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Worst map balancing I've seen in my life !

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#41
Goten said:
Yes, keep telling me more about historic accuracy ...

Historic accuracy is fine, but not if it affects gameplay. This is a game not some historical simulation. It was advertised as a game, I bought it like a game. Games are supposed to be fun and fun means balancing. Those maps are not balanced ! It's as simple as that !

Germans steam roll, germans keep winning ... Sometimes, but that's not because the maps are balanced, it's beacause of the teams.

And yes I play Axis most of the time, I don't have to appologies for it.
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Maybe you bought the wrong game if you expected all the maps/weapons/teams to be perfectly balanced all of the time. RO shouldn't be perfectly balanced, on top of that a properly asymetrically balanced game is more fun. Brink was so over balanced that all the weapons performed so closely to each other the differences were purely cosmetic.

The Germans still have the upper hand as far as being the defenders more often than not, having uber rare unlocks while the Soviets have to unlock the basic functions of thier guns, as well as the PzIV being superior in every way.

In my own experience the Germans have had no problem winning. That doesn't mean there aren't times when one team is much more coordinated than the other, but even with teams of equal skill the Germans still have all the advantages listed above.
 
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#42
Goten said:
General unproven crap. Detaliate and we can have a conversation.
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You bring up some interesting points, but the sheer arrogance of this line invalidates your entire post for me. It is one thing to discuss and want details, quite another to shoot down opposing opinions.
As for opposing opinions, i see Axis win all of these maps often enough, i think it comes down to team coordination. At this point if a team is smoking you 150+ to 0 it is the tactics that should be re-evaluated not the map balance.
 
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#43
Golf33 said:
Russian reinforcements on GE are irrelevant. The map is always determined by whether Axis can take the 2nd floor or not. If they do, Allied reinforcements get set to zero and Axis will always win. If not, the Axis team will lose to Lockdown, usually with plenty of reinforcements still in hand.

On Station, a good Axis team will smoke and rush the left approach as a group. The Allies will not be able to stop them and from there it's a fantastic, close fight through the buildings and rail cars. At the end, Axis can get machine guns firing across all the Allied approaches to the final cap and win from there. Usually seems to come down to pretty well equal reinforcements (both teams run out within a few seconds of one another) and just a few seconds on the clock. This is some of the best, close balancing in the game. What really determines this map is the quality of squad and team leaders especially on Axis. If they are good, Axis will win. If not, it can be an easy win for Allies.

Overall I don't think Axis really have much cause for complaint. They get far better weapons and in most cases (GE excluded) better map position. They also have nice dark uniforms that are invisible in shadows on most maps while Allies are always very easy to see (ROF and Pavlov are the best examples). Allies need more reinforcements because the weapons, uniforms and map imbalances mean they die at a faster rate (assuming equally skilled teams).
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Yeah, so you have NO good argument. Just saying things like "good uniforms", and your post gets funny.
Me, on Axis, I never play with other smg than PPSH. Why ? Because I wanna win. And I want to make clean "kilss", not stupid wounding.
You say also "Second Floor". This means you are a camper usually, because the worst zone is Foothold Elevator, by far.
About Commisar... you said nothing about my observation: that A is just an obsolete buiding, that Axis CAN'T HAVE IT. Not BACK, and this is even worst.
So, like somebody said above - when you have really good arguments, let's talk. Until then, just keep your PPSH at hand and don't blog.
 
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#44
all these things you guys are bringing up is why i really wish we could just have a territory mode where the teams switch sides and play as axis and allies for one round each. this would eliminate EVERY SINGLE imbalance on every map 100% of the time.... just think about it for a bit guys...

if team a captures in 18 minutes, then the teams switch sides, and team b captures in 16 minutes...that is a CLEAR and DECISIVE victory..no questions, no ifs and buts...PERIOD. both teams played under the same circumstances.

i know some people would whine about having to play both side (axis and allies), but in the long run, these people would like the game much better for it, simply because playing allies and axis is 2 completely different scenarios for each map keeping things alot more fresh and challenging. this would also add a higher level of competition, whether it be for clans, scrimmages, and even pubs.

the way it is set up now, there is NO WAY to know which team actually won the round which feels cheap.

when you have diff color uniforms, diff weapons, and diff layouts for each side of the map...it is literally and mathematically impossible for a match to be balanced.... UNLESS both teams have to play under each scenario.
 
