Heavy Rewriting of Weapon Unlock System

[Fulgenzio]

NOTE: This is just for weapons and does not refer to honor or class experiences.

As everyone knows current system is far from perfect.
Some weapons (of which the existance in stalingrad was already dubious) have overpowered attachments and tend to appear quite frequently, while others are just not historically accurate, just like ppsh41 stick mag or 4x scopes as basic ones for snipers.

Additionally, though you can still rank up quite fast if you wish to play CD over and over again and/or grind with a lot of bots, weapon requirements are just incredible at times. Least kill-requiring weapons take about 1650 kills to be maxed out (bolt-actions) while others raise even higher.


Basically, I propose some ideas to rewrite the whole system, trying to limit the already said attachments but also allowing to gain mastery much faster with all weapons, even playing normal 64 player games.



First: Gaining points is now given by everything. Dont rush to conclusions:
if you normally gained weapon points by killing people, you now gain points doing whatever necessary to help the team WHILE using that gun. You won't earn experience points by just holding the weapon in your "backpack". Only points counted are the ones with the weapon currently equipped. You can actually master a weapon without necessairly committing a 1000 player genocide, but just covering your teammates and help them capping together. You also gain points by doing suppression, but just in the case the person you suppress gets later killed by an ally (so no bullet spamming); additionally the game specifies when your Kill Assist is for a hit (which gives now +2 and remains Kill assists) or suppression (which gives +1 and is called Suppression Kill Assist). This was you could slowly rank up to ability level 50, though faster than previously and in some cases nearly parallelly to class system.

Second: Select Grade Weapons and Standard Issue attachments are limited, depending on the attachment and its popularity/historical accuracy.
For some weapons it will still be possible to have theoretically all the team carrying the attachment (such as bayonets) but it will be rare.
Select Grade Weapons, due to their rarity, cannot be just equipped once you get to level 50. Once a player gets to this level of ability, he is eligible for receiving that attachment (which will probably be limited to 1 or max. 2 per team) but will not necessairly obtain it. At the beginning of a map, it will be a slot like anyone else (so basically the one with fastest pc will own it) but as soon as the first round ends, his level 50 seat can be lost if another player who has acted better than him gets a battlefield commission AND is eligible for it. In this case the previous owner goes back to his old level 25 attachment, though maintaining level 50 stats.


Third: The weapon attachments have to be rewritten in some cases. Here's a list below.


KAR98K: Though nearly esthetical, Level 50 Remove Sight Hood is available to max 2 players per team. Level 25 bayonet, however was really common and can be either available to whole team or at least 16 slots (can be chosen, though first one is best)

Mosin: Same for the previous one, including the shiny mosin version.

MP40: Level 25 should unlock nothing. MP40/2 is far from rare and dual 32 round mag has to be put on level 50. Each team can own a maximum of 2 of these.

Pepeshka41: Urgent modification. Level 50 with select fire capability has to be level 1, as it was standard issue for the red army. There are no real balance issues in this, since people tend to complain (too much) about (presumed) allied weapons inferiority. Stick mags should not be trashed out of game, though they could be incentived. They could be unlocked along with a high-quality chrome barrel (weapon compensator) that further reduces its recoil; this could be done on level 50, and even so they should be limited to 2 of these.

AVT40 and MKB42 Elite Assault Weapons: Crucial point. These guns are limited to 3 people each team, but even so they are incredibly frequent and picked up by other soldiers when possible because extremely deadly.
So: Level 25 bayonet can be available to TWO people each team.(So if nobody is level 50 someone shall be forced to play with the "crappiest" version of these).
Level 50 Scope just to one person, and due to their power it is also required HERO rank with the class. In this case if all hero slots are occupied in other classes, there is no real loss, but less annoyance.

DP28: This one is the same all the time. Max 2 for level 50 shiny mode, and no requirements for level 25 standard issue.

Mg34:The real life version is the level 1 one. The others are historically inaccurate, however considering possible rage caused by its removal I decided to put it the same way as mkb 42.
Mg34 Level 25: Two people max. (150 rounds are quite much)
Mg34 Level 50: Just one person, need hero rank.


G41: This weapon is given to a limited class, and even so has no particular upgrades except bayonet. Level 25 available to anyone in class, but only one of the elite riflemen can have shiny Level 50.

SVT40: Same as above, though this is also due to its high quality muzzle brake which gives a good advantage.

P38: Only 2 players can own version with black hand grip (level 25), and further two for level 50.

