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Ok treading on a sensitive issue here... The Medic & The Zerker.

2011: Year of the Berserker?

Hehe, hell no.

It's the year of the demolitions guy, with his ability for superior AoE damage and ability to take on the most dangerous mobs -first- and foremost!

Heh, its funny how nowadays I'll join a server to find all level 6 berserkers running around and getting ground up like beef even with the increased damage resistances.

I think even if Berserkers were to get nerfed, the majority of people will still be able to die just as easily as they do now.

After about 5/6 HoE 6 man pub games with Level 6 berserkers getting rolled by wave 8/9, I'm happy to say that its a new "in" class, but most still don't know how to use it properly.

But what this means guys is that non-berserkers will have plenty of meatshields now. :)
 
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I give up.
The zerker is super easy to pick up. The ground is the skill ceiling, not the sky.
We all stand on it.
Everyone can solo a HoE wave in it. It's god-mode.
I can't even join a game without having at least 3 zerkers in it anymore. And all of them never die and kill everything.
It's that easy.

So mr and mrs smiff, what shall we do about this menace?
Clearly, those 5% runspeed won't make a dent in this unstoppable, noob friendly juggernaut.

Or maybe we admit that we're kinda sorta blowing this out of proportion?
Just a little?

Are you really gonna go all "slippery slope" on us? It doesn't always work that way.

Did you look at how the crossbow and the pipes developed lately, and how the chainsaw got handled before that?
There's plenty of evidence that this is exactly how it'll go.
Problems are usually approached from more than 1 angle which can lead to fixes stacking in odd ways and once something is off, it'll take a while to get fixed.
 
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So you're pouring gas into the "zomg nerf zerker, so OP" flames because of 5%?
You do know that once the stone gets rolling, it's not gonna stop at those 5%?

Not sure if you were directing that towards my most-recent comment, but to answer it in the theoretical "yes, that response was directed to you" scenario:

No, in fact I was not fueling any sort of fires at all. In fact, I was dousing it with a rather large tankard of pure water.

I feel that even if zerkers retain their buff, a lot of lvl 6 zerk players will still likely die on HoE mid-round wipes.

My original post in this thread was to counter the points made by Undead Jester, saying that Zerkers are overpowered.

In the past week or so, I've seen the HoE zerk population skyrocket, so as for it being overpopular, yeah. Seems like a trend set.

But from observations alone, I've seen more level 6 zerks get brutally ground up upon attempting to rambo and or even clutch.

I agree therefore with the point made that any class in the hands of a good player will appear overpowered.
E.G: Support Specialists being able to -shred- everything up to the FPs if they know how to play the class, etc.

But the more I play, I see that Ghost has some good points as well regarding Zerkers being finely balanced already pre-patch.
 
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I give up.
The zerker is super easy to pick up. The ground is the skill ceiling, not the sky.
We all stand on it.
Everyone can solo a HoE wave in it. It's god-mode.
I can't even join a game without having at least 3 zerkers in it anymore. And all of them never die and kill everything.
It's that easy.

So mr and mrs smiff, what shall we do about this menace?
Clearly, those 5% runspeed won't make a dent in this unstoppable, noob friendly juggernaut.

Oh be quiet you big drama queen. No one's saying that anyone can solo a HoE wave, but if you know the tactics, the only thing stopping a decent Zerker from soloing a late-game wave is a crap spawn. I've seen Zerkers solo HoE waves 7-10 numerous times since the update.

It's not a huge problem now but I'm willing to bet it'll become one.

I agree therefore with the point made that any class in the hands of a good player will appear overpowered.
E.G: Support Specialists being able to -shred- everything up to the FPs if they know how to play the class, etc.

Yeah no. Support is powerful but lacks any semblance of survivability. I really don't see why Zerker needed a buff to begin with. The only thing wrong was the godawful Chainsaw.
 
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I've seen Zerkers solo
Tried it yourself yet?
Remember:
Playing Zerker is easy.

I really don't see why Zerker needed a buff to begin with. The only thing wrong was the godawful Chainsaw.
No one really wanted zerker buffs beyond the chainsaw.
They just got added and no one objected greatly but then suddenly happy random nerf time began, starting with eliminating the scrake stunlock and ending with effectively halving all the zerker weapons damage and a now semi-useless chainsaw.
It kinda spiraled out of control.
 
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Tried it yourself yet?

No, what does that have to do with anything? The point is it's very possible, and from what I'm seeing (in pubs no less) it doesn't seem terribly difficult.

No one really wanted zerker buffs beyond the chainsaw but then suddenly happy random nerf time began, starting with eliminating the scrake stunlock and ending with effectively halving all the zerker weapons damage.

Scrakes can only be stunned once, yeah. With the Katana. They're stunned the same as they were before with Axe alt-fire. Not sure what you're referring to with the damage being halved - explain?
 
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No, what does that have to do with anything? The point is it's very possible, and from what I'm seeing (in pubs no less) it doesn't seem terribly difficult.
Come on, don't talk about vague "godlike tactics" without knowing how easy or hard they actually are to pull off.
You won't know unless you try yourself.