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#45
Golf33 said:
I'm not disputing the reinforcement numbers.
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Well, I am ... that's what bothers me most atm. The latest additions that screwed Station and screwed GE even more.
Golf33 said:
I just don't think they have much to do with map balance (in most cases).
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You don't see how reinforcements affect map balance ?! How about on the late game, let's say after 15 minutes with equally skilled players on both teams, the Axis will just be depleted on the attacking maps (Station, GE and Spartanovka) ? You can't attack with fewer reinforcements, you don't do that in real life, you don't do that as Allies in this game, you shouldn't do that as Axis.
Golf33 said:
Quoting yourself is wasted effort when we all read that post already - don't mistake disagreement for a failure to read.
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Well you said two things (again) that make me think you haven't read it all:
a) you discuss tanks and that Panzer IV is better than T-34. I have told you that from the first topic (separate in a phrase about tanks and on how each map is favoring who).
b) "Or you could try playing both sides, like I have". I said I play most of the time as Axis, that doesn't mean all the time. I've played every map, even Gumrak as Allies and not just one time.

Ok, let's discuss leveled up weapons. It's not to hard to level a weapon in this game (with the exception of pistols and anti-tank).

Golf33 said:
the MG34 beats the DP28 for controllability, rate of fire, penetration, ease of hipshooting and at higher levels has massively greater ammo capacity (250 vs 47).
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I don't know how you define "controllability" so I'll just skip that.
MG-34 beats DP-28 in ROF and greater ammo capacity (75, not 250 - how the hell did you come up with that vs 47).
Instead, DP-28 is 3kg lighter and has better visibility.
Penetration and hip-shooting are the same. I'm not aware of an wall that MG-34 penetrates and DP-28 doesn't.

Golf33 said:
The MkB is superior to almost anything else in the game for its mix of rate of fire, penetration, killing power, ammo capacity, accuracy, controllability and mobility.
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It's an overall weapon, and like all overall weapons it does everything bad: worst than PPSH on short distances, worst than MP-40 on medium distances and worst than a semi or rifle on long distances.
It's also heavier and reloads slow. If you level it to 50 you get an useless sniper hybrid - it's actually unplayable.
The weapon is good just to annoy russians.
They are 3 on a 32 player team. That's 10%.

Golf33 said:
The MP40 is superior to the PPSH for range, accuracy and controllability. PPSH has the edge in rate of fire. At higher level drum PPSH may have the edge.
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MP-40 is inferior to PPSH in so many categories. It's just good vs papasha on medium distances, in CQB (where the weapons are supposed to meet) PPSH has:
- almost double rate of fire
- double the ammount of rounds
- kills in burst (which MP-40 and MkB usually don't do)
- a larger spread which is bad on the medium distances but it's great for CQB.

Golf33 said:
The semi-auto and bolt action rifles seem pretty well identical to me (noting that I am comparing about L8 Russian weapons to L1 German weapons).
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Even the rifles are inferior for Axis thanks to the extra bullet you have to reload (which killed me more than 1 time ^^)

I won't discuss pistols and sniper rifles, it's useless.

Yes PZB is more powerfull than PTRD even they are the same weapon. I actually think it's a bug and not a feature (I even posted it on the Bugs section).

Anyway, like you said: leveling up gives you access to enemy load out so the weapons will fail as an excuse for the russians.

Now the next excuse is uniforms. I think it's pretty bad to say the team is imbalanced because of the uniforms but ... watever. We can discuss this if you want.


