Why are the Mgs so unbalanced
- Thread starter Hesgad
- Start date
I really do hope they tweak the MG's in an upcoming patch.
IT just seems absurd to me that the MG's recoil MORE when you deploy them then when you hip fire.
Deployed MG's should not kick up like that, no where near as good as they were in RO
st even when you factor in the huge unrealistic "kick up" when hip firing in it. I'd trade the terrible hip-fire over the huge kick up when deployed that we have now.
As it stands, doing what an MG does and finding a good spot to lay down fire from a good location is just not working out that well at all. What you can do will simply get you shot by a rifleman/smg. Everything the MG can do is done better by the SMG class when you factor in both the less recoil, the range, etc.
IT just seems absurd to me that the MG's recoil MORE when you deploy them then when you hip fire.
Deployed MG's should not kick up like that, no where near as good as they were in RO
st even when you factor in the huge unrealistic "kick up" when hip firing in it. I'd trade the terrible hip-fire over the huge kick up when deployed that we have now.As it stands, doing what an MG does and finding a good spot to lay down fire from a good location is just not working out that well at all. What you can do will simply get you shot by a rifleman/smg. Everything the MG can do is done better by the SMG class when you factor in both the less recoil, the range, etc.
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It's spelled "you're". LOL.
I'm on aussie servers all the time.
Keep watching. It will be on the kill feed regularly. Assuming you're on the same servers.
LOL. OK whatever. I just came here to brag about how good I am at a game I've never played. You keep telling yourself that, if it helps you sleep at night.
Then what is your problem?
Well, then you are a bad shot. I do 3 round bursts that kill enemies at 100m+ all the time. Most of my kills are at least that far away unless I'm house clearing.
The gun can do it, so it must be the gunner.
If you knew what you were talking about, you would know I know what I'm talking about, and you would be able to tell I have some sort of first hand knowledge. I have fired a machine gun at targets 300m away. Have you? From what you say, I know you haven't.
Why not? You seem to know I'm wrong, so surely you have the right way to do it? So show us the 3rd aren't a bunch of amateurs and tell me the difference between a light machine gun, a heavy machine gun and a general purpose machine gun. It shouldn't be hard, I have already done it in a post above.
Go ahead and try to find ANY evidence at all that what I said in that post (with supporting "evidence") is not correct.
Bahaha. You really have no idea at all, do you? I can spell it out for you, I could even pull up a US Army manual or something, and you'd still refuse to believe it.
You have made your mind up that what you think is the truth, and no amount of reason or evidence will make you change your mind. That's why you suck at this game. This is a thinking man's game.
It is. The problem you have is you don't know the difference between the roles, and as such have no idea at all why my argument is relevant. You are POSITIVE that an MG on a bipod should be able to fire all day without moving. You are utterly wrong. You are not only ignorant, you are wilfully ignorant, because you won't even let anyone educate you.
It's your loss. I'm not the one moaning about the game. I'm having a great time with all aspects of it. Well, except for it being too easy most of the time because of people like you.
See, you don;t even know what the kind of shooting you are doing is or why. ANY firearm is a support weapon, if it is used to support someone else. An MG is a support weapon, but so is a SMG and rifle.
What YOU are talking about is "sustained fire". Go ahead and look it up on Google. Sustained fire is when you start firing the gun, and you don't stop until you run out of ammo.
A tripod is a sustained fire mount. A bipod is not. It's that simple....
Everyone with a gun is providing covering fire and suppressing the enemy. See, you think those things are based on the gun, they are not. They are tactics that have nothing to do with the weapon employed.
An LMG (or SAW) is a force multiplier. It is meant to have the same effect as adding another ten men to the platoon and giving them all rifles. It's not that they do different things to everyone else. It's that they do it more.
The LMG simply is NOT a sustained fire weapon, because you are not carrying enough ammo, nor have a firm enough mount, nor have the cover and stand-off range required to survive.
Stop trying to fight the weapon. You say 3 to 5 round bursts are inaccurate. Me and others have had no problem at all. So clearly it's not the game, it's the player. I believe you are actually firing longer bursts, but don't realise it. The MG 34 is extremely fast firing, so keeping the bursts to 3 rounds is not easy, especially when you're under pressure.
By the way, when you say the last round of a 5 round bursts is wildly high... that's because it is. That's why you go for three round bursts. You are trying to let as many bullets through as you can before the barrel rises. At these rates of fire, that is no more than 3 rounds. The next two of a 5 round burst are just a waste. Fire three let the barrel drop and fire another three. You'll waste less ammo and kill more enemies quicker.
That depends on the situation. The gunner is usually static during the final assault, but that isn't because he has an MG. It's because he is covering. If it was two squads of riflemen, one squad would cover and the other would assault.
You see, everything an MG can do, ten or so riflemen can do. That's the whole point of the MG. When you are carrying the bolt action rifle, the section commander would yel out to you and the other riflemen a target, then say something like "10 rounds, rapid fire". What that means is you fire ten rounds at a rate that means you aren't as accurate (you're rushing it), but can keep it up all day and still be landing a lot of rounds on target.
So ten riflemen all firing ten rounds as quickly as they can while still aiming, and you have the same thing as a machine gun firing a hundred rounds in controlled bursts. That is why the MG is called a force multiplier. It has the same effect as ten men while only requiring one.
Define "with". When I was doing it, we were rarely "near" the rest of the platoon, but we would be covering it. We would bound ahead, then cover them as they move forward, then bound ahead, then cover and so on. While we were moving they would be covering. While we're covering they are moving.
So most of the time I'd be a hundred metres away from the rest of the squad, depending on terrain.
Yes, it is. You refuse to believe it, but not ONE of the videos people have shown actually shows the fall of shot. Find a video that shows someone using a MG 34 to fire long sustained bursts from a bipod at a standard man sized target set 100m away. Show them putting the whole belt through the target in one go, and I might believe you.
