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Ok treading on a sensitive issue here... The Medic & The Zerker.

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Undedd Jester

Undedd Jester

Grizzled Veteran
Oct 31, 2009
3,059
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Sheffield, England
#1
Warning Wall Of Text - but it is necessary for my point (skip to Green for tl:dr) :)

First I'd like to clarify this is not a rant, this is merely a concern after reading a number of forum posts for 2 perks that share a number of qualities. The Medic & The Zerker

I'll be first off the bat to say I'm a true blue Medic. I enjoy the whole, waiting patiently, keeping an eye out for distant threats that may cause damage for my teammates and basically doing the whole support thing. In my mind the Medic is perfectly fine.

My concern is there seems to be this fairly large portion of the forum that feels that the Zerker needs to keep getting buffed, and buffed and buffed. Indeed during the Beta he did need buffing, however I personally think it may have gone a tad overboard. Not game breakingly so, but noticable. But still I keep seeing these threads on various topics that support making the game harder for Medics but easier for Berserkers. Specimen suggestions, weapon suggestions, etc etc there just seems to be this mentality that Medics need to be punished in favour of the Berserker.

I agree whole heartedly that the Medic should be kept off the front line, but the fact is, he already is. His 2 major staple weapons in 1014 (the Katana and Xbow) are both very weak in a Medics hands, and the LAR has stepped in as his most reliable weapon. This is great, as the LAR gives the Medic a good weapon for basic support, but he stands little to no chance of beating a Scrake and is made into Medic Pate against the Fleshpound. He can't solo the game anymore. However compare him to the new Zerker -

Medic Armour Resistance vs. Zerker Damage Resistance.
Before the update the Medics armour gave him more protection than the Zerkers damage resistance boost did. However with armour I believe the gap now between them is actually very small. Survivability was always the Medics staple, but the Zerker had the damage to counter that, now the Berserker is pretty damned hard to kill. Plus the Medic is toast if his armour is gone whereas the Berserker is still formidable even with his armour gone.

Medic Healing vs. Melee Damage
This was a hands down win for the Medic before the update. His weapons were reliable regardless of damage, and so the healing buffs outshined the Berserkers damage. Now the Medic is in his place, and cannot survive on his own, however the Berserker can. His damage resistance coupled with his straight cut down power is very formidable indeed.

This I would be perfectly happy with except for this slight point...

Medic 25% speed vs. Berserker 30% speed + Clot grab.

The Berserker already outshines the Medic in survivability due to the points above, but the clot grab is really where his strength is. The clot grab is devastating for Medics, it really gives us alot of problems. The Berserker can keep going where other perks cannot. The bit that confuses me is why is the Berserker faster than the Medic? He already has nearly the same protection, a vastly superior ability to fend off foes, and immunity to being slowed down. Given his apparant survivability already does he really need to be made better at kiting as well?
I mean sure its a conditional speed boost, but as a Medic you move slower with a gun than you do a melee weapon anyway, so its more or less the same thing, just less pronounced.

My issue is that the Medic is completely out classed by the Berserker in every way for survivability and yet if I remember rightly the Medic when Level 6 was first launched the Medic also had a speed of 30%. This was later nerfed for being too powerful since it could keep ahead of fleshpounds and the Patriarch, which the Berserker can do now.

Couple that with the Medic like Damage Resitance and the damage output, it seems odd to me the Medic got so much hate back then and the Berserker gets so much love now.

I said it in the beta and I'll say it again. I personally believe the Berserker should at most be the same speed as the Medic, not faster. His clot grab already outshines the Medic's speed boost for escape, and the Medic is the class that will need to be able to escape from specimens and stay out of the way more than any other class in the game.

If you made it to the end well done, sorry it was so long :rolleyes:

J* :cool:
 
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#2
I'm full-time Medic (my only Lv 6) and what you said might be true, but honestly: I don't care.
What realy bothers me is the fact that all these buffs the berserker receives seem to serve the sole purpose
of making the Berserker a even greater Rambo class.

About Medic's survivability:
You're right, a medic won't make it for long on his own,
but isn't this how its supposed to be ?