They're stunned the same as they were before with Axe alt-fire.

Nope.
Gotta hit the head (or the back) now, could stun them with normal bodyhits before.
Makes things a little bit more unpredictable.

Not sure what you're referring to with the damage being halved - explain?

Backstab bug fix.
 
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It was a bug; I don't see how fixing something not even supposed to exist quite qualifies as a nerf, but I'll take your word for it:rolleyes:

The damage output went from 2x, as it used to be from day 1, to 1x. That is less damage. Why do I have to explain this?
But fine, let's not call it a "nerf", let' call it "doing less damage" cause that is totally something different.
 
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The damage output went from 2x, as it used to be from day 1, to 1x. That is less damage. Why do I have to explain this?
But fine, let's not call it a "nerf", let' call it "doing less damage" cause that is totally something different.

The avg damage output was halved, max output is still the same. You just need a little teamwork to get behind the target specimen.

Even with the effectively halved output, zerker still 1 shots everything up to a scrake. Like I said in my earlier post, the only difference in play style is using katana alt swing to 1 hit kill sirens and husks instead of primary and using axe alt swing to melee pounds rather than a combination of both. I use axe alt fire to kill scrakes pre patch so no difference there except I need 5 hits now from the front instead of 3.
 
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Like I said in my earlier post, the only difference in play style is using katana alt swing to 1 hit kill sirens and husks instead of primary and using axe alt swing to melee pounds rather than a combination of both. I use axe alt fire to kill scrakes pre patch so no difference there except I need 5 hits now from the front instead of 3.

Everything you just said is under the assumption that you can get 100% consistent headshots.
That was kind of my point.
The attacks are so weak now that hitting the head is more important than ever.
That kind of means more skill is required, doesn't it?
You can't just bodyshot-bumrush a siren or husk blocking your way with the katana, you need to hit the head now and you need to do it with altfire.
If you can't do that, you have a problem. And a lot of fun with scrakes.

So on the one hand, we have this, which makes the zerker harder to play, and on the other hand we have more movespeed and damage reduction which gives more room for error and makes it a bit easier.
The OP only mentions one side of the trade and makes it look like it was only buffs and buffs again which isn't quite the case.

____________

@Undedd Jester:

You can have those 5% if you want them even though I do not quite understand why the medic needs to be at least as fast as the zerker or how those 2 perks are even supposed to be related to each other in the first place.
Or why they should be.
The only reasoning so far is "because I say so".

It's like demanding AoE attacks for the commando because the demo has them. It makes no sense.
They're 2 different perks. They don't need to fulfill the same roles nor should their stats somehow be linked to each other.
Pointing out that one is better at something than the other doesn't really show anything other than that they're different which isn't surprising when comparing apples to oranges.

So while I wouldn't be particularly opposed to a medic speed buff or a zerker speed nerf, is there any actual reason for it?
You don't need to outrun zerkers to heal them you know. If they know what's good for them, at least.
 
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I'm not in favor of nerfing berserkers because:
  1. Teams of all zerkers/medics would still be common on HoE after said nerf
  2. The better zerkers are still a far cry more capable than the mediocre ones

Three reasons why the KF metagame turned away from turtling, and toward running:
  1. Sharpshooters were NERFED - No more demolishing everything in a 30 m radius
  2. "Suicidal" difficulty upped to "HoE" - More zeds with more health. *Edit* It's just harder now, ok?
  3. Running is less risky than turteling - Turteling is all-or-nothing. Make a mistake? Your team whipes. Mistakes while running with a team are more likely to leave survivors.

Since turtling is harder, people gravitate toward running. This leads people to pick running perks (zerkers/medics). Note that buffs to berserker did not directly contribute to this shift. I submit that in today's HoE setting, ANY perk with some kind of speed bonus would be favorable to one without; That includes the prebeta zerks.

So, why do I keep seeing "nerf zerks!" beside their overwhelming popularity? I think it's because, since beta, the difference between medium/top tier zerkrs has become increasingly difficult to see (http://imgur.com/aiQKF?full). IMO though, the skill difference is still easily noticable. Sure, average zerkers can do some-to-most of what top zerks can, but 95%+ still die in the crucial situations. More margin for error, sure, but dead by wave-end is still dead.

If you want teams to stop stacking up on berserkers, give the average HoE team a decent chance at winning with turtling. Can effective turtling be done? Sure. Is it currently more practical than running? "HELL" no.
 
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Berserker is easy to solo. SOLO. ONLY. Berserkers can solo really easily pre-patch. In mutiplayer, if you dont go rambo, you WILL have trouble every 5 seconds because crawlers are ALWAYS THERE. IN SOLO, crawlers is EASY because you ca just out run them or make them miss you when they jump, then kill it.

However, if you stick with your freaking team, you get hit by gorefasts if you pull out your ranged weapon and try to due with that single crawler, or you get hit by the crawler and prevent yourself from hitting by those gorefasts. If your team is good enough to clear everything, you will be playing with your thrumbs before any scrakes or fleshpounds show up.

