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Leading for ping is ridiculous, Mk.2: An Example

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#41
MrHello said:
Ok, let's just accept it's not that they're sticking by any particular design paradigm, it's just they can't be bothered to change large parts of the networking code to fix the game.
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Why fix something that isn't broken?

Why fix something with a solution that could potentially cause MORE issues?
 
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#46
Well there are a number of solutions.

A: Increase tick rate. There were a number of 40 tick servers a while ago, not sure what ever happened to them.

B: Slow down movement, and add innertia to players bodies so that they cannot dart around as they can now.

C: Continue tweaking and optimizing to get players pings down, as the lower the ping gets the better the 'lag/hit detection' gets.

D: add some kind of a lightweight system for this kind of delay correction.


I would prefer ABC to D though.
 
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#49
I was happy enough playing Quake 1 on dialup with a 300 ping, I'm sure as hell happy enough playing RO2 on a 60-80 ping. So count me in also with the no change crew ;)

I don't think the netcode needs changing, I think a lot of this comes down to server performance issues. Though I note a lot of servers seem to be running better now (mostly due to running lower player counts). Seemed at launch everyone was trying to run 64 players, with resulting 200 odd pings for all. Now I see an awful lot of 32 player servers.
 
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#51
Aurien said:
Sounds like a problem with your internet or computer. I can play on NY/NJ 64 man servers with about 85ms ping, and play on UK servers with about 120ms ping. I do get the times when it the server side lag kicks in and it goes up, but the majority of the time it's fine. You've got computer/internet issues.
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I was thinking the same exact thing. Try to run a trace route and have your ISP do something. This really looks like an issue with your internet connection.
 
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#52
DiedTrying said:
Since when was zig zagging considered a cheese tactic to take advantage of internet latency?
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Asking that question suggests that you don't understand what this thread is about. Having to lead latency instead of just bullet ballistics means you get a bullet time of flight that's roughly five to ten times higher than what it ought to be, depending on range. A person charging down a hallway 10 meters in front of you should be a simple point & shoot proposition - zig-zag evasives should be changing the necessary aimpoint by barely even a centimeter...but in RO2, it swings the aimpoint around by several meters at a time. For any shot that's shorter range than, oh, all the way across Spartanovka, the networking is just about 100% of the reason why zig-zags works. It's doing something really silly to exploit an artificial mechanic.
LordKhaine said:
I was happy enough playing Quake 1 on dialup with a 300 ping
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I did that too, and yeah, it was fun for those purposes...but now we're not using rocket launchers and it's not 1996.

Heck, if RO2 similarly delayed your client's firing animation for your latency like Q1 did, I'd probably be somewhat less annoyed by it. At least then, you'd get immediate feedback as to what's really happening instead of having to review events frame-by-frame later to know wtf is going on. And, I suspect, then there wouldn't be nearly as many people saying they don't see a problem, because it would be immediately obvious to everyone ;)
 
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#53
Mekhazzio said:
Over what we have now? Hell yes, I would unquestionably take "dying behind cover", as that phenomenon is commonly called. The reasons are straight-forward:
  • It's just an artifact of the time delay, and it's trivial to deal with. It's easy to remember where I was 200ms ago. It's not so easy to predict where a target is going to be 200ms in the future. In fact, unless they're running in a straight line, it's pretty random. Even the straight lines can be a pain in the *** at times.
  • We can already "die behind cover" under the current model. While I was recording footage last night, I caught it several times. I could put some on youtube if you'd like to see solid examples. We wouldn't be getting anything new.
  • It's a fairly rare event. People don't move very quickly in RO2, and with the sighting delay, aimed snapshot fire is nonexistent. It's pretty rare to gain or lose LOS on someone in just 200ms, and it takes a miracle to flick-shoot someone in that time.
  • But you know what's not a rare event? Shooting at a target that's doing something other than standing perfectly still. Making that work is just a little higher priority.
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Please take the time to read RammJaeger's post about this.

And yes, let me see your idea of dying behind cover with the current state of RO2. I'm curious to see just how confused you are.

Having trouble hitting people up close because of tickrate issues and the "bullets having no effect" phenomenon is far, far off from wanting lag comp because you can't handle predicting a shot with 200ms ping.
 
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#55
Mekhazzio said:
Asking that question suggests that you don't understand what this thread is about. Having to lead latency instead of just bullet ballistics means you get a bullet time of flight that's roughly five to ten times higher than what it ought to be, depending on range. A person charging down a hallway 10 meters in front of you should be a simple point & shoot proposition - zig-zag evasives should be changing the necessary aimpoint by barely even a centimeter...but in RO2, it swings the aimpoint around by several meters at a time. For any shot that's shorter range than, oh, all the way across Spartanovka, the networking is just about 100% of the reason why zig-zags works. It's doing something really silly to exploit an artificial mechanic.
I did that too, and yeah, it was fun for those purposes...but now we're not using rocket launchers and it's not 1996.
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I know precisely what this topic is about and I agree with the issue in the OP however your condescension is both unwelcome and unwarranted.