On the other hand, Medic isn't as weak as the majority believes.
Even with armor gone, you still have the advantage of being able to replenish health within seconds.

This way, I can take out pretty much everything, even FP.
With one exception: Scrake.
Once a scrake starts charging you there's not much you can do, but holding down the trigger till it makes *click*
(of course the last paragraph depends on your loadout, but that's how I usualy die :D)
 
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#3
I enjoyed reading and you made valid points. The same thing happened to the SS in lieu of the Com. When I say same , I am referring to player "feedback" shifting power. In the case of medic and berserker it was a major upgrade, at 40% resistance almost feels like cheating:p. With the SS it was a MAJOR downgrade. When the smoke settled and people let go of their pro com , anti- SS rage , they seem to realize maybe the balance was a bit too much. My point being when the vets start seeing massive waves of people using (abusing?) a class they start yelling until they get a change. The change is fueled by so much angst that the vision of true balance gets skewed.
 
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#4
My opinion:

Berserker; the class that kinda sucks for teamplay but is way overpowered when going solo. Really, if you know all the tricks as a Berserker (Axe altfire Scrake-stun, FP kiting, Crawler dancing etc), the game is completely soloable as Berserker on all difficulties

The Medic could use a small buff, and the Zerker a small nerf. The propsed idea of making the Zerker a bit slower would be a great start. Making the Medic have something like... faster reload and maybe even a tiny perk damage boost on the Mp7 (and possible M7a3 :)) would make him a tiny bit better at supporting the team.
 
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#5
im already fine with adding recoil resistance to the medic, thats the main reason medic's MP7 is so weak, once u fire the first 3 bullets its uncontrollable.

as for damage, well, its pretty strong if you count in the fire rate of that thing, its basically a full auto 9MM with 20-40 bullets.

as for zerkers ... well ... its all about technique, once you get used to it your awesome. beginners don't understand that, they think the class is weak and want it made stronger... but once they learn to use the techniques they get immortal.
(if i may, its kinda like the SPY in TF2, its all about skill, experience....and luck)
 
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#6
Medic is fine. Zerker is probably a bit overpowered if you know the cheesy tactics (LAR + Axe, FP cheesing) but the majority of players don't. I still see most Zerkers using the Katana for Scrakes, and many don't even know that the Axe still stuns them. Soloing is pretty situational anyway. On maps like Farm or WL it's easy, but on Biolab or Bedlam it's nearly impossible.

So yes, Zerker could likely be nerfed a tiny bit but I'm not worried about it.
 
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#7
Undedd Jester said:
Medic Armour Resistance vs. Zerker Damage Resistance.
Before the update the Medics armour gave him more protection than the Zerkers damage resistance boost did. However with armour I believe the gap now between them is actually very small. Survivability was always the Medics staple, but the Zerker had the damage to counter that, now the Berserker is pretty damned hard to kill. Plus the Medic is toast if his armour is gone whereas the Berserker is still formidable even with his armour gone.
Click to expand...

Zerkers are meant to constantly take hits. Medics are meant to STAY away from danger. You said that yourself. The armor is so you can power through a few hits if need be, not so you're a god-tank. Plus there's one thing you're forgetting.

MEDICS CAN SELF-HEAL FOR ~50% of their health constantly!

You can get the stuffing knocked out of you and heal it away, where a Berserker who's low on HP and alone is in serious trouble, as it'll take him 3 injections to get the health back that you get in one!



Undedd Jester said:
Medic Healing vs. Melee Damage
This was a hands down win for the Medic before the update. His weapons were reliable regardless of damage, and so the healing buffs outshined the Berserkers damage. Now the Medic is in his place, and cannot survive on his own, however the Berserker can. His damage resistance coupled with his straight cut down power is very formidable indeed.
Click to expand...

Yes, the medic heals and the Berserker is largely a damage class. I don't understand your point here. The medic isn't LOSING any power with weapons. He's just not getting any bonus. Thus he has the freedom to use almost any weapons he wants without "wasting" a damage bonus.
Undedd Jester said:
This I would be perfectly happy with except for this slight point...

