[NEW MAP] Bridges of Druzhina

[RO_fan]

This map rocks! Thanks for the hard work Harley

But there is one thing that bothers me : the foliage "cheat".
Players with foliage quality set to "low" have a huge benefit. Anything you can do about that? The grass shouldn't disappear, it just needs to be low quality grass. Not sure if this is an issue with the map or with the game engine.

[Barber[FG]]

Originally Posted by RO_fan

This map rocks! Thanks for the hard work Harley

But there is one thing that bothers me : the foliage "cheat".
Players with foliage quality set to "low" have a huge benefit. Anything you can do about that? The grass shouldn't disappear, it just needs to be low quality grass. Not sure if this is an issue with the map or with the game engine.

I believe it is a game engine limitation. In fact... it was an issue in RO1 as well. People back then could turn off all foliage (grass/bushes etc.) so that they could sit back and shoot people who otherwise believed they were concealed.


It is also a real issue in a lot of games beyond Red Orchestra, as such details tend to not render past a certain draw distance, thus exposing a player who otherwise thinks that he/she is well camouflaged or concealed in the scenery.


To further compound the issue, not all machines for each player will have the same draw distance.


The solutions for map designers are un-pleasant ones. The solution is to try to design a map where a player will never be able to spot a target beyond the average draw distance of the foliage, thus most players will have a mostly fair experience. Personally, this can be extremely limiting for a map designer and isn’t worth the effort.


The second solution is to limit such details on a map. This is un-acceptable in my opinion as details such as foliage make the environment come to life.


In my opinion, it is something players are going to have to live with for perhaps another decade.

[RO_fan]

Originally Posted by Barber[FG]

I believe it is a game engine limitation. In fact... it was an issue in RO1 as well. People back then could turn off all foliage (grass/bushes etc.) so that they could sit back and shoot people who otherwise believed they were concealed.
..... .....

I was afraid of this answer.
I'm wondering how much this will affect the Rising Storm maps (jungles etc.).

[Sojuz]

Barber[FG], turning off vegetation in Ostfront was treated as a tweak on a par with just cheating ... By contrast, in HOS vegetation can be off from the level of game options, in this way, using the Ostfront categories, everyone may be suspected of cheating.

[Barber[FG]]

Originally Posted by Sojuz

Barber[FG], turning off vegetation in Ostfront was treated as a tweak on a par with just cheating ... By contrast, in HOS vegetation can be off from the level of game options, in this way, using the Ostfront categories, everyone may be suspected of cheating.

Yes, in RO1 it was denounced and labeled cheating! I never did it and we would ban people suspect of it on our own server.

In RO2 however I agree, if your point is to say, that it really isn’t cheating in RO2, if due to your options, vegetation etc. is off or even more limited. That is why I stated that it is something players will have to live with. I’m fine with it the way it is, even if I get shot while in a concealed position… such is war and the only real safety from being shot and killed is real cover.

[r5cya]

what about if the designer who puts foiliage, intended as cover, also made it so that there was a bit of a ridge, hiding you as well? obviously, this would only work when stationary and not when trying to sneak up on people through the grass.
it's a nasty situation.

[Coin-goD]

I know you can set statich meshes to show on diferent levels of Game Quality.
Bricks for example only show in Ultra.

Can't you do the same with foliage?

[Nezzer]

There's some kind of foliage that doesn't disappear on the distance. Maybe it's possible to do that with grass. I just don't know how graphically demanding that would be.

[11_HARLEY_11]

Bridges B3 now up.

http://forums.tripwireinteractive.co...ad.php?t=82210

[11_HARLEY_11]

Originally Posted by Nezzer

There's some kind of foliage that doesn't disappear on the distance. Maybe it's possible to do that with grass. I just don't know how graphically demanding that would be.

Very, probably. Also placing it might be a giant pain as opposed to painting it on.

Arma2 has a great fix for this. Where there's no grass drawn the player is still concealed somehow. It's weird but works.

Originally Posted by r5cya

i had it happen about five times last i played. i was not spawning on squad leader.
harley might want to ask twi about this. apartments had the same problem.

I will, it's very strange indeed.

[Squarebasher]

I think the answer to the folige problem is to use it as an asthetic addition and not concealment, keep the grass short and it hurts no one but still looks good.

Barber explained the problem very well, I used to map for an FH2 tourni and this used to annoy me to the extreme as the BF2 engine has the same problem. I did some tests on one map and made the draw distance of the folige 450m and the game lagged badly, this happened untill I brought the draw distance down to below 100m.

Also Harley has plenty of cover on the map such as the ferns and trees which are permanant for all, I would suggest just shorten the grass so no one is deluded into thinking they are concealed by it.

I just though I would say this again though excelent map Harley, the design of the level is great. I played it on Tuesday once for a very short time as german the russians got too the last cap and won. And 2 rounds as russian both times the russians got to the town, but we were held by a good defence by the germans. I did notice one thing though and it was that on the map I could see 2 squad leaders, one was mine but I am not sure why I could see another.

Also I think you have the balance pretty good as it is now, apart from if bugs which are found I would not do to much more to it.