Um... comparing another game to this game is stupid. First you have to prove the other game is even remotely accurate, and trust me that game is not as accurate as they like you to think.
Try finding ANY source that says the role of the squad machine gunner is to provide long range sustained fire support. Or even short range SUSTAINED fire support. Notice the capitalised word. It's important.
Why do I need statements from other guys who have served in the Army? I've done it myself. I have assaulted a position (in training - never been in battle) with an MG and I'm simply telling you the way I was taught to do it.
I have even put up quotes from Wikipedia pages that tell you you're wrong. Actually, go ahead. Go and ask those mates of yours what the difference is between a bipod mounted GPMG and a tripod mounted GPMG. Ask them who is issued them, and how they use them.
You'll never come back to tell me the results. People hate admitting they were wrong.
OK then, how should it be done? I know YOUR way isn't working or you wouldn't be whining about it. You have not shown or even claimed to have shown that I am wrong.
All you have done is stick your fingers in your ears and yell "nuh uh! I'm not listening!!!"
Who is the moron again?
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Which comments? That I don't know what I'm talking about, or that the MG 34 is not accurately modelled in the game? How do they know either of those things? Have they used a MG 34? Did they read what I said?
Or are you just showing them how you can't hit anything, and having your FRIENDS tell you "it must be the game"?
You seem to think I am saying the MG is not used to support the squad. I have never said anything remotely like that. I have said spraying rounds at nothing is NOT supporting the squad.
Ask those soldier mates of yours if they didn't mind carrying twice as much ammo just so the gunner can feel like Rambo. Remember, every bullet you fire has to be carried to the front line by the PBI. I'm pretty sure they would prefer if you actually killed things with them. They sure as hell don't want to have to keep bringing you ammo just so you can throw it away.
Dude, you can barely form a coherent sentence. I think you're saying "why would I lie?". The same thing goes for me. Why would *I* lie? What do I have to gain by telling you these things? Do you think I'm trying to trick you into playing badly?
You know, I think I may have an idea what you are doing that is causing your problem.
When you fire controlled bursts, do you aim at their head, chest, hips or knees? I always start with the knees or even feet if they are further away. What you want to do is walk the round ONTO the target rather than OFF it.
If you start aiming at centre-mass or the head, only the first round has any chance of hitting. If you aim at the knees or feet, that first round can hit the legs, the second can hit the torso, and the third will go high unless you compensate by pulling back a bit as you fire.
The idea is to try and make every round count, rather than aiming the first round and hoping the rest go sort of in the right place.
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Says who?
Where does all the energy of the fired round go then? Does it just disappear?
As for there being more recoil when deployed than from the hip, I have to ask, are we playing the same game? They are not even remotely like that at all. You are totally INVENTING problems now. Anyone with a brain and two minutes can quickly test and see for themselves that that is not even remotely true.
Seriously, WTF.
Because it doesn't work that way in real life, either. RO:OST was NOT realistic. Even TWI admits this. When will you accept the truth?
The ONLY thing unrealistic about the MG's in this game is also the thing I see complained about the least - the iron sights restriction. other than that, the MG's work just the way someone who has used a real one would expect.
No, what YOU can do will simply get you shot. Don't assume we all have that same problem. I know what I'm doing.
Maybe for you. I can use any of the main weapons effectively so I'm pretty sure that no matter what weapon I had, I could beat you. No joke.
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Besides his harsh tone, one thing that KarmakazeNZ has been saying is so true that I think it needs repetition. That is, suppression isn't some magic, it is forcing defensive action caused by very real possibility of getting hit.
You can't expect to spary bullets into a building then expect the other team in it to get "drunk" off some gamey suppression effect and call it "realistic suppression".
Yeah, gamers are fearless in game because they can just respawn.
Guess what, make your bullets count and kill them then. Sure, gamers don't "fear" death, but they sure hate it enough to avoid it. Suppression in this game offers just enough hint of immersion, any more would be just gamey.
You can't expect to spary bullets into a building then expect the other team in it to get "drunk" off some gamey suppression effect and call it "realistic suppression".
Yeah, gamers are fearless in game because they can just respawn.
Guess what, make your bullets count and kill them then. Sure, gamers don't "fear" death, but they sure hate it enough to avoid it. Suppression in this game offers just enough hint of immersion, any more would be just gamey.
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You're right about that. I'm trying to not sound so harsh, but I get pissed off at people blaming the game when even a few minutes research would tell them what they are doing wrong. This game really does need a training feature.
Think of me as a drill sergeant if that makes it less insulting. I'm harsh for your own good
But seriously. I'm not trying to be rude, it just comes out that way sometimes. I am not even trying to criticise people. I don't mean to say "you suck because you suck", I'm trying to say "you suck because you're doing it wrong - try this way". Sometimes though when someone who clearly doesn't know comes back and starts trying to argue, without even TRYING it.... well then I get harsh.
Sooner or later I am going to try and fraps some stuff so I can show people what I mean instead of trying to describe it. Rmember, I am not saying I'm the best FPSer ever!!! I'm saying that even a half blind old man like me can do well if you use the right tactics.
I have a friend who will head shot you from 200m without really even trying, because he has great eyes. He can kill me when i can;t even see him. But we are still pretty equal because my tactical awareness allows me to use every advantage I can find to level the playing field. This is why I'm amazed at times. There are players who are a lot better at me at the basics. Better eyes, better reaction times, coolness under pressure, and yet I still usually score and kill more than them simply because of this sort of stuff.
They are in the wrong place at the wrong time too often, while I'm at the right pace at the right time more often than not.
I agree I love the immersiveness of it. When you get that slo mo feeling or the ringing and the heart pounding, it makes for an awesome experience. BUT the problem is, it's like a "I'm being shot at / I'm not being shot at" indicator.