@Mad_Murdock
Yes I'm arrogant but on this topic, at least, I'm also right. If you invalidate a person's opinion just because of that person's arrogance that's just ... sad.
I didn't shoot opposition opinion. Opinion is something backed up by arguments, now he detaliate it and we can really have a conversation. "Germans have better weapons" it's not an opinion, it's just words ... "Germans have better weapons because ..." is an opinion !

Concerning: "As for opposing opinions, i see Axis win all of these maps often enough, i think it comes down to team coordination. At this point if a team is smoking you 150+ to 0 it is the tactics that should be re-evaluated not the map balance."
Again, like so many guys on this topic, you discuss particular round, games, teams ... I gave an example earlier how I saw Commissars won by the russians in 7 minutes. You consider Commissars a balanced map or a map that favors Allies ? I'm not, I think it's a very bad map for russians.
Try not to think on your personal experience in one night, week, try to think big as they say: "if the teams were equal as skill - think 60 clones of you: 30 Axis, 30 Russians - would the attacking team be able to win with the same or less reinforcements ?". The answer is a clear "NO" because you can't just kill more people when you attack then the defenders can. If you attack and kill more guys than the defenders it's spelled: "imbalanced players or weapons". As I (think I) proved that the weapons are pretty much balanced so you just have to say that if the attackers won it's because they had better players, not that they had a fair map.

@SkinZ187
Your proposal is good, I can play like that.
But, again for the 2312452 time: with equally skilled teams, the attackers would just lose on Sparta, Station and GE.
You will have 2 teams who both lost the rounds, separated by some seconds.
You see: they didn't screw it just for Axis (it just happens that Axis is the only one screwed since beta), they screw it for the attacking team.

@VocaTeam
I'm also a german who plays wiht PPSH but the myths of the MkB and "the laser-gun" will die hard.
 
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#46
@Goten

there is never going to be a scenario where both teams (whether in pubs or clan matches) are exactly equal in skill.

now obviously, there would be a time limit set (example: 20 minutes) and lockdown would not exist in this game mode.

if it were to reach max time, then it would just go by whichever team had most objectives captured at that point of the max time limit being reached if neither team had captured all objective.

as it is now, the territory game mode just seems so very bland...with no real feeling of having really actually won or lost the battle.
 
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#47
@VocaTeam

You don't want a discussion you want a little German-fan love in. My experience is that the German team wins more often overall, which in itself is evidence that you are wrong about map balance.

Of course I'm a 'camper' on grain elevator. I'm using a machine gun, why wouldn't I move to a position where I have a good view of the enemy movement? That said, my games last might suggest that people are starting to figure out how to neutralise that so I will have to adjust my tactics.

On CH, why should Axis be able to take back A? In RO1 many maps did not allow you to retake any objective and I found it more fun that way both in attack and defence. You can still enter A even after it falls because it's not a protected zone, so recapping does nothing except what? Restart the lockdown timer that is one of the most annoying features of the game already? You win the game if you hold any objective at the end so why worry about the first when it makes little difference.

I don't use PPSH. If MG isn't available I use bolt-action.

Uniforms - probably varies between computers. I find myself squinting a lot more in RO2 than in RO1 and a lot of it is because there is zero contrast between Axis uniforms and shadows. This shows up particularly on servers with killcam where you get to sere that the German who shot you was near invisible in his grey uniform, lying on the white snow in the shade. When I play as Axis, it's a lot easier on the eyes because the Russian players stick out against most backgrounds whether in shade out not. An exception is FF where the various spawn buildings provide good hiding for both sides.

@Goten

Controllability - how easy it is to deal with recoil and keep all shots in a burst on target.

250 - take a look at the MG34 screen and tell me what you get at L50. Wall penetration - I'm not sure of this because it needs more testing. However, on Spartanovka I have found it easier to kill Germans through fences with the MG34 than with the DP28. I get more kills when playing as Russian machine gunner with MG34 than with DP28, even though I am 37 levels higher with the DP.