Medic 25% speed vs. Berserker 30% speed + Clot grab.

The Berserker already outshines the Medic in survivability due to the points above, but the clot grab is really where his strength is. The clot grab is devastating for Medics, it really gives us alot of problems. The Berserker can keep going where other perks cannot. The bit that confuses me is why is the Berserker faster than the Medic? He already has nearly the same protection, a vastly superior ability to fend off foes, and immunity to being slowed down. Given his apparant survivability already does he really need to be made better at kiting as well?
I mean sure its a conditional speed boost, but as a Medic you move slower with a gun than you do a melee weapon anyway, so its more or less the same thing, just less pronounced.
Click to expand...

The Berserker ONLY gets his speed bonus with a melee weapon, first off. If you have a gun out to shoot crawlers, you're slowed down. Healing yourself or a teammate? Slowed down.

The Medics have their speed constantly, no matter what they have out. So the speed difference is minimal. As for the clot grab resistance...that's why you use rapid fire weapons. Your MP7 is almost tailor made to stumble groups of Clots in your way so you can safely run past. The biggest reason Zerkers have clot grab resistance is because if they DIDN'T, they would die trying to melee.




Undedd Jester said:
My issue is that the Medic is completely out classed by the Berserker in every way for survivability and yet if I remember rightly the Medic when Level 6 was first launched the Medic also had a speed of 30%. This was later nerfed for being too powerful since it could keep ahead of fleshpounds and the Patriarch, which the Berserker can do now.

Couple that with the Medic like Damage Resitance and the damage output, it seems odd to me the Medic got so much hate back then and the Berserker gets so much love now.

I said it in the beta and I'll say it again. I personally believe the Berserker should at most be the same speed as the Medic, not faster. His clot grab already outshines the Medic's speed boost for escape, and the Medic is the class that will need to be able to escape from specimens and stay out of the way more than any other class in the game.

If you made it to the end well done, sorry it was so long :rolleyes:

J* :cool:
Click to expand...

Medic is pretty much equal with Zerker in survivability due to the ridiculously effective armor, your self-healing, and the ability to run 25% faster while shooting. NO other class can do that. And that's where the big problem came in. Medics could outrun things WHILE SHOOTING them. If a Berserker is outrunning something, he has a melee weapon out and thus isn't doing damage.



Honestly, I think Zerker is pretty much fine right now. If medics need something, buff 'em, but leave Zerkers how they are. Give the medic their run speed increase back for all I care. The only reason it was really taken away was people got sick of seeing a Medic run off along as everyone is dying, heal himself fully, and proceed to kite specimens with a Crossbow for 10 minutes to finish a wave. It wasn't fun for anyone besides the medic and was absurdly easy to do.
 
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#8
Nanostrike said:
Zerkers are meant to constantly take hits. Medics are meant to STAY away from danger. You said that yourself. The armor is so you can power through a few hits if need be, not so you're a god-tank. Plus there's one thing you're forgetting.

MEDICS CAN SELF-HEAL FOR ~50% of their health constantly!

You can get the stuffing knocked out of you and heal it away, where a Berserker who's low on HP and alone is in serious trouble, as it'll take him 3 injections to get the health back that you get in one!
Click to expand...

Totally agree with you. Zerkers are fine and should stay the way they are in my opinion.

I play enough 6 man HoE pubs to assure you that less than 2.5% of the level 6 zerker community can actually survive and clutch wipes ingame.

Zerker's are fine.

Why?

It takes a level of skill and situational awareness in order to achieve some of the epic (and rare) things you see berserkers pull off in game (clutching a 6 man HoE on wave 10/10 and having to solo 4-5 FPs, not to mention dealing with sirens, husks, etc.).

Ask any of the pro zerkers like devante, scary_ghost, xebo, Francis, and gr33n2r3d.

As for medic, medic's sole purpose is to heal.

Ideally his/her mission should be to keep the team members alive so the medic doesn't have to fire a single shot.

When it comes to engaging targets, a medic with a good headshot and twitch ratio can be even more formidable as a medic if they play it smart.