If I am not seeing the "suppression" then I KNOW the bullets are nowhere near me. In fact the gunner might not even know I'm there.. hmm I might just pop up and have a shot at him...
See what I mean? That is why the "suppression" doesn't work. Not because it doesn't do anything, but because it HELPS the target figure out what you are shooting at. If you use the realistic method for dealing with a MG suppressing you, which is to disperse and take shots at the gun from any position not currently being suppressed, it turns out the "suppression effect" actually HELPS the riflemen to popup and kill you.
If it just didn't stop them from popping up, I'd be fine with it. I WANT them to pop up.. "Come on just your forehead... that's all I need..."
That is the way I'm thinking when I see a rifleman go into cover. I'm NOT thinking "I hope my rounds are making his screen shake... that will SOOOO piss him off"..
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There is another problem in this discussion though. When I am talking about the proper way to use the gun, I mean as part of a section. In the New Zealand Army we had three sections per platoon. Each section would have riflemen, grenadiers and gunners. The gunners had a gun plus ammo and barrel and a Steyr. The grenadiers had 40mm and rocket launchers (we had the 80mm LAW). The riflemen had Steyrs. 2 gunners, 2 grenadiers and 6 riflemen. They would be commanded by a corporal or sergeant.
Everyone worked as a pair. The "gun group" as it was called always stayed together, but worked separately from the rest because while the rest moved, we covered, and when we moved the rest covered.
The combat pair worked the same way as the gun group does with the rest of the section. While the gunner was moving, the second gunner would cover. While the second gunner was moving the gunner would cover. Each combat pair would do the same.
What this means is that while half the section are up and moving, the other half are down and covering.
So say you had a situation where you came across an enemy in a trench. The gunner would start trying to kill him (I put it that way rather than saying "he tried to suppress him" because that is what he is actually trying to do). The gunner would keep firing bursts at the guy, hoping to hit him, but at the least keep his head down. There is a reason for this. You are keeping his head down so the rest of your section can move to a position where THEY can kill him. If he's still alive when they get there, he won't be for long.
Suppression is not the end goal. It is just a means to an end. Killing the enemy is the goal. If the gunenr kills the enemy, he doesn't stop firing, just in case. If he doesn;t kill the enemy, the gunner doesn't stop trying to kill the enemy, he just keeps trying until the rest of the section are safe or can kill him themselves.
So this stuff doesn't work in isolation (well it does to a degree, but it's not the intention.) The gunner can't survive on his own, any more than the section can survive without a gun. It is a symbiotic relationship they protect each other. The problem is, when people don't know what they are supposed to be doing they don't do it.
So when I fire that burst that almost hit the guy in the trench and he ducked, the riflemen are NOT supposed to be standing there trying to get the shot themselves. They are supposed to be using that small window to MOVE to a better position so that they can hit him, or cover me while I move.
What I see is everyone trying to be the one that actually gets the kill, and thus no one does, and often they or the gunner die.
So think about that from the enemy's perspective. he pops up and sees the MG firing at him, but he may also see the rest of the section moving rapidly to attack him. Does he go for the gun, that isn't hitting him, or the rest of the section that might get close enough to throw a grenade into the trench with him. That moment of indecision may be all you need to get the hit, and is in fact part of "suppression".
As the gunner you are TRYING to draw fire. You want them shooting at you, where you have some cover in a supported position and can shoot back accurately, rather than at your section that is currently moving and unable to defend themselves. When the section gets to a good position, they will start shooting and you can move. Covering fire is also about drawing attention.
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So what you're saying is the kick on the MGs is how it should be? I really have a hard time believing a solid MG in weight and construction on a bipod has its sights jump up the way they do in the game when they are fired. It just doesn't LOOK right. But its not realyl a big deal if you fire in controlled bursts so regardless its not a big deal at all I suppose...
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Well, 100% honestly, I've never fired a MG 34, so I'm not sure how THAT gun should be. I HAVE fired a C-9 Minimi (a variant of the M-249) and even though it has a much lower powered round, it does jump a little when firing it from a bipod.
Let me explain. When the gun fires, it recoils. This recoil is energy being dissipated. It has to go somewhere. If it doesn't go into moving the gun, it has to go somewhere else. A bipod is NOT a recoil compensator. All it does is hold the barrel up. When the gun fires it still recoils the same as if you were just holding it in your hands.
A tripod on the other hand has recoil compensation built into it, and the gun is locked so that it can only be elevated and traversed by gears. The gun does not move freely when it is being used to provide sustained fire. It is pointed at something, then it starts firing, and the gear might be tweaked to get it to traverse over a few degrees.
The tripod absorbs the recoil either by pure mass or with hydraulic dampers etc. That is how they are able to fire at long ranges and keep firing until they run out of ammo. The man is NOT holding the gun. It is essentially a rapid firing artillery piece.
So if you don't think a MG 34 should be controllable from a prone unsupported stance (ie no bipod) then you should also think it is uncontrollable from the bipod.
The bipod simply helps you to hold up a heavy barrel for longer. It's not going to help you to absorb the recoil. This is why I say the no iron sights in undeployed stances is rubbish. A MG on a bipod has no less felt recoil than an MG being held in the hands. As long as you can hold the barrel up, you can fire it standing unsupported if you compensate for the recoil. The best way to do that is to fire 3 round bursts so there isn't enough time for the recoil to ruin your aim, just like hip firing. If you can fire it from the hip, how come you can't fire it from the shoulder where you are more easily able to deal with the recoil?
It really makes no sense whatsoever.
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Here is an example that might help: When I was in training, I spent some time hanging with a support platoon. They were providing support fire for an exercise by firing live rounds over the "enemy" at a tree stump. The stump was about 300m away. The gunner had a FN GPMG mounted on a tripod. He was firing 200 round belts, and through slight adjustments of the traversing gear, eventually cut the tree stump down.
