action one, which reloads kinda slow, doesn't do that much damage and doesn't look that heavy, it's just ridiculous for the revolver one since almost everyone can run around with it plus another weapon or 2.

So I'd propose to up the weight of the revolver grenade launcher by a lot (maybe make it 11 kilograms), lower the weight of shotguns so a hunting/aa12- and a normal shotty weight 14 kilograms combined, take the ridiculous packing-mule ability from the support spec and give it to the demoman who wields the real big guns so he can carry a LAW and something else so the LAW isn't freaking useless.

Yes, I -and I guess everyone else who has seen that shiny big rawketlawnchaa ever since the release of KF retail- would like to see it as a legitimate, useful weapon and not a gimmick that leaves you defenseless and I don't think I need to mention that the LAW should be made a demo weapon.

Thoughts?
 
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#2
9_6 said:
I've always wondered why the (arguably overpowered) support spec gets so many bonuses, especially with the introduction of the new perk.
Some don't even make sense, why can he carry more grenades and do more damage with them?
That should be demo-exclusive imo since he is the big bang guy now.

Also carrying more, I'd have guessed that the guns that make the greatest bang weight a ton, like the LAW did and does but right now, both nade launchers weight -for what they, or at least one of them, do- next to nothing.

While that is fine for the single action one, which reloads kinda slow, doesn't do that much damage and doesn't look that heavy, it's just ridiculous for the revolver one since almost everyone can run around with it plus another weapon or 2.

So I'd propose to up the weight of the revolver grenade launcher by a lot (maybe make it 11 kilograms), lower the weight of shotguns so a hunting/aa12- and a normal shotty weight 14 kilograms combined, take the ridiculous packing-mule ability from the support spec and give it to the demoman who wields the real big guns so he can carry a LAW and something else so the LAW isn't freaking useless.

I don't think I need to mention that the LAW should be made a demo weapon.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

I can agree with the nade on support, but not the ability to carry weapons and the weight. An easier solution would be to make a merit and flaw for using the LAW. If a demo wants to use the LAW, they can add a weight reduction or increase slot available when LAW is in inventory but speed will go to supports speed as soon as the LAW is in your posession. If you drop it, it will put you back at your old carry limit and movment speed (no matter what other weapons you purchase). I understand that people will just have it available to use and drop weapons to use the LAW so they can move around, but if they have the same amount of slot as support if LAW is in inventory, thats like a LAW and nade launcher + pistol?? Not to bad of a compromise in my opinion to make it usable, because it is a pretty usless weapon unless you want the acheivment.
 
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#3
...it's just ridiculous for the revolver one since almost everyone can run around with it plus another weapon or 2.
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Agreed. This huge kick *** nade launcher shouldn't be so light since every perk can carry it aside their own unique weapon.

...take the ridiculous packing-mule ability from the support...
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Eh, why? "Support" means exactly that they carry extra guns so they can support their team. Though I've never seen this happen... but I presume it should be like that..

...shiny big rawketlawnchaa ever since the release of KF retail- would like to see it as a legitimate, useful weapon and not a gimmick that leaves you defenseless
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Agreed. Only support can carry something aside the LAW, but it is still a weapon for the demolitions after all, right?

and I don't think I need to mention that the LAW should be made a demo weapon.
Click to expand...
Huh?
 
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#4
Griever said:
Eh, why? "Support" means exactly that they carry extra guns so they can support their team. Though I've never seen this happen... but I presume it should like that..
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Exactly. Maybe it was intended for that but it just doesn't happen so what's the point?
The role as the guy who welds like there is no tomorrow, shines light with the only other non-9mm weapon that has a flashlight and blasts hordes of zombies that close in too much away is more than enough support I think.

Griever said:
Huh?
Click to expand...
For whatever reason it's a support weapon right now so demo discounts don't affect it.
 
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#5
Lol, I was wondering about this and just saw this topic.
So, IHMO, I think just like 9_6 : since the demo perk has arrived, there should be some little modification to the support perk.
To begin with, Support Perk shouldn't have a bonus on explosion : it is more for the demo perk. Also, LAW should be a Demo's weapon. The Support Perk will always have its more important inventory to have the LAW and others weapons, but the support shouldn't have a bonus on explosion.
But both of the perks would have a discount on it (more for the demo).
And Support shouldn't have so much grenades now that the demo perks exist : at max, i think it should be 8 grenades (+ 60 %) but not 11 (+ 120 %).

Thus, there could be a true Demo perk whose the unique speciality is base on explosions !
 
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#7
I agree with most of this. I had been expecting TWI to basically split Support into two roles: Defensive support and Demolition. With the inclusion of the Demo man, I was surprised to see the Support class untouched. I think everything dealing with explosives should go to the Demolition man. I think it's okay for Support to retain his awesome carrying weight, though. Taking away the explosives would feel enough like a nerf anyway. Perhaps to compensate for the lost grenades, LAW, explosion damage, etc, the Support could be given the choice between two different types of ammo? Spread shot and slug shot? The damage and increase in range slug rounds would give the support would make them forget all about their old explosives. :p The expense of the slug rounds could keep it from becoming too powerful, but it'd keep Support in a more... well... supporting role.
 