Nagant Revolver: Suppressor should be moved to level 50. Level 25 should have no limits, since there are no rare cosmetic variants, and level 50 should have max 2 people.

TT33: Same as nagant revolver.

Mauser C96: AKA: The annoyance weapon: Due to its excessive power this weapon has more severe limitations. Only two players can own the level 25 upgrade, but also need a battle-hardened rank for it. Level 50 Automatic Assault rif- ahem pistol can be available to only one person, and it has to be a hero.

Sniper rifles: I have little knowledge to these as I rarely use them. Considering them I'd say to REVERT the unlockings , making last level upgrades first ones instead, as I read that the ones the game gives at start were the least used, while level 50 were most popular.
Unlock should be same of elite riflemen.

Optional: 1 extra nade for russian counterpart. Historical reasons. Nade spam is not very probable as they have lower throw range than german counterpart.

NOTE: Considering some weapons have restricted level 25 upgrades, the player who acquired a minimum level of 25 can either choose to make his weapon look well-used or standard issue WITHOUT the attachment on it in case the limit is reached (though the shiny lv50, even if cosmetical has to remain a rarity in any case, so no shiny guns except the limit).

Now I have to go. I'll format with capital letters tomorrow.

[Fulgenzio]

I did a small format, though I still need to rewrite some ideas and delete a few unneccessary ones that I realized to have already asked (such as nades). But this tomorrow. Leave your feedback meanwhile

[GARY OAK]

Well no, this would just bias players with high end rigs (like my self) about who gets first picks of what weapon upgrades they use.

The current system is already bias to players with high end rigs, this would just make the situation worse.

This is not the right way to fix it. if you get upset with the weapon unlock system go play on a classic server, i recommend 40-1 [classic]

[PhoenixDragon]

Limiting the number of cosmetic unlocks seems completely pointless. It has no effect on gameplay, and is probably going to annoy more people than it pleases.

However, there's a slightly more serious issue with this plan:

Originally Posted by Fulgenzio

Sniper rifles: I have little knowledge to these as I rarely use them. Considering them I'd say to REVERT the unlockings , making last level upgrades first ones instead, as I read that the ones the game gives at start were the least used, while level 50 were most popular.

Stuff like that. Put simply, it kind of defeats the entire point of a progression system to have the best equipment available at the beginning, with each later upgrade being, quite simply, worse than the previous. The scopes are ordered by magnification so that currently, the higher your level, the higher the magnification you get. Reversing the order makes the later upgrades largely pointless.

At least you acknowledge this in the case of the PPSh, mentioning the need (No "maybe" about it) to incentivise the stick mag in order to make it actually useful as an unlock. That could be a problem though, when the real-world advantages of the stick mag were primarily the lack of rattle that the drum makes when moving (Largely irrelevant, as we're in heavy combat, not night-time sneaking), and reliability issues (Which simply don't exist in the game). There's not much that can be done, at the moment, to actually make them more desirable, and if they continue to be simply worse than the drum mags, they don't work as an "upgrade."

Also, as a bit of a nitpick:

Mg34:The real life version is the level 1 one. The others are historically inaccurate, however considering possible rage caused by its removal I decided to put it the same way as mkb 42.
Mg34 Level 25: Two people max. (150 rounds are quite much)
Mg34 Level 50: Just one person, need hero rank.

The second-level MG34 (Unlocked at level 25) only has 75 rounds (Not 150), compared to the first-level's 50. A belt-fed MG34 without assault drum (Like the third-level MG34 unlocked at 50) actually resembles its frequent (Possibly most frequent) use, with loose belts not in a belt carrier; the normal belt is only 50 rounds, but it can be chained together for longer belts, such as the game's 150.

If done right, the third-level MG34 probably most closely resembles what should be the first-level. Cut it down to single 50-round belts, which would probably be slightly faster to reload than the 50-round assault drum, and then add penalties so that movement is less convenient. At that point, it makes sense to have the assault drum be an actual upgrade, as it should be; now when you get it, you're much more capable of moving and supporting an assault with it, able to redeploy quicker and more easily without messing with a fiddly loose belt getting in the way. Such a setup would also give a good reason to switch which one is used depending on the situation; the assault-drum version is better when moving a lot, while the loose-belt version might be better for sustained fire from a single location. It also might be the first step toward making assistant gunners useful, by letting them link up extra belts for longer continuous fire (The final step being, "make playing an assistant gunner actually entertaining...").