The Axis players I've come across don't have your trouble with the MP40. They kill in a single burst and rarely miss at any range. When I used the MP40 I was surprised at how easy to use it was.

I don't know what MkB you've been using either. Again the guys I see with it usually kill in a single shot at range, or a short burst up close. I've had enough games where every time I've been killed the weapon has been the MkB to know that in the hands of a competent player it's completely lethal.

@both of you, how do you know what the skill level of the players on the other team is? I have been looking for a column on the scoreboard that says "Skill" but I can't see one there.

Could it be that you define a skilled player as one who mostly plays Axis, and from that deduce that Axis should therefore win most of the time if the maps are balanced? Nice circular reasoning there. This way, if Axis don't win, it's not because the Rosarian team was more skilled... No, it's because the maps are imbalanced.
 
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#48
>Grain Elevator the worst map for Axis

Stopped reading there. You have GOT to be freakin' kidding me. Quake 1 or not, you are delusional beyond belief. Not that Quake 1 balancing has anything to do with Red Orchestra balancing. They're two different entities altogether.

Good day sir. Enjoy being frustrated in the corner somewhere where no one will care.
 
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#49
Had a match on GE today playing as Axis (TL in fact, just so that I knew there'd be some smoke whereneeded).

First two rounds, we only took B with one or two seconds to spare. Shows just what a team can do when the pressure of time is on them and people are nagging them.

Once we'd got B, one round we romped home, the other too few people followed through to the Foothold. First round, Axis had far fewer reinforcements, but took and held 2nd floor and then pushed through to victory. Felt pretty well balanced.

I still feel that Station is badly designed and too much of a cluster****. Perhaps this is just a matter of taste, however.

I'd love a mode where the teams were switched after the first round, but if it's just a server-side opton, it risks splitting the player-base further.
 
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#50
Many times what seems like imbalance is just poor teamplay GE is a perfect example.The reinforcements mean nothing if the Germans take the first two objectives at that time the Russians loose most of their reinforcements allowing for a easy German win.

The problem now is the Germans pretty much ignore objective B after they cap A. All they do is try to flank or get in the building to camp for kills.If 80% of the German team charged B right after A with smoke and MG support.Capping it would be easy and then they would be ahead on reinforcements.

Most of the time only a handful of Russians are even inside of B defending.Capping A and B quickly is the KEY to Germans winning GE.To my frustration most of the time when I play Germans on GE I will be the only guy inside of B cap.While I watch my team flank left or right totally ignoring the cap.You just can't win matches this way.

The Russians have the same problem on Commissars 10 or more guys will be camping for kills.The only difference is unlike GE the attackers on Commissars have to take 4 objectives within the same lockdown.

My point is good teamplay will overcome any map imbalance this is not a game where rambo style solo play will win matches it really takes a team effort.
 
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#51
Well said, TheRealGunther.

Same thing applies to Station. I've seen German teams steamroller that one. Good smoke cover and a single concentrated rush into the ruined buildings on the left saw the German team cap A within a minute. They then infiltrated the Platform using the carriages for cover and took that, then used the opportunity to flank into North Hall. After that it turned into a bloody and confused fight. The Germans pretty quickly took the southern end of the railways and set up an MG firing between South Hall and the building to its south - cutting off the Russian reinforcements. The match ended up being a close win by Axis, and great, fun play for both teams.

A poorly coordinated German team will muck about in A, trying to take both flanks at once and failing on both.
 
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#53
Richey79 said:
I'd love a mode where the teams were switched after the first round, but if it's just a server-side opton, it risks splitting the player-base further.
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While I agree such an option would be awesome, may I ask why you think it'd risk splitting the player base?

Is it soviet/german hero-worship? Surely people who have such outrageous 'loyalty' to one of these two disturbingly corrupt factions that they refuse to play the other have such a rotten mindset they aren't desirable company anyway?
 