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#8
I think the weight of the shotguns should stay as is. At Rank 6 support, you get to pick whether you want the AA12/Shotty, or AA12/H.Shotty. That seems balanced to me, mostly because the shotty and hunting shotty fill two different roles.

The weight on the GLs does need to go up though. You should not, under any circumstances, be able to carry two Tier 3 weapons at once. There are no disadvantages to doing so, to balance out the choice. They have superior damage, and all have deep enough clips that you don't have to worry about ammo. Frankly, I think the weight on all the T3 weapons except the AA12 needs to go up.

Demo does also need to line up with its own class description. At this point, it should have the LAW damage boost, not support. Support should also no longer have extra grenade damage. It's nice, but it now seems at odds with having an explosive expert class. Plus, no support player uses the LAW except for lulz. Maybe that's changed a little post-patch, but it's still true by and large.

Support's weight should stay the same though. That more than anything defines the class to me. More grenades is fine because it falls in line with that.
 
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#9
Lukkas said:
Taking away the explosives would feel enough like a nerf anyway.
Click to expand...
Ohh I think that perk will survive that severe blow ^^
Noone uses the LAW anyway and grenades just plain flat out suck for what they cost, even if they're twice as strong and if you can carry twice as many.
You still can't even kill clots with a single one except if you stick it up to its arse, you always need to spam at least 2 because of the poor blast radius.

Speaking of grenades, those things could use a buff or 2...

Nenjin said:
Support's weight should stay the same though. That more than anything defines the class to me. More grenades is fine because it falls in line with that.
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Really?
Welding to keep your teams back safe from danger defines the class more than anything for me, especially since that's a requirement to level it up.
That and the flashlight on the shotgun, as insignificant as it seems.
I don't see how carrying a lot of stuff supports anyone except yourself and since the LAW weighs a ton, the demo has a lot more use for it.

I also don't think there should be 2 classes who kinda get the same bonus, they should all be unique like they used to be.
 
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#11
<My opinion>

Seriously! Boost the demo even more? (well it hasn't been boosted it was "boosted" when it came out). I agree that the support should have any dmg increases on the Law while the demo should have. But making the law lighter or giving the demo more room would be (in my point of view) stupid. The law can easily clean out rooms with everything except scrakie and fps, which he kills with pipes. I think it would be a great compromise if the support can carry law (with some space over) but without any dmg increase while the demo can carry the law (without space over) with his 60% dmg increase. Now that's fair.

As for the other "smaller" launchers, they certainly need a weight increase.
And maybe nerf the pipe bomb dmg due to the fact that you can easily take out 2 fps in one pipe bomb if you time it right (even as a low lvl support).

I'm only playing suicidal with demo6 and support6.
 
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#12
Anemia said:
But making the law lighter or giving the demo more room would be (in my point of view) stupid. The law can easily clean out rooms with everything except scrakie and fps, which he kills with pipes.
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So can the grenadelauncher which doesn't leave you defenseless with only a 9mm and a knife AND has a mechanism that keeps you from blowing yourself up.
Notice how you blow up if someone steps in front of you and you shoot? A single stalker or crawler who hops in your face is enough and you die with that thing.

Yeah, the demo can kill a lot of stuff but if he stands even a little close to his own pipe as it goes off, he's dead.
Nadespam an enemy that is close by, you're dead.
Have a scrake or fleshie in your face with no backup weapon or teammate nearby, you're dead.
No other class is permanently in that kind of danger so in the end, it is pretty balanced imo.
More balanced than other perks. (well, cept the pipebomb part maybe)

And just because a gun is good at killing stuff doesn't mean it's overpowered.
Or do you see everyone run around with LAWs?

Those are some serious drawbacks and if naders become heavier, I think him being able to carry more stuff is totally justified, yes.
More justified than having the support carry 2 shotguns and another weapon imo.

The firebug/support spec can also easily clean out a room, even at point blank with no danger of damaging themselves at all so I don't quite get your point.
 
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#13
9_6 said:
So can the grenadelauncher which doesn't leave you defenseless with only a 9mm and a knife AND has a mechanism that keeps you from blowing yourself up.
Notice how you blow up if someone steps in front of you and you shoot? A single stalker or crawler who hops in your face is enough and you die with that thing.

Yeah, the demo can kill a lot of stuff but if he stands even a little close to his own pipe as it goes off, he's dead.
Nadespam an enemy that is close by, you're dead.
Have a scrake or fleshie in your face with no backup weapon or teammate nearby, you're dead.
No other class is permanently in that kind of danger so in the end, it is pretty balanced imo.
More balanced than other perks. (well, cept the pipebomb part maybe)

And just because a gun is good at killing stuff doesn't mean it's overpowered.
Or do you see everyone run around with LAWs?