When he was firing, he would just use one finger to pull the trigger. The gun would fire 200 rounds dead on target, and the gunner only had ONE FINGER touching the gun.
Try doing that with the same gun on a bipod and see how far it goes... backwards.
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As already shown in countless videos, the MG's when deployed the energy causes the gun to go back slighty, not to fly up in the freaking air.
MG34 - YouTube
As far as hip goes, maybe it's just me, but I can hip-fire the MG-34 and keep the sights on target MUCH easier then when deployed, there's no huge kick up for me when I hip fire vs deployed in burst. When deployed after a small burst you have to bring it back down to get it back where it was, hip firing I don't need to do this at all.
no they do not, the recoil kicking upward doesn't work like the guns in real life.
As far as the role goes, In WWII MG's had many roles, one of the main ones being supression. It's not the same as some MG's today with the role of being in a small squad who's usually focused on moving around.
During WWII a lot of things were built aorund holding up defensive positions, ambushes, etc. This is where the MG shined, especially the MG-34/42. Nothing ocmpared to the sheer amount of bullets it put out and the supression they could unleash.
Supression is real, it exists in real life. When you are hiding behind cover and an MG is putting bullets into it above your head/beside it, the last thing on your mind is "hey, let me peak up." You dig in, and this gives time for his buddies to outflank you.
One of the main tactics of wwII Was the four F's, Find, fix, flank, and finish. The MG was outstanding at keeping people pinned down so they could be flanked.
Yes, you can beat me, you have a much bigger e-penis then I
. The supression role of the MG is greatly diminished with the recoil while deployed, there's just no way around it. You can say whatever you want but that is a problem.
You can not put lead down the line with an MG because of the kick up like you should be able to.
I mean watch this:
WW2 German Machine Gun MG34 Maschinen Gewehr in action - firing full auto - YouTube
Look at the sights, those are NOTHING like in-game, there's no huge kick-up from the MG. If you look the force is pushed back into the gunner and offset by them, if anything the sights dip DOWN slighty when going full auto vs bursting.
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Not one of those videos shows the sight picture or the fall of shot. How am I supposed to see how much the aim point is moving by looking at the gun from the side?
Your HEARTBEAT can make a highly accurate sniper rifle miss at longer ranges, so tell me, if that gun is jumping around like that, how can the aim point NOT be swinging wildly around?
So, show me the money. Don't show me the gun, show me the target. Show me the gun putting all those rounds in the same place on the target. Show none of them missing. If you do that I will believe you that the MG 34 in RO2 is wrong. Looking at these videos, I don't see it.
I can clearly see the barrel moving a lot, and I believe I can even SEE the rotation. But that's a matter of opinion unless we can see where the bullets are actually going.
Weird. I never have. That's why I keep using the term "let the barrel fall" when saying why you should pause after 3 rounds. Have a look at those videos and you can see it doing exactly that.
Now think about this. Even if the gun remains perfectly aligned the way it was before it moves, the gun has indeed moved. If your whole body is being lifted up an inch, how can a target that only looks an inch or so high still be in your sights? The only way to do that would be to intentionally rotate the muzzle down to keep the target in the sights while the whole gun moves upwards.
It sounds like the in game gun works PERFECTLY, as you seem to find the need to rotate the barrel down when firing the gun.
Take a bead on a target while you're standing up, then crouch. What happens? The entire world looks like it raised up at you. The gun is still pointing at exactly the same relative point in space, but that point has ALSO moved down. If the gun moves, the impact point must move, unless the barrel is rotated to compensate for the movement.
It's pretty much common sense really.
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I just noticed something I didn't want to let slide:
Actually, those drum mags were made specifically so the gunner could run around with the rest of his squad. There is no other reason for them. I dealt with the "suppression" vs "sustained fire" issue above. Suppression is not a feature of the MG or any weapon. It is a tactic employed by everything from pistols and SMG's to artillery and airpower. MG's are good at suppression simply because they are like having many riflemen firing at once. That is all.
Suppression is not about firing as many rounds as possible to scare people. It is about being so determined to kill them, that they get stuck wherever they are and can't do anything. You can suppress a target by firing one round at him every time he tries to move. You can suppress a target by distracting him with something else. Suppression is simply the tactic of getting someone to stop moving or shooting by never letting them move or shoot in safety, if possible - if at any point you can kill them, that is what you want to do. That is the ultimate and permanent suppression.
So anything you do to suppress them must never prevent the primary goal of killing them. If you are firing so wildly that the guy thinks you couldn't hit a barn door and he stands up and shoots you, that is because you couldn't hit him, not because suppression doesn't work. Your wild firing taught him to believe you couldn't hit anything because you fired so many rounds without hitting anything. Sooner or later, he's going to take a look and see if you are actually shooting at him, or just shooting wild, and that's when you need to kill him, but can't because you are out of ammo or the gun is totally off target and out of control.
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I just wanted to add one more little bit of evidence that I am not talking ****:
That, my friends, is EXACTLY what I was taught, and I have done it over and over again in training, for real. EVERYONE. Gunner, Corporal, Radioman, EVERYONE, does this. Now, for your edification, I will explain WHY we did those things.
"Double tap"
This means that your VERY first reaction, no matter what, is to fire two shots (or a burst) in the direction of the incoming fire. They are aimed only in so far as you don't just shoot randomly, but at the most likely source of the fire, either by seeing it, or just feeling or whatever.
"Run two or three steps"
This is because your double tap has marked your position clearly to anyone looking for a target, so you simply throw off their aim a bit by running a few steps. Note, you have NOT crouched or gone prone... at least you have not changed stance. You just fire two shots and move about two to three paces away, preferably in the direction of some cover.
"Drop to the ground or into cover"
Even if you are in the open, go prone. If you are right beside a trench, go prone beside the trench if you have to, but get as low as you can as quick as you can. You've thrown off their aim by moving, but not for long. If you keep moving they will lead you and kill you because you are upright.