Anyway, you are the one who stand at the front line, tank damage when needed. So husks WILL be targeting you. And again, you cannot dodge crawlers and husks that easy like you are soloing. So it only means you are constanly taking damage. So, the resistance buff is for this purpose. However it makes solo or ramboing laughably easy. If you're the last one in the team and able to get away from the hell hole, your job is much easier but normally berserker is the first to die if things really gone wrong. (unless you are not doing your job, i.e. tanking, staying at the front line)

Its the core nature of the perk. Unless you totally change it, you cannot help much about it. Even rolling back the buffs, berserker will still be a really strong soloing/ramboing perk.

Also, now all melee damage is halfed. Basically you need to hit the head for a kill. And for sirens and husk, you need alt-fire head shots instead of primary fire head shot killing. And now scrakes' attack can only be interrupted once (and I dont understand why they call this "stun"...), you must use fire axe alt fire if you dont want to risk any of your health. If you are the only berserker in the team, basically it is hard for you to back stab those scrakes because like I said above, you are the one standing in front of the team. Over 90% of the zeds will target you. It just cost too much time to make the scrake change target and then back stab. Also, when you are holding fire axe, suddenly swrm of clot is threat to you. Simplay everything except your target is now your threat because you cannot swing the fire axe quick enough.

So, berserker who are willing to work WITH his teamates actually take quite some skills to play. Now you actually HAVE TO switch between your weapons. And each switch could cause you to get hit. You are just too close to the zeds. So, I would say the resistance buff is mainly for this reason. And why suddenly people concern so much about ramboing and soloing? Solo isn't hard in the first place. Berserker just being the easiest perk to do so. Like it used to be. And rambos are there since coop-games come out. You can do NOTHING to stop rambos if they want to. When you can solo, you can rambo. If this the how some people to have fun, who cares? And what can you do?

And people who really play berserker (I notice some people only play 1-2 perks and act like they know much about a perk they dont play just by "watching others to play") will notice how much skills is needed after the back stab bug fix. Not only you NEED your axe ALT-FIRE for scrakes, you also need to hit the head. Otherwise you are gonna get hurt. For the old times, you only need to kill tapping mouse 1 to keep the scrakes actually hit you while killing those clots and gorefasts trying to surround you. Now, you need to stun the scrake with head shot and then back off a few steps to see if you teamate already kill the gorefasts around you, THEN you can alt-fire again. And, YES!! Rambo and solo is laughably easy, like I said.
 
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I'm not in favor of nerfing berserkers since:
1. Teams of all zerkers/medics would still be common on HoE after said nerf
2. The better zerkers are still a far cry more capable than the mediocre ones


Three reasons why the KF metagame turned away from turtling, and toward running:
  1. Sharpshooters were NERFED - No more demolishing everything in a 30 m radius
  2. "Suicidal" difficulty upped to "HoE" - More zeds with more health
  3. Running is less risky than turteling - Turteling is all-or-nothing. Mistake? Team whipe. Mistakes while running with a team are more likely to leave survivors.


HoE is just the same as old suicidal for many of the perks. Number and health of the zeds are the same. And I dont see turteling is harder... just that one-shot kill xbower become a demo man, OR two sharpshooters.
 
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I kept my statement vague ("HoE difficulty") because I don't like dealing in theorycraft. I'm not going to analyze every beta change, and assess how it affects a team's ability to turtle.

As for sharpshooters, all that needs to be known can be figured from 30 minutes of hands-on experience with an SS: They can't stop hoards anymore, and they can't stop FP's without good backup.

The progression of the vast majority of my HoE games:

1. Team fails at turtling
2. Team starts running

My post explains that reoccuring phenomenon, and links it to the cry for zerker nerfs.
 
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I kept my statement vague ("HoE difficulty") because I don't like dealing in theorycraft. I'm not going to analyze every beta change, and assess how it affects a team's ability to turtle.

As for sharpshooters, all that needs to be known can be figured from 30 minutes of hands-on experience with an SS: They can't stop hoards anymore, and they can't stop FP's without good backup.

The progression of the vast majority of my HoE games:

1. Team fails at turtling
2. Team starts running

My post explains that reoccuring phenomenon, and links it to the cry for zerker nerfs.

Pretty much. Medic and Berserker are two of the most effective at kiting mobs, so when it comes to a "Half the team is dead! ZOMG RUN!" situation, Medics and Berserkers both start to show their distinct advantages.

Berserker is just getting more attention because it's slightly faster than Medic and can take on FPs solo. If you nerf Zerkers, people are gonna cry about medics again. It's a neverending cycle.
 
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Pretty much. Medic and Berserker are two of the most effective at kiting mobs, so when it comes to a "Half the team is dead! ZOMG RUN!" situation, Medics and Berserkers both start to show their distinct advantages.

Berserker is just getting more attention because it's slightly faster than Medic and can take on FPs solo. If you nerf Zerkers, people are gonna cry about medics again. It's a neverending cycle.

after the last patch, with the bonuses of the bow and katana made perk-based, the medic no longer has the kind of power to properly solo.
 
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