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#54
Tak said:
Is it soviet/german hero-worship? Surely people who have such outrageous 'loyalty' to one of these two disturbingly corrupt factions that they refuse to play the other have such a rotten mindset they aren't desirable company anyway?
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I don't know if it's loyalty or anything.

I just find myself identifying with the German side more.

Not the fact that they are the attackers, or the despicable regime that brought about WWII, but more from a cultural perspective.

The game is supposed to be an immersive WWII experience, and I don't get that when I play the Russian side. I just feel out of place.
 
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#55
Tak said:
While I agree such an option would be awesome, may I ask why you think it'd risk splitting the player base?

Is it soviet/german hero-worship? Surely people who have such outrageous 'loyalty' to one of these two disturbingly corrupt factions that they refuse to play the other have such a rotten mindset they aren't desirable company anyway?
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It comes down to preference and taste.
If you design the game with generic team A or team B that's not linked to any history or historic weapons, I'm sure more than half of the players who play this game would not even bother looking at it, even if it has the same game play.
Some players like it on one side as opposed to the other. Some players are indifferent of which side he chooses.
 
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#57
Tak said:
Even for a round? For the sake of sportsmanship? It's a whole side-for-side swap we're talking about, not just a random shuffling.
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Honestly, I really detest the idea of playing as Soviets.
I wouldn't leave the server but I think I would be less than enthusiastic, to the point I wouldn't mind either winning or losing.
If it were a server option, I would probably stick to the ones that turns off this function.
 
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#59
mattlach said:
This is supposed to be a (at least semi) realistic war game.

War is not balanced.
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Not a valid argument. This is after all a game, not a simulator. And in order to have just a semblance of good gameplay, some balance is needed, otherwise players will only play on one team.

I remember in the beta there was almost always a majority wanting to play axis, and the allied teams would often be 3 or more players short. This is not the case anymore, often I even find more playing allies, especially on certain maps like Spartanovka and Grain Elevator. So obviously some kind of balancing has occurred, and with good effect.
 
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#60
A territory mode where the teams switch sides would definitely be a good fix from a gameplay standpoint imo. Make it set able by the server, but it at least gives both sides the chance to experience unfair advantages, although germans would own a lot a lot of the combined arms with tank maps since allies get superior map layout to counter inferior tanks.

I've always wanted to see something like the campaign where for instance germans attack Red October factory starting with G and going to A. Spartanova is similar with Russians attacking E first or appartments they attack just like how Russians do. Maybe its something for modders to do, but it seems like a few gameplay balance tweaks (changing which windows are boarded/open is big) would be a lot easier and still make a fairly balanced attacks from the other end of Spartanova/ROF. Station could be remade into a map with different cap points and have the Russians attacking from the south, there are whole unused buildings on the south side of F.

GE A/B need some rebalancing for 40+ man servers as its a bit unfair for germans, good allied MG/Snipers usually force me to play Germans (they need the help) on this map and its prob the one I've lost on the most outside of CH (allies). The ROF cd on german arty could be reduced a few minutes, so we don't have to spam mortars. Station is pretty winnable for germans imo. Usually they win it on 64 man servers with lots of time to spare, but sometimes they do well and run out of tickets. A careful advance will usually give them the ticket advantage if they didn't get pinned down on A forever. Reckless charges will make them run out of tickets.

Pavlovs is pretty balanced imo, except its too hard for germans to hold the Square. If they get D there can be good fights between D/B/A, but if they lose C its hard to get back. Still E is like the best MG/Sniper/AT nest building on any map. So its a powerful advantage for germans especially if they've got experienced players in those roles.

This is coming from someone who has played Russian MG the most, but I've played most of the roles on most of the maps. I just end up on allies cause they usually need the help more and end up with more newbies/ like minded players to me who want a good fight so the camaraderie and teamwork is a bit more fun. Germans often give off the sense of elite players who expect to and do win while being lone wolves. Which really hurts them on a map like GE, where teamwork is essential.
 
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