A small target is a low profile target. Crouching is not low profile, even if you are behind a wall. Penetrating rounds can kill. Fragmentation from grenades can kill. Fragmentation from the cover itself can kill. Low profile is always safer. In real terrain, going prone in the grass alone can make you invisible, let alone little rises in the land between you and the enemy.
If it's just grass, it's concealment. If it's solid land or anything that can stop reasonably heavy calibre rounds it's cover. Most structures do not provide cover. They provide concealment. A heavy machine gun will shoot right through a typical modern brick house and kill people on the other side.You will be safer prone on the ground outside, than crouching inside, unless the enemy HAS seen you. Prone inside, is the safest option.
Do not think this is the end. This is just what you do so that you don't die before you can actually begin fighting.
"Crawl a few yards (or move under concealment/cover)"
Now, you have survived the initial contact, but the enemy knows exactly where you are. He will kill you or suppress you unless you move. You do not run to a window and try to fire back. You will die. You move deeper into the house, or crawl a few metres along the trench or whatever you have to do so that if a grenade lands at the point where you first went prone, it will not hurt you. When tanks are around, and one was shooting at you or likely saw you, remember a HE shell has a lot bigger bang than a hand grenade.
"Observe"
This is why running into a structure is not actually the desirable option. It's better than open fields, but not if there is rolling terrain. If you enter a structure, then you must put your head into a hole in the cover to see what is going on. This is what the enemy is looking for. He can't see through walls, so he's looking at the windows and holes that he can see through. You just went to all that trouble so that he didn't know where you were, but now you have just shown him. If he takes the shot, you have to go back to step one... or die trying.
Rolling terrain in open country is still preferable to that because you have so much choice as to where you stick your head up and what is behind it (to disguise the outline of your head). The goal is always to remain unobserved by the enemy. If the enemy knows where you are, he can kill you, so don't give him that chance.
Being concealed is not just about him not seeing you it's about him not knowing where you are. If you run behind the only bush in a field, you better hope the terrain allows you to crawl away from it without being noticed, or you will die.
So at this point you are looking to find the enemy. If he's shooting, look for tracer, muzzle flash, terrain disturbance. Dust and foliage movement is a bigger give away than muzzle flash and smoke. The flash might be the size of a man's head, but the whole bush might shake, and a cloud of dust lingers.
If you can't see any trace of his fire, or he isn't shooting, think about places that might be possible to hide far behind. A small hill in the foreground could allow a guy 100m away standing upright to be totally concealed. Think about how the engagement began and look for likely ways he may have seen you and place he might have chosen to move to to get a better shot at you. If this wasn't a planned ambush, he may be doing this drill, double tap, run, drop and so on.
Your ears are better than your eyes for searching for a target. Listen for fire, listen for movement or yelling. If you think you hear him, look and see, but don't get seen. Also look for outgoing fire heading in the direction of the enemy. Everyone should be doing what you are doing, so if one of them took a shot, he must have seen the enemy. Try and see where his fire is landing, because that will give you a point to start searching from.
"Shoot"
Now this is important. You DO NOT shoot at any likely place he may be. If you do, and he is not, or you do not hit him, you have just given away your location. Only shoot if you SEE a target. If you see a guy drop into cover, shoot at him. If you just THINK a guy may be in cover, do not shoot at it just to see if he is there.
You are not trying scare the enemy, you are simply suppressing him, if not killing him, when you see him, and indicating his location to your platoon. At least at this stage. Remember, this is all happening within a few seconds of the first shot being fired at you.
"Move"
Now comes the most important part, MOVE. Stay concealed, not necessarily in cover, but unobserved by the enemy, and move at least 5 to 10 metres. It doesn't matter where as much as that you do it.
If you are not in contact with your squad leader, try to move towards them. If you were unable to observe the enemy or he is in a position that still directly threatens you, for example if you dropped in long grass and moved, but still have no solid cover between you and the enemy, now look for better cover. If you can't get to it by moving no more than 10m then, at least move towards it, but at the 10m mark stop, and move on to the next part.
"Observe"
Now you are not just looking for the enemy again, you are also looking for squad members etc and likely routes the enemy may be taking when he moves and the best routes you can see to move to better cover or closer to the enemy or your squad leader. Even if you were in cover, leave the cover and move into only concealment if that is necessary to move, because at this point you are now trying to form up with your squad as much as you are fighting the enemy. You are not attacking the enemy, you are simply killing easy targets or keeping them from following you or whatever while you try to reform the squad, ready for orders.
You do these last two steps over and over again until you rejoin your squad or, and this is important, you are shot at again. If you are shot at you start over. There are slight differences in some of the repeated steps, so that is why you mentally start over, even though it is mostly the same as just repeating the last two.
The order part comes next. This is when the platoon or squad commander decides how to deal with the enemy. Remember, at this stage the enemy is no longer meant to know where you are to any great precision. He may know you are on the other side of this field somewhere, but you can't shoot that.
In other words, if a 10 man squad runs into a battalion sized defensive position, they don't get themselves killed, and can safely fall back to their parent unit, because the enemy doesn't know where they are, and every time they move it makes it less likely the enemy can even guess.
These drills are done by anyone no matter what weapon they are carrying. A machine gunner simply fires a three round burst when a rifleman would fire single shot. When the section commander is controlling your fire, he will actually call the exact shots he wants, like:
"Gun group! Front 50m, white house. Third window from the left. 3 round burst. Fire!"
or
"Rifle group! Cover your arcs. 5 rounds rapid fire!"
This is how a real infantry unit works.