Those are some serious drawbacks and if naders become heavier, I think him being able to carry more stuff is totally justified, yes.
More justified than having the support carry 2 shotguns and another weapon imo.

The firebug/support spec can also easily clean out a room, even at point blank with no danger of damaging themselves at all so I don't quite get your point.
Click to expand...

Yes certainly, a support or a firebug can clean a room as well, but, not from bigger specimens (well a support can take the bigger ones as well, but not as easy or quick as a shower of nades). Yes the demo perk is certainly a team perk due to the fact that you are pretty screwed in close combat with demo.

@, So can the grenadelauncher which doesn't leave you defenseless with only a 9mm and a knife AND has a mechanism that keeps you from blowing yourself up.
Well yes. But that's what I said the small nadelaunchers should be given more weight. One nadelauncher contains enough for one wave.

I do have to agree that I dislike the demo perk a lot due to the wall off smoke and it's overpowered nade spam. If you're covering one passage you can easily keep an smoke wall in it the whole wave. I personally think that the 6nade launcher should take at lease 10 blocks. And the other one like 6 or so.
 
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#16
Lukkas said:
While that makes a very good point, and I'd like the idea of a support class that actually operates in that way, there's nothing in that description about shotguns. Killing Floor's "support" class is a highly unique class and has almost nothing to do with the traditional support role.
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I beg to differ, if you look at the description for "traditional," support specialists, you will find:

1. Support specialists traditionally operate rocket launchers.
2. Support spec weapons are generally large, requiring more than one person to operate.
3. Support specialists often uses explosive devices.

In KF, support specialists:

1. Are apparently meant to be the perk that operates the rocket launcher.
2. Have the ability to carry larger loadouts than any other perk.
3. Originally were the perk to choose for explosive damage, ie grenades.

My conclusion is that they are in fact strongly based on what traditional support specialists are supposed to do, within the limitations of what KF has to offer.

PS: Shotguns are a typical "special purpose" weapon in the military, and a typical use might be, for instance, to defend a machine gun emplacement. A very "Support" role.
 
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#17
Those are valid points, but I was referring more to the support class in practical use. In game, he's really a crazy, shotgun blasting maniac that welds doors shut at an unnerving rate, and always manages to nick your gun when you die.

I will agree however that the original concept for the class does have a lot in common with the more traditional support role.

I agree that the support class is meant to actually be a support class, and as such, perhaps the extra damage with the LAW is reasonable. I think it's quite debatable whether or not it more properly belongs with the support of the demo man, however.

I see the demolitions perk as being a subset of the support perk. But if the demolition aspect of the support is to be given to the demolitions perk, it's hard to think of exactly what roles to give the support class such that he still resembles a supporting archtype. Personally, I think it'd be excellent if support could use his extra carrying weight to carry additional ammo packs for others. Not an unlimited amount of them, but perhaps a few ammo packs, weighing about 2 blocks each. Something like that.
 
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#18
Support's that carry tons of Firepower (Nades, Shotguns, ect) cost a fortune to reload, so they kinda balance themselves out. Blasting apart everything in your path isn't so awesome when you realize that you've got a $600+ reload bill, not including armor repairs, and you only made $300 that round...

And once demos are no longer the "Flavor of the month", they'll be fine too. Aside from nuking Fleshpounds, demos aren't that great. In fact, against Scrakes and Gorefasts, their performance is outright sad compared to the other classes. Not to mention that the truly bad demos are, by and large, a hazard to themselves...
 
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#19
Welding to keep your teams back safe from danger defines the class more than anything for me, especially since that's a requirement to level it up.
Click to expand...

Except that's the only reason most players do it, to grind the level requirement. I rarely if ever see Support Players volunteer to lock a door down for a whole game. They get the T2 and T3 shotguns in hand and they might as well be playing alone.
 
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#20
Nanostrike said:
Support's that carry tons of Firepower (Nades, Shotguns, ect) cost a fortune to reload, so they kinda balance themselves out. Blasting apart everything in your path isn't so awesome when you realize that you've got a $600+ reload bill, not including armor repairs, and you only made $300 that round...
Click to expand...
Only the hunting shotgun costs a fortune to reload.
Completely filling an aa12 costs 200 and the standard shotty is within the same region while the hunting shotgun is somewhere in the region of 600 to fill completely.
Grenades are a waste of money to buy anyway, I never ever even use them anymore.

Nenjin said:
Except that's the only reason most players do it, to grind the level requirement. I rarely if ever see Support Players volunteer to lock a door down for a whole game. They get the T2 and T3 shotguns in hand and they might as well be playing alone.
Click to expand...

And I rarely if ever see a support spec having still room for weapons that are meant for 'supporting' their teammates, other than by firing them themselves.
Also no door is meant to be locked for a whole game and a support spec can bring it back up to 100% in seconds and I see them do that pretty frequently.
Unless they suck at teamplay.
 
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