Reference: Learn to twitch with the MP7 for crowd control. It'll save your team's life.
YouTube - Killing Floor: MP7M Techniques and Tips:

I don't think the class is meant to be a head on killing class like Support Specialist.

As for clutching on 6man HoE, with that 25% movement speed bonus still lets you pull off the crazy things that zerkers can do with the only exception being on Scrakes.

Ask Fang.HD about how its done. I've seen him pull insane stuff as a Level 6 Medic with the current rebalancing. It all boils down to situational awareness and player skill.

Fang's video of Medic vs. Patriarch gameplay:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nypSilmW-ys

Fang's video of clutching Office (Minus the LAR fix)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckl8P1Uovv8


But even then, it's still manageable with the proper loadout and preparations in advance.

This is coming from someone who only plays 6man HoE pubs with less than desirable random teams.
 
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#9
I think its down to one single thing that causes the community to feel/react the way it does towards these classes:

Like someone said earlier, the berserker is not a perk you can pick up and be an instant success. Newer players trying to level berserker really have not grasped the fact that you can't just sit in front of an enemy with a chainsaw and hold down the button until everything is dead. You need to dodge and dance around the little stuff, kite the big stuff, and get the hell out of there when the situations isn't in your favor. This simple bit of info alone makes people think the berserker is underpowered.

I think anyone with serious experience with berserkers know they really don't need a buff.

A few of my opinions:

1. I think the community has a hardon for the berserker (the online community, not the forum community), which is one of the reasons I hate the berserker perk. During my time leveling the perks I have met many level 6 berserkers in normal servers. These rambos are perfectly content to rambo around the map picking off enemies by twos and threes, while the rest of us are left to be destroyed. Once the rest of the team is dead they take satisfaction in extending their e-peen by making us watch while they solo 200 zeds. I think berserker should be nerfed just to get rid of these a-holes. Any perk that has that much power to solo really has no place in a multiplayer game. I don't think the medic has the kind of solo power the berserker has, which is fine with me.

2. If humans love anything, its to be a unique little snowflake. Using melee weapons in a largely gun based fps really gets their "hey I'm special!" sense tingling. People want this class buffed because of the fact that its almost totally different than the other perks.

3. They medic is nearly fine the way it is in my opinion. I wouldn't mind another utility type weapon, but I thoroughly enjoy the classes role.

TL;DR- The berserker is a rambo favorite, which is why I hate it and never use it.

inb4 RAGE, not all berserkers are rambos, and berserking has nothing to do with feeling special.
 
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#10
I don't see how katana and xbow are weak in the hands of a medic. Katana 1 hit kills crawlers, clots, and stalkers and 1 hit decapitates gorefasts and bloats. Xbow 1 hit kills everything up to a scrake. Sure katana has a 10% slower swing speed but it's perfectly usable for personal defense. Also, medic with his +25% speed bonus moves at a comparable speed to a zerker with his +30% melee speed. If you go through the code and work out the values, zerker has a speed rating of 274 and medic at 267 if both have the knife oout and are at 15/15 blocks. On Suicidal/HoE though, the medic's speed bonus is reduced to 20% thus only has a speed rating of 256 under the same conditions.

I've been against the increased speed and resistance for the berserker since wave 1 of beta testing. Berserkers have done just fine with the old speed and resistance values. If anything, the old values should be restored along with the backstab fix. +40% resistance and faster speed gives the zerker way too much margin of error.

@Hawk
Fang's medic video was shot on Hard difficulty. I'm not questioning his skill but doing that on HoE is more unreliable as the medic's speed is reduced and the patriarch moves faster. It's near impossible to dodge the patariarch's melee attack if he's moving while swiping at you unless you have really, really good ping. Even then, it's mostly a dice roll.
 
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#11
noupperlobeman said:
I think its down to one single thing that causes the community to feel/react the way it does towards these classes:

Like someone said earlier, the berserker is not a perk you can pick up and be an instant success. Newer players trying to level berserker really have not grasped the fact that you can't just sit in front of an enemy with a chainsaw and hold down the button until everything is dead. You need to dodge and dance around the little stuff, kite the big stuff, and get the hell out of there when the situations isn't in your favor. This simple bit of info alone makes people think the berserker is underpowered.