Now here is an important part for the gunners. If the platoon commander calls for suppressing fire, he doesn't mean you just go somewhere, set up, and start shooting in the general direction of the enemy. What he means is while he is moving the riflemen where he wants them, you will be moving around the area shooting at the enemy. You fire a couple of bursts and move on, not only to make it harder for the enemy to kill you, but because if you didn't kill him with those two bursts, he must have good enough cover that you could shoot at him all day without killing him, and while you are shooting at him, HIS squad is trying to find and kill you.
So you move to find a better position to get the kill. While the gunner is moving the gun, the second gunner will be covering him with suppressive fire. He will take careful aimed shots at the enemy, trying to kill them. He shoots, even if it is just to put a hole in the wall an inch above the enemies head. But the intention is always to kill, if possible, so aiming AT the enemy is always better than over or around the enemy. You may kill him through the cover. They are AIMED shots.
When the gunner sets up again and starts firing, the second gunner joins him nearby, ready to take over the gun if the gunner is hit, and to provide ammo or other assistance with the gun as needed.
They repeat this over and over again, moving back and forth, pushing forward with the riflemen, always trying to kill the enemy and keeping them distracted and focused on the gun. When the rest of the squad is moving at this point, they would have been hidden from the enemy, so they may be running through dead ground or whatever, to carry out the action they were ordered to do, such as moving to a flank. They will be trying to stay completely hidden, so they will not be firing. The only thing shooting is the gun. Every enemy is now thinking... do I look for some guy crawling in the bush, or do I look for that MG that is firing rounds at me every now and then, especially if I try to move?
Most people try to find the guy who is firing. They forget about all the guys who aren't. Don't you do the same. The guy shooting at you may only be one of many. So every time you take a shot, you are asking to get shot. You do not stay in one place long enough for someone to get a good shot at you. If they do, move.
That, my friends, is EXACTLY what I was taught, and I have done it over and over again in training, for real. EVERYONE. Gunner, Corporal, Radioman, EVERYONE, does this. Now, for your edification, I will explain WHY we did those things.
"Double tap"
This means that your VERY first reaction, no matter what, is to fire two shots (or a burst) in the direction of the incoming fire. They are aimed only in so far as you don't just shoot randomly, but at the most likely source of the fire, either by seeing it, or just feeling or whatever.
"Run two or three steps"
This is because your double tap has marked your position clearly to anyone looking for a target, so you simply throw off their aim a bit by running a few steps. Note, you have NOT crouched or gone prone... at least you have not changed stance. You just fire two shots and move about two to three paces away, preferably in the direction of some cover.
"Drop to the ground or into cover"
Even if you are in the open, go prone. If you are right beside a trench, go prone beside the trench if you have to, but get as low as you can as quick as you can. You've thrown off their aim by moving, but not for long. If you keep moving they will lead you and kill you because you are upright.
A small target is a low profile target. Crouching is not low profile, even if you are behind a wall. Penetrating rounds can kill. Fragmentation from grenades can kill. Fragmentation from the cover itself can kill. Low profile is always safer. In real terrain, going prone in the grass alone can make you invisible, let alone little rises in the land between you and the enemy.
If it's just grass, it's concealment. If it's solid land or anything that can stop reasonably heavy calibre rounds it's cover. Most structures do not provide cover. They provide concealment. A heavy machine gun will shoot right through a typical modern brick house and kill people on the other side.You will be safer prone on the ground outside, than crouching inside, unless the enemy HAS seen you. Prone inside, is the safest option.
Do not think this is the end. This is just what you do so that you don't die before you can actually begin fighting.
"Crawl a few yards (or move under concealment/cover)"
Now, you have survived the initial contact, but the enemy knows exactly where you are. He will kill you or suppress you unless you move. You do not run to a window and try to fire back. You will die. You move deeper into the house, or crawl a few metres along the trench or whatever you have to do so that if a grenade lands at the point where you first went prone, it will not hurt you. When tanks are around, and one was shooting at you or likely saw you, remember a HE shell has a lot bigger bang than a hand grenade.
"Observe"
This is why running into a structure is not actually the desirable option. It's better than open fields, but not if there is rolling terrain. If you enter a structure, then you must put your head into a hole in the cover to see what is going on. This is what the enemy is looking for. He can't see through walls, so he's looking at the windows and holes that he can see through. You just went to all that trouble so that he didn't know where you were, but now you have just shown him. If he takes the shot, you have to go back to step one... or die trying.
Rolling terrain in open country is still preferable to that because you have so much choice as to where you stick your head up and what is behind it (to disguise the outline of your head). The goal is always to remain unobserved by the enemy. If the enemy knows where you are, he can kill you, so don't give him that chance.
Being concealed is not just about him not seeing you it's about him not knowing where you are. If you run behind the only bush in a field, you better hope the terrain allows you to crawl away from it without being noticed, or you will die.
So at this point you are looking to find the enemy. If he's shooting, look for tracer, muzzle flash, terrain disturbance. Dust and foliage movement is a bigger give away than muzzle flash and smoke. The flash might be the size of a man's head, but the whole bush might shake, and a cloud of dust lingers.
If you can't see any trace of his fire, or he isn't shooting, think about places that might be possible to hide far behind. A small hill in the foreground could allow a guy 100m away standing upright to be totally concealed. Think about how the engagement began and look for likely ways he may have seen you and place he might have chosen to move to to get a better shot at you. If this wasn't a planned ambush, he may be doing this drill, double tap, run, drop and so on.
Your ears are better than your eyes for searching for a target. Listen for fire, listen for movement or yelling. If you think you hear him, look and see, but don't get seen. Also look for outgoing fire heading in the direction of the enemy. Everyone should be doing what you are doing, so if one of them took a shot, he must have seen the enemy. Try and see where his fire is landing, because that will give you a point to start searching from.
"Shoot"
Now this is important. You DO NOT shoot at any likely place he may be. If you do, and he is not, or you do not hit him, you have just given away your location. Only shoot if you SEE a target. If you see a guy drop into cover, shoot at him. If you just THINK a guy may be in cover, do not shoot at it just to see if he is there.