[GnaM]

While I applaud your attempt to rework the broken progression system, I increasingly feel that having a progression system at all has no merits outside of Action Mode.

Micromanaging your gear makes sense in modern-era games where you play a PMC, but in the German and Soviet militaries, you didn't have much of a choice - you just had to use the stuff you were issued. For that matter, most soldiers didn't get to decide their role in a squad, either - that's a compromise of gameplay over realism that we should feel glad about.

IMO, the progression system and upgrades should all be tossed out of Standard/Realism modes other than standard issue equipment like bayonettes, PPSH drum mags and fire selector, etc. which should be part of the normal loadout for everyone.

IMO the Mkb42 should probably be removed from most, if not all maps. For the G41 and SVT-40, rather than providing "roles" specifically dedicated to them, riflemen could have something like a 1/8 chance of receiving one each time they spawn. Likewise, the cosmetic condition of all weapons could be randomized on spawn.

Originally Posted by Fulgenzio

SVT40: Same as above, though this is also due to its high quality muzzle brake which gives a good advantage.

Rather than providing a muzzle brake as an upgrade, I think technically the SVT-40 should just have lower recoil across the board - IRL the 7.62x55mm cartridge exhibits lower recoil than .30-06 or 7.62 NATO, while the 8mm Mauser exhibits higher recoil than all of them.

Originally Posted by PhoenixDragon

At least you acknowledge this in the case of the PPSh, mentioning the need (No "maybe" about it) to incentivise the stick mag in order to make it actually useful as an unlock.

I know I've mentioned this before, but IMO they should introduce a minor chance for mis-feeds and jamming with all automatic and semi-automatic weapons. This could provide an incentive to use bolt actions over self-loading rifles, and stick mags over drums, while allowing the PPSH's recoil to be realistically lowered without hurting balance.

Originally Posted by PhoenixDragon

If done right, the third-level MG34 probably most closely resembles what should be the first-level. Cut it down to single 50-round belts, which would probably be slightly faster to reload than the 50-round assault drum, and then add penalties so that movement is less convenient. At that point, it makes sense to have the assault drum be an actual upgrade, as it should be; now when you get it, you're much more capable of moving and supporting an assault with it, able to redeploy quicker and more easily without messing with a fiddly loose belt getting in the way. Such a setup would also give a good reason to switch which one is used depending on the situation; the assault-drum version is better when moving a lot, while the loose-belt version might be better for sustained fire from a single location. It also might be the first step toward making assistant gunners useful, by letting them link up extra belts for longer continuous fire (The final step being, "make playing an assistant gunner actually entertaining...").

I like this idea. The LMG's in RO are basically used more like BARs or Chauchats rather than crew-served MG's so I think you kinda have to limit them to ~50 round magazine capacity. Basically if they can't work in-game like real crew-served LMG's then they should at least work like real squad automatic rifles rather than unreal Rambo LMG's. However, your belt scheme basically grants semi-crewserved firepower in exchange for semi-crewserved team play - which is better than nothing. It would also compensate a bit for some of the weapon handling adjustments I suggested further up - if the various Russian automatics all have lower recoil and the Germans lose their Mkb's, then they'll probably need all the MG34 firepower they can get.

My only reservation is how the mobility limitations of the belt would be implemented. Right now the LMG's are already too awkward in-game due to the frequent "can't deploy here" and "can't prone here" errors; if using the 50 belt heaps any more awkwardness on top of that I'd rather just have the assault drum.

[PhoenixDragon]

Originally Posted by GnaM

I know I've mentioned this before, but IMO they should introduce a minor chance for mis-feeds and jamming with all automatic and semi-automatic weapons. This could provide an incentive to use bolt actions over self-loading rifles, and stick mags over drums, while allowing the PPSH's recoil to be realistically lowered without hurting balance.

I'm a little cautious about misfire chance. To work in a game, it needs to be related to player behavior to some degree. If it's a random X% chance os happening per shot, then it just works as a random "screw you." If that chance is largely dependent on player actions (Such as a loose-belt MG fired while maneuvering or the like), so that the player can act to actively mitigate that chance, then it starts looking more appealing. It is, however, one of the few ways to make stick mags more attractive than drums.

It'd be a very complex and fiddly system to get right, rather than just make annoying. I'm all for it, if done right, but it'll be a fair bit of work.