I think anyone with serious experience with berserkers know they really don't need a buff.

A few of my opinions:

1. I think the community has a hardon for the berserker (the online community, not the forum community), which is one of the reasons I hate the berserker perk. During my time leveling the perks I have met many level 6 berserkers in normal servers. These rambos are perfectly content to rambo around the map picking off enemies by twos and threes, while the rest of us are left to be destroyed. Once the rest of the team is dead they take satisfaction in extending their e-peen by making us watch while they solo 200 zeds. I think berserker should be nerfed just to get rid of these a-holes. Any perk that has that much power to solo really has no place in a multiplayer game. I don't think the medic has the kind of solo power the berserker has, which is fine with me.

2. If humans love anything, its to be a unique little snowflake. Using melee weapons in a largely gun based fps really gets their "hey I'm special!" sense tingling. People want this class buffed because of the fact that its almost totally different than the other perks.

3. They medic is nearly fine the way it is in my opinion. I wouldn't mind another utility type weapon, but I thoroughly enjoy the classes role.

TL;DR- The berserker is a rambo favorite, which is why I hate it and never use it.

inb4 RAGE, not all berserkers are rambos, and berserking has nothing to do with feeling special.
Click to expand...


Edit: Not sure why my text was not posted and this post came out as 100% quote...

Anyway, let me just echo my agreement with the above post. I have very little interest in playing KF at all at this point because the only consistently effective strategy is running around as a Berserker and "Rambo"-ing everything.
That's not a strategy I think should be valid at all. Running off alone on a 6+ man server means you should die very, very fast, not be the last one surviving and capable of outrunning all the zeds easily and taking them on in easily controlled numbers.
The fact of the matter is it's much easier to survive using this abusive strategy than it is to coordinate with 5 other people in a balanced-perk team, and that's a big problem with this game currently and it really kills my interest. Killing Floor is not a game that I enjoy for the singleplayer, there are better games out there for that.
 
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#12
scary ghost said:
I don't see how katana and xbow are weak in the hands of a medic. Katana 1 hit kills crawlers, clots, and stalkers and 1 hit decapitates gorefasts and bloats. Xbow 1 hit kills everything up to a scrake. Sure katana has a 10% slower swing speed but it's perfectly usable for personal defense. Also, medic with his +25% speed bonus moves at a comparable speed to a zerker with his +30% melee speed. If you go through the code and work out the values, zerker has a speed rating of 274 and medic at 267 if both have the knife oout and are at 15/15 blocks. On Suicidal/HoE though, the medic's speed bonus is reduced to 20% thus only has a speed rating of 256 under the same conditions.

I've been against the increased speed and resistance for the berserker since wave 1 of beta testing. Berserkers have done just fine with the old speed and resistance values. If anything, the old values should be restored along with the backstab fix. +40% resistance and faster speed gives the zerker way too much margin of error.

@Hawk
Fang's medic video was shot on Hard difficulty. I'm not questioning his skill but doing that on HoE is more unreliable as the medic's speed is reduced and the patriarch moves faster. It's near impossible to dodge the patariarch's melee attack if he's moving while swiping at you unless you have really, really good ping. Even then, it's mostly a dice roll.
Click to expand...


I realize that videos Fang featured above were shot on Hard difficulty, but I'm referring to when I've played ingame with him on HoE, when the rest of the team is dead and he's clutching on wave 8/10 with an Axe, and LAR, and a spare MP7 he dropped.

Regardless, the chances for a medic are slim in clutching the round. That I'm with you 100%, but I've seen him do it multiple times consistently post-patch.

What were the original damage resistance values pre-patch? I sort of had a reshaping in the direction of berserker from seeing Devante and your videos, so the transition happened right as I was learning the ropes from the many facepalm-worthy fails against fleshpounds (say that 5 times fast).
 