You are not trying scare the enemy, you are simply suppressing him, if not killing him, when you see him, and indicating his location to your platoon. At least at this stage. Remember, this is all happening within a few seconds of the first shot being fired at you.
"Move"
Now comes the most important part, MOVE. Stay concealed, not necessarily in cover, but unobserved by the enemy, and move at least 5 to 10 metres. It doesn't matter where as much as that you do it.
If you are not in contact with your squad leader, try to move towards them. If you were unable to observe the enemy or he is in a position that still directly threatens you, for example if you dropped in long grass and moved, but still have no solid cover between you and the enemy, now look for better cover. If you can't get to it by moving no more than 10m then, at least move towards it, but at the 10m mark stop, and move on to the next part.
"Observe"
Now you are not just looking for the enemy again, you are also looking for squad members etc and likely routes the enemy may be taking when he moves and the best routes you can see to move to better cover or closer to the enemy or your squad leader. Even if you were in cover, leave the cover and move into only concealment if that is necessary to move, because at this point you are now trying to form up with your squad as much as you are fighting the enemy. You are not attacking the enemy, you are simply killing easy targets or keeping them from following you or whatever while you try to reform the squad, ready for orders.
You do these last two steps over and over again until you rejoin your squad or, and this is important, you are shot at again. If you are shot at you start over. There are slight differences in some of the repeated steps, so that is why you mentally start over, even though it is mostly the same as just repeating the last two.
The order part comes next. This is when the platoon or squad commander decides how to deal with the enemy. Remember, at this stage the enemy is no longer meant to know where you are to any great precision. He may know you are on the other side of this field somewhere, but you can't shoot that.
In other words, if a 10 man squad runs into a battalion sized defensive position, they don't get themselves killed, and can safely fall back to their parent unit, because the enemy doesn't know where they are, and every time they move it makes it less likely the enemy can even guess.
These drills are done by anyone no matter what weapon they are carrying. A machine gunner simply fires a three round burst when a rifleman would fire single shot. When the section commander is controlling your fire, he will actually call the exact shots he wants, like:
"Gun group! Front 50m, white house. Third window from the left. 3 round burst. Fire!"
or
"Rifle group! Cover your arcs. 5 rounds rapid fire!"
This is how a real infantry unit works.
Now here is an important part for the gunners. If the platoon commander calls for suppressing fire, he doesn't mean you just go somewhere, set up, and start shooting in the general direction of the enemy. What he means is while he is moving the riflemen where he wants them, you will be moving around the area shooting at the enemy. You fire a couple of bursts and move on, not only to make it harder for the enemy to kill you, but because if you didn't kill him with those two bursts, he must have good enough cover that you could shoot at him all day without killing him, and while you are shooting at him, HIS squad is trying to find and kill you.
So you move to find a better position to get the kill. While the gunner is moving the gun, the second gunner will be covering him with suppressive fire. He will take careful aimed shots at the enemy, trying to kill them. He shoots, even if it is just to put a hole in the wall an inch above the enemies head. But the intention is always to kill, if possible, so aiming AT the enemy is always better than over or around the enemy. You may kill him through the cover. They are AIMED shots.
When the gunner sets up again and starts firing, the second gunner joins him nearby, ready to take over the gun if the gunner is hit, and to provide ammo or other assistance with the gun as needed.
They repeat this over and over again, moving back and forth, pushing forward with the riflemen, always trying to kill the enemy and keeping them distracted and focused on the gun. When the rest of the squad is moving at this point, they would have been hidden from the enemy, so they may be running through dead ground or whatever, to carry out the action they were ordered to do, such as moving to a flank. They will be trying to stay completely hidden, so they will not be firing. The only thing shooting is the gun. Every enemy is now thinking... do I look for some guy crawling in the bush, or do I look for that MG that is firing rounds at me every now and then, especially if I try to move?
Most people try to find the guy who is firing. They forget about all the guys who aren't. Don't you do the same. The guy shooting at you may only be one of many. So every time you take a shot, you are asking to get shot. You do not stay in one place long enough for someone to get a good shot at you. If they do, move.
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The problem with machineguns in RO2 when compared to RO1 is obvious. Since the zoom option for iron sights was implemented, riflemen can pick you off from virtually any distance and position. You just have to change tactics.
For example, the apartments map. If you mount your MG on the windows (lets say youre playing on the german side) you will be dead within seconds without even knowing who shot you. What you should do is get yourself behind that brick wall and aim at one of the aproaches coming from the trench under the bridges. When the russians start pushing in just spray them fast and reposition on the other flank.
The recoil is more than balanced IMO. If you really need to pick someone off long distance just use the single shot option. For smaller ranges...just shoot a few round bursts and control your recoil with some mouse compensation. C'mon you can't tell me that it's so bad when compared to the PPSH in RO1...
People, adapt.
For example, the apartments map. If you mount your MG on the windows (lets say youre playing on the german side) you will be dead within seconds without even knowing who shot you. What you should do is get yourself behind that brick wall and aim at one of the aproaches coming from the trench under the bridges. When the russians start pushing in just spray them fast and reposition on the other flank.
The recoil is more than balanced IMO. If you really need to pick someone off long distance just use the single shot option. For smaller ranges...just shoot a few round bursts and control your recoil with some mouse compensation. C'mon you can't tell me that it's so bad when compared to the PPSH in RO1...
People, adapt.
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They didn't peek out to take a look because the chance of getting hit by the MG34 before they could make an accurate shot themselves were very high.
Again, make your shots count. Once you kill 2 ~ 3 or just wound everyone that cross your path, trust me, they won't peek out there. Or if they do, kill them. MG34 can easily outshoot rifle if you already have your gun setup and know where they are coming from.