[Cultivator]

Arma2 has a great fix for this. Where there's no grass drawn the player is still concealed somehow. It's weird but works.

In ArmA2 the players and objects sink a little into the ground texture at distances where the grass is not rendered. Its a good solution for the problem but i don´t think that you can do that in Ro2 so easily.

But playing also without grass is not in alternative for
me ( see my sig ;D ), because it destroys the great atmosphere...

So it would be great to have an option that forces the players to play with foliage. A few of my Ro2 mates have very old Pc´s and can play that map with enough fps!

BtW: Thank you for the update Harley

PS: Hey Harley! Sixten made some cool animations for bushes on Ogledow. That would be a great feature for your map!.. What do you think?

Edit: Just noticed that the drawdistance of that burning T34 on the street near F & G is to low...

Regards Culti

[Panzerlied]

Awesome map Harley, I remember talking to you a while back about maybe adding tank traps to the map so Russian engineers have a purpose.

I was thinking about maybe having them on both sides of the river, so the Russian tank is at least slowed down, and is unable to just steamroller over the river to the German spawn and caps as quickly. This would mean the Russian team would actually have to coordinate with their infantry and tank to advance in the map.

I would even suggest some tank traps on the bridge too, but that might be overdoing it.

I just think the addition of these tank traps would make it a bit more interesting, like how in Fallen Fighters if you take out the tank traps on either side of the road as an Engineer you allow your tank more freedom to advance.

I also see an issue of people that would say the Germans have enough cover already in the trees, but it would only help them after the Russians take the slit trenches, and by that time the Russian tank would/should take care of that issue.

Just my thoughts on it, otherwise and awesome map.

[40-1BlaBla]

We had the same problems on two of our servers.
After running a tests, with different map rotation, for few hours, I think the error is not caused by Bridges of Druzhina map.
First i had only Gumrakstation and Cold Steel in rotation and this error appeared after second map change (cold Steel-Gumrakstation-Cold Steel), so I thought I may be Cold Steel causing it.
Then I've changed the rotation to: Gumrakstation, Butovo and Bridges of Druzhina. Same thing happen, after second map change this error.
Last map rotation was of 6 maps: Bridges of Druzhina, MamayevKurgan, Butovo, Spartanovka, Cold Steel and PavlovsHouse. with this rotation there were no problems at all after 7-8 map changes, players still can connect to the server without any errors.

If a single map is the reason for this error, it should be Gumrakstation, not Bridges Of Druzhina.
Other possible reason may be having a two custom maps one after the other. It's seems to happens after the end of the second custom map played in a roll.

I'll keep trying with different maps in rotation and let you know if I find out something else.

[Calumhm]

Harley, I know it's probably a big effort, but:

How about making some kind of very-low-LOD Static Mesh grass for use at super long distances?

Speaking as an amateur/intermediate UDK user, wouldn't there be a way?

[Welshie]

Finally got to play this last Night, brilliant Map Harley, and I was on the Axis side that won ....keep up the good work Mate, one of the best custom Maps I've played on

[migmadmarine]

Welshie, at what point did the Germans win? All the times I've played it, it seems that if the Russians can be held at the river and open ground, the germans will win, but if they make it into town, it's all over for the Germans. LOVE it though.

[Panzerlied]

http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/7...2/screenshots/

The first 3 screenshots are of the building I was telling you about earlier, it's on the right side of the last bridge if you're on the German team. You run up to the wall and you can see, and shoot through it. I killed two bots doing this.

[Thelionheart]

So one of the [2.FJg] Tactical Realism servers running this map crashed and now when trying to re-enter it gives this error: http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/...CBD5D1006EE31/ I'm not sure if it's been reported before, but I thought you might want to know.

[Attilaken]

AWESOME map Harry ! This is really what RO2 needs.

I got a few suggestions and opinions on the map:

1. I would make it an infantry only map, or provide an infantry only version of the map. We played it at Nomads server without tanks and the immersion was great. A tank can spot infantry in the woods more easy, so without it it really is getting a fierce battle of long range shooting, sneaking up on the enemy with your bayonet, using smoke as russians to advance.

2. The low level water rivers are great, also the fact that you can 'swim' under water, but it is not realistic you can stay under water forever. There should be an oxygen limit so soldiers need to get air and expose themselves that way to the enemy. A bit more grass on the edges of the river could make provide a 'vietnam' feeling, allowing soldiers to take position just with their head above the water.

3. There is a clipping problem somewhere in the middle of the map; you can walk through a wall getting in and out a building, maybe even using it as a wallhack. You probably already know about that.

4. Russians are able to spawnkill at the far right side of the map where the buildings start. This should be fixed no doubt. First time I played the map, advancing at right side, I was spawnkilling before I was even aware of it, thinking I found a good spot to crossfire the enemy.

5. Maybe a few objects on the fields to take cover behind for the russians could be nice, BUT I would only place thin wooden objects that are bullet penetratable, like a wooden plate. That way russians could find some cover but are still not safe behind it if a german saw them running behind it.

Again, awesome map !