The claim that zig-zagging was created as a quasi-cheat to exploit RO2 is a load of crap. I and many like me have been zig zagging in various games for years both single player and MP. You know why? Because it's hard to aim at or hit a moving target. It has nothing to do with "exploiting the networking code".

I know it's a shocking revelation to some of you that some people use common sense and use open field/water tactics for evading enemy fire.

Those god damn rabbits always piss me off when they exploit reality netcode by darting side to side making it difficult to blow them away with my .410. :mad:

Here's a thought, why don't some of you get a clue and realize that not everybody is cheating. :rolleyes:
 
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#56
DiedTrying said:
The claim that zig-zagging was created as a quasi-cheat to exploit RO2 is a load of crap. I and many like me have been zig zagging in various games for years both single player and MP. You know why? Because it's hard to aim at or hit a moving target. It has nothing to do with "exploiting the networking code".

I know it's a shocking revelation to some of you that some people use common sense and use open field/water tactics for evading enemy fire.
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Generation Kill - Rolling Stone Under Fire - YouTube
 
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#58
Sigh, I actually give up :(

<3 RO2 but can't be arsed to have to lead by different amounts per shot as my ping is fluctuating, this has now really been done to death and the OP is a great example of why things should change in my opinion.

reading Ramms post here:

http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showpost.php?p=662931&postcount=9

[TW]Ramm-Jaeger said:
Also, in your case where you say your ping is 60 ms, but there is a delay 0.3 to 0.5 seconds (300-500ms) either there has to be something wrong with your network, the network between you and the server, or the people coding that particular game. Because in the standard "Method 2" system above, with a 60ms ping it would be about 120ms (or .12 seconds) before you saw the hit effects. Most likely it is a problem with your network, your computer, or your perception of time.
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the amount of people I find not having an issue seem to be in the minority, does this mean that 'the people coding that particular game' are at fault? Also in this same post I feel it is heavily implied you cannot / will not get false positives using the system that is in place, I disagree....

oh well they got my cash, enjoy it TWI, I really respected you before the car crash that was/is RO2
 
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#59
Reise said:
Please take the time to read RammJaeger's post about this.

And yes, let me see your idea of dying behind cover with the current state of RO2. I'm curious to see just how confused you are.
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You say this like you think it's an impossibility. This phenomenon of "dying around a corner" is an inherent side effect of every networking model that includes client prediction. The only way you can design to avoid it is to use target-side hit detection. It's impossible to die around a corner with that method. It's also next to impossible to hit anything since it double-dips latency, which is just one of many reasons why nobody uses that method.

I had deleted my footage from a couple days ago to take more footage, but it only took a few minutes to set up a test case to demo the phenomenon, so enjoy:RO2: "dying around a corner" - YouTube

Also, that Ramm post earlier in the thread is largely about hit display effects, which are the blood sprays and the meaty/helmet sounds. Only his last two paragraphs discuss the hit resolution itself, where he claims, a year prior to release, that the issue will be solved via entity prediction. After the fact, that is clearly not the solving the problem. In fact, the game as released doesn't seem to have any entity prediction running at all, or everyone who runs up to a corner and stops there would run out past the corner and then warp backwards behind it as the movement caught up to the prediction. So, no, it doesn't solve the problem, and it can't, unless you want to break gameplay in ways that are visually blatant.
Having trouble hitting people up close because of tickrate issues and the "bullets having no effect" phenomenon is far, far off from wanting lag comp because you can't handle predicting a shot with 200ms ping.
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"Tickrate issues" and "bullets having no effect" is exactly, entirely about latency compensation. You're talking about the same issues that myself and all the others in this thread are.
 
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#60
DiedTrying said:
The claim that zig-zagging was created as a quasi-cheat to exploit RO2 is a load of crap. I and many like me have been zig zagging in various games for years both single player and MP. You know why? Because it's hard to aim at or hit a moving target.
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You're talking about aim & tracking. That's something else entirely, and is somewhat irrelevant to the discussion about zig-zags in this thread. What's being discussed is that even with 100% perfect accuracy and tracking from the player, the networking can still produce misses, because, in the projectile's latency-added time of flight, the required aimpoint can shift by a much greater distance than the target size. The technical mechanics of how the shot functions in the game has a huge effect on the outcome even when you entirely remove human error from the equation.

To put it simply, the networking can make even an aimbot miss. When that's possible, what hope does a human have?
 
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