If you get killed by a rifleman you didn't notice? Next time, choose a better covered spot. If you have a serious blindspot that is not covered, you are in a bad spot that wouldn't have worked irl.
And MGs can pick of a whole batch of riflemen at same distance. MG34 is pretty much automatic rifle. If you have your blindspots covered nobody except for snipers can out shoot you.
And the example you gave is a problem with windows. You take any class and go up to a window and same thing will happen. Just because you can deploy your bipads by the windows doesn't mean you should. Yes, you get amazing view of the street... and the whole street gets amazing view of you. Getting killed because you are exposed is not an issue of MG, it's an issue of bad tactics.
There is also one gamey tactic that can make MGs amazing if you know few spots on each map where this is possible. When you setup your bipads and move your view around, your character model actually don't move sometimes and only your gun does. So in Pavlo's House as Axis, if you setup your gun by the first buildin's windows, you can turn your view to face all the buildings that Russians uses to take cover and stay immune to fire from them because you are at such an angle that all they will see is your gun and not your character.
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I believe the machine guns in this game have too much percieved recoil in a solid prone position as well. I was a SAW gunner in the USMC and have also fired thousands of rounds through an m240G, which although fires a slightly smaller round and possibly has a different firing mechanism...should still fire relatively the same.
When I speak of too much recoil, it seems that even targets within short of 100m can't be hit if you were to fire more than 5 rounds. Yes a tripod is a much more solid platform for sustained fire, however, a prone person with a bipod shouldn't be nearly as unstable as it is in game. Your bipod does hold up the barrel, but also your stance with the machine gun; your non-firing hand is placed on top of the stock and essentially pushing down to compensate any muzzle climb.
I've fired at targets up to 500m with a bipod using the m240g and it wasn't very hard at all to hit several human sized targets. There's a reason why machine guns are feared. Hell, with the SAW small bursts could cause the weapon to jam, that's why we chanted "Die motherf***** die" everytime we squeezed the trigger.
The tactics KarmakazeNZ that you explained are true to a "T", however, I'd like to think that even though you may excel in the machine gun class that there isn't possibly a chance that the recoil is just too high?
Even to put down covering fire for advancing troops where they close in with and destroy the enemy you can't go cyclic for any amount of time. Your bipod grows jets and flies into the sky. That's just not realistic. Recoil is more going back and slight up not straight up like in most video games.
Bipod + prone person = tripod. Not as effective as a T&E mount, but in most of these engagement distances, a bipod should most definitely be efficient enough.
When I speak of too much recoil, it seems that even targets within short of 100m can't be hit if you were to fire more than 5 rounds. Yes a tripod is a much more solid platform for sustained fire, however, a prone person with a bipod shouldn't be nearly as unstable as it is in game. Your bipod does hold up the barrel, but also your stance with the machine gun; your non-firing hand is placed on top of the stock and essentially pushing down to compensate any muzzle climb.
I've fired at targets up to 500m with a bipod using the m240g and it wasn't very hard at all to hit several human sized targets. There's a reason why machine guns are feared. Hell, with the SAW small bursts could cause the weapon to jam, that's why we chanted "Die motherf***** die" everytime we squeezed the trigger.
The tactics KarmakazeNZ that you explained are true to a "T", however, I'd like to think that even though you may excel in the machine gun class that there isn't possibly a chance that the recoil is just too high?
Even to put down covering fire for advancing troops where they close in with and destroy the enemy you can't go cyclic for any amount of time. Your bipod grows jets and flies into the sky. That's just not realistic. Recoil is more going back and slight up not straight up like in most video games.
Bipod + prone person = tripod. Not as effective as a T&E mount, but in most of these engagement distances, a bipod should most definitely be efficient enough.
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That's exactly what I said in the first place. Different tactics are requiered. And I described one of them in my post. And I disagree that it's an issue of "windows" when you get shot, with rifles you can quickly peek out and even fire from the inside of the room through the window so that your rifle doesn't poke out. You can't do that with an MG, you have to mount or you're not gonna hit squat.
I found that on the german side in Pavlov, mounting your MG in that big house which has a huge pillair of smoke in front of it is an awesome tactic to stay hidden, cause you can see people through that smoke if they are in the open, and it's really hard for them to see you, since only your head is poking through the window and the smoke conceals it further.
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Having fired few types of automatic weapons in and outside service, I would say they have it pretty much nailed. 5.56 NATO has diminutive recoil, almost non-existant. MG34, which I admittedly have not fired, fires full sized 7.92mm rifle round which has considerable recoil. I'm not a m-gunner, never was, but moving up from 7.62x39 firing at nearly 1000rpm to PKM firing similar round as the MG34 really caused my groups to spread. Whilst the smaller MG was highly controllable and I could keep all my rounds within half a meter circle at 150m I couldn't manage that with a PKM. In fact I shoot MG34 in game as well as I shoot PKM in real life.
For a game that is sufficient for me.
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Yes man you speak the truth. Everything you said is how it really is when you fire real MGs, down to the chant "die mother fu*ker Die". I got tired of seeing people tell others to fire in 3 round burst. For sustained fire you should fire in 3-5 second long burst, and at a slighly slower cadance.
Employing and using MGs is something that most people just will not understand unless they have any actual military training. Just firing the weapon is not enough to truely understand how to employ the weapon.
There is just some sort of myth out there that people believe that MGs are some uncontrolable inaccurate weapons. But anyone who actually has used MGs in real life can tell you about how capable and devistating they are. I am surgical with one as long as I have it sighted properly.
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Yes, it always seems the way to "balance" a machine gun in any video game is to give it a lot of rounds and horrid accuracy. I think a machine gun should be the paramount in tactical FPS's. To assist in the assault or defense of a side as well as encouraging teamwork to flank and take out said gunner. If a machine gunner is careless in their deployment then by all means, they should die. A machine gunner shouldn't however, be killed simply because of an incorrect execution of the weapon.
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