My only reservation is how the mobility limitations of the belt would be implemented. Right now the LMG's are already too awkward in-game due to the frequent "can't deploy here" and "can't prone here" errors; if using the 50 belt heaps any more awkwardness on top of that I'd rather just have the assault drum.

Making the assault drum more desirable is kind of the point :> But I don't mean in making it harder to deploy or the like, just less useful on the move (Maybe slightly slower deploy and general weapon use). If misfires were in play, possibly also add a second "setup" step, where you can arrange your belt for your deployed position, and you have a higher misfire chance until you do. I was watching some helmet-cam footage of combat in Afghanistan, and was amused to see how much time the guys with loose-belt MGs spent fiddling with their belts every time they shifted even half a foot.

[GnaM]

Originally Posted by PhoenixDragon

I'm a little cautious about misfire chance. To work in a game, it needs to be related to player behavior to some degree. If it's a random X% chance os happening per shot, then it just works as a random "screw you." If that chance is largely dependent on player actions (Such as a loose-belt MG fired while maneuvering or the like), so that the player can act to actively mitigate that chance, then it starts looking more appealing. It is, however, one of the few ways to make stick mags more attractive than drums.

It'd be a very complex and fiddly system to get right, rather than just make annoying. I'm all for it, if done right, but it'll be a fair bit of work.

Well, let's clarify something. I'm not suggesting implementing serious weapon failures, like damaged magazines that won't feed ANY rounds correctly till you replace them, or damaged internal parts which require you to disassemble and reassemble the gun on site. What I'm suggesting is a basic stoppage that just requires racking the slide or pulling the charging handle to clear. Real soldiers are trained so they do this immediately on instinct as soon as a weapon stops firing, and in-game, experienced players will probably do this too, the same way they slap the "bandage" key as soon as they get shot.

So while most of the user behavior factors which either prevent or cause jams cannot be simulated within the FPS framework, the behavior component which can be simulated is how quickly and appopriately the user responds to the stoppage.

Newbies will probably assume their mag is empty and reload, which will waste time even if the reload animation intrinsically cocks the gun and clears the jam; a skilled player will count the rounds they fire so they almost always know whether their weapon is empty or jammed. Some players will probably become over-eager with the "clear jam" key and constantly hit it "just in case". This will come with a minor penalty; taking up a half second and usually wasting a single round of ammunition. Also, allowing your use of the "clear jam" key to become too automatic could result in getting killed when you should have sprinted from the grenade or made a bayonet thrust instead.

While I'm less enthused about this aspect, there could be a menu option to "automatically clear jams", which maybe works for action and standard modes, but not classic or realism. With this option enabled you wouldn't have to know what's wrong with your weapon, and from the player's perspective jamming would just consist of their avatar randomly executing the "charging handle" animation every so often when they go to fire.

And above all, the actual incidence rate of jamming is negotiable. While it needs to be proportionally higher for some weapons and lower for others, the root probability could be high enough that it happens once per game or low enough that it happens once a week.

Originally Posted by PhoenixDragon

Making the assault drum more desirable is kind of the point :> But I don't mean in making it harder to deploy or the like, just less useful on the move (Maybe slightly slower deploy and general weapon use). If misfires were in play, possibly also add a second "setup" step, where you can arrange your belt for your deployed position, and you have a higher misfire chance until you do. I was watching some helmet-cam footage of combat in Afghanistan, and was amused to see how much time the guys with loose-belt MGs spent fiddling with their belts every time they shifted even half a foot.

This all sounds good, my only point was simply that with the current buggy LMG implementation, heaping anything else, even if it's a minor speed penalty caused by the belt, could make things intolerably frustrating. As is, it seems you're constantly poking your head out trying to deploy on things you can't. Then you try to prone instead, and you can't see or shoot over all the obstacles around you. So then you go around to another spot, and someone just threw smoke in front of it, or too many teammates are in your crossfire. With so much trial and error involved, you tend you already get killed in the midst of walking back and forth looking for a vantage point; any speed penalties could only worsen the situation. It's not a problem with your idea, it's just a problem with RO's bugginess.

I guess if the belt is always optional and not something you are randomly issued and stuck with, players would only have themselves to blame if they insisted on using the more difficult option. In practice, experienced players who know where they can deploy and where they can't would be seen with the belt in droves (like real life), while others would use the drum exclusively to avoid issues. My only reservation is that since in real life, you were generally stuck with what you were issued, I would steer away from indulging any more "customization" options than absolutely necessary.