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#13
@Hawk
I meant the patriarch fight where he's dodging the attacks, highly unreliable on HoE. But I certainly don't doubt the medic can clutch out a few waves here and there. I gave axe/lar/m7pm a go during beta testing as well and really the only specimen that was show stopper was the scrake. No flinch locking and inability to stun without a LAW rocket makes medic vs. scrake a tougher fight than medic vs. fp since medics can employ the same hit and run tactics a zerker uses.

For zerker perk bonuses pre patch, they were:

  • +25% damage resistance
  • +0.25 extra melee speed bonus
    • Yes perk description says +20% but that's not how it is in the code
    • Old speed rating with 15/15 blocks and carrying a knife was 264
These values were perfectly fine. Berserkers have been successful with the old bonuses and there was absolutely no reason to increase them, especially the damage resistance.
 
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#14
Medic: Need's some slight damage boost for the Mp7M. And a reload bonus (30%?), because half the time when you are reloading one of your team mates is dying or dead because of the reload.

Zerker: Leave him as it is. The class is a rambo class. Since if u try to work with a team your ability to kill is dwarfed laregly because your team mates are most likely using guns and will take most of your kills.
 
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#15
@scary ghost:

I completely agree. More speed and damage res are great, but they mostly just increase room for error. Everyone and their mother-in-law is using berserker now because they don't need great awareness/decision making to excel.

If you want to nerf berserkers, here's how it can be done:

1. Obviously role back beta changes: Zerkers were fine prebeta. Way too easy to play now IMHO
2. FP changes: Slow them down. Make them middle-of-the-packers. It would be seriously difficult to kite ANYTHING if the FP wasn't constantly outrunning (and subsequently isolating himself from..) the rest of the pack. It would be a good way to help out turtling too. While killing lone FPs would be easier, it's totally doable now, so I don't see that as a true down side.
3. Xbow nerf: Kiting is way too easy when you can shoot through an entire crowd and 1-hit sirens/husks. Changing xbow in any way without crippling some other class would be very difficult though.

Also, I don't know why people constantly rave about LAR; It's a fifth wheel in my experience. Axe, katana, xbow. Anything else is superfluous at worst, and icing at best.

As for medic, I won't speak on it much other than to say that they're my favorite class to trio along side. One medic with a crossbow has the speed to keep up with a running situation, the firepower to take out the biggest obstacles, and the healing to keep the caravan out of dangerous situations. 1 berserker is capable, 2 berserkers are confident, but 2 berserkers AND a medic are unstoppable on most maps.
 
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#19
Well there seems be a tad of confusion to my point. I realise that post was huge so i'll scale it down to the main point:

Medics are fine, they function how they should. The Zerker however has been buffed very heavily and I feel its gone a tad far.

The Zerker is the only class that can fight effectively against everything, which I believe it was a widely accepted community view that no class should be able to take on everything, which was why the Sharpshooter was so heavily nerfed. Zerkers however can take on: -

Clots - Clot Grab Resistance and speed make this an very easy task
Crawlers - Speed easily dodges thier jump and the chainsaw can be held to just kill them in mid air.
Stalkers - Very high damage resistance and speed to dodge stalker swings.
Gorefasts - Powerful and fast damage output + stun effect.
Bloat - Bloat Bile Resitance + Damage Resistance
Sirens - Damage Resistance, speed to either ambush, rush or kill from distance
Husk - Damage resistance, speed to either ambush, rush or kill from distance
Scrake - Stun effect
Fleshpound - Uses 30% speed to dodge fleshpound swings and keep it docile.

This last one is where the problem lies. Not only should the Zerker have a foe he isn't effective against, it was also agreed that NO perk should be able to solo a 6 man fleshpound. The only exception is perhaps the Demo with his Pipe Bombs due to his cost, inherant weaknesses to other specimens and the general danger of his class.

I don't think this trick can be done by the Medic, because 25% isn't quite fast enough (not that I've tried tbh so someone might need to confirm). However my point remains, the Zerker can take on everything, and that is something no class should be able to do. I say nerf the speed boost to 25% to prevent Pound kiting and Zerker will be golden.

But heck thats just my opinion
 
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