Is it a game design that russians are supposed to lose more ?

is there any question about it?
the germans get to unlock an advanced gun that wasn't even in stalingrad
while the soviets have to work to unlock a drum magazine that was standard issue at the time of stalingrad

SasQuatch said:

I don't know why, I don't know how, but in my gaming hours so far I did not experience the German team as being the dominant team. I'm not sure why some of you have a different experience, but in the (european) servers I frequent (and i mix and match) I've seen many Allied victories on very different maps, maps that are said to be biased toward the Germans.

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I gotta start playing on euro servers then. It must be a different mindset because whenever I play on an american server people just stack the german team and I'm really getting sick of going into the game knowing what team is going to win.

I have seen many Russian victories on the US servers it comes down to this the better team will win the match regardless of maps or weapons.

SasQuatch said:

With the risk of being pummeled to death by some of our forum regulars, I will question that last conclusion.

I sometimes am having a hard time trying to find feedback that isn't jumping a 'Germans are OP' bandwagon. Don't get me wrong; I'm reading most of it and take these comments as seriously as I can, but here is my problem:

I don't know why, I don't know how, but in my gaming hours so far I did not experience the German team as being the dominant team. I'm not sure why some of you have a different experience, but in the (european) servers I frequent (and i mix and match) I've seen many Allied victories on very different maps, maps that are said to be biased toward the Germans.

I just came from a totally Russian dominated Station (2 victories, Germans didn't get past the 2nd objective even). I've seen so many wins on PavlovsHouse, as gimped as it was, where Russians win twice in a row by pushing the Axis team back to their last spawn. On RedOctoberFactory I've seen many wins by the Allied team, just like tonight, capturing up to the last objective, and I could go on and on and on. Even on Commissarshouse, which can be extremely unforgiving for the Russian team in the first 10 minutes, I've witnessed plenty Russian victories on it when the Russian team actually made an intelligent effort. And by that I only mean have a half decent commander, use squad leaders and actually use the T34's. But that map does have issues that are being adressed. As is Pavlovs, which is funny, because [TW]Ohnein preceived it as balanced towards the germans, and I have yet to see a german win on it today!

I've also seen many T34's being evenly matched opponents to P4's on combined arms maps. Seen P4's being oneshotted plenty of times. I've seen T34's that seemed indestructable. I've even taken on 2 P4's by myself alone in a T34 and be successful at it. Granted the T34 has weaker turret armor, but it is not gimped to the point where it's impossible to smack P4's in the balls.

I've seen many Mkb wielding Germans get owned in the face. It is not a super weapon. Seriously. It isn't.

I've taken on many SMG wielding German opponents with a Mosin Nagant rifle and come out victorious, taking second place on the winning Russian team. And not because I killed almost as much Germans as number one, but because I killed smartly, went in to help capturing the objectives when it mattered, picked up a stray smg from a dead body when I knew I was going in close quarters frenzy style and accumulated dozens of team points next to my kills on Germans.

I'm not saying there are no balance issues, there are. I'm not saying the Russians never get pummeled by the Germans. I know it happens, I've been there. But you can see my problem when I am not constantly bulldozed by the German team as a Russian and see very simular things happen for both sides.

The Germans may have the upper hand on paper, but I yet have to see it unbalance our game as a whole.
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Post scriptum
And you know whats funny? I think this bandwagon is exactly what the biased assumptions are about the eastern front: The Germans are the almighty superweapon wielding badass Tiger aces pouring death and destruction on the poorly equipped and unorganized Russian Army, owning them all the way to Stalingrad. Guess what happened next...

Oh PS: Yes that last bit was a joke.

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As an almost exclusive allied player, I have to agree with all of this from experience in game. Some good times :IS2:

about the tanks if this game is meant to be realistic one thing you gotta remember german tank crews at this point of the war where extremly well trained where as the russian tank crews not withstanding the few tank aces russia had like Dmitriy Lavrinenkowhere poorly trained novices that had the bare minimun of training. not saying the t34 shouldnt have AI that will shoot for you though

Not all the German stuff is better. The Russian Sniper is better from what little I get to play of it. But it hardly makes up for Germans getting better Assault Rifles and better Machine Guns. Not when so many of those slots are allowed. Should have kept Elite Assault class.

Only maps that feel balanced cause of this are the one's where Russians are on defense. The maps where Russians have to attack are a damn joke. An the neutral maps favor Germans a bit but maybe if skilled players get on Russians they can win.

SasQuatch said:

I sometimes am having a hard time trying to find feedback that isn't jumping a 'Germans are OP' bandwagon.

I've seen many Mkb wielding Germans get owned in the face. It is not a super weapon. Seriously. It isn't.

I've taken on many SMG wielding German opponents with a Mosin Nagant rifle and come out victorious... And not because I killed almost as much Germans as number one, but because I killed smartly...

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I agree completely in regards to tanks, most weapons, and most maps that nothing is unbeatable for the Soviets. I disagree, however, when you say the Mkb is trivial to fight. When facing the Mkb, you do have to be smart. Smart, very good, and very quick to act and to react.

Nikita said:

I don't think they're the ultimate weapon. They are, however, a weapons system to be respected--as was intended by design--and giving one team six of them does have an effect on gameplay.

In all modesty and truthfulness, I've clubbed Mkb users to death with a Nagant, impaled them from all angles at bayonet point, ..............., thrown F1s cooked Ostfront-style into their faces, gibbed them with PTRS fire, even chased one off the edge of the third floor of Zab's house to their demise (... a particularly hilarious incident). I'll flank them, surprise them mid-reload, or crawl on my belly for fifty yards to outflank the specific assault rifleman picking us off out of spawn on Spartanovka.

I have plenty of tactics to use against them, but none of them are for use against an Mkb head-on anywhere between ten and 120 yards. ... That's the way it should be. It is a fearsome firearm in that situation, unmatched by anything in the Soviet arsenal.

However, that's not the way taking on Axis assault troopers should be, at least not with any frequency. If Mkbs were limited to one per German team, I would have no complaints taking cover from its deadly lead and evaluating my options. I'd even get a thrill, a rush of adrenaline, knowing that I'm taking on the rarest, most lethal Axis small-arms weapon.

It's when I find myself in that situation over and over again per match to the point where I sigh and think: shoot--another one of those!

Without much grumbling, I'll deal with the offending assault trooper and move on--or die trying. But it becomes mundane, a challenge, true, but one that has lost all excitement because fifteen seconds after you've killed him on the far right, he's respawned and he's going far right again to take revenge.

I do enjoy Red Orchestra 2, Mkb and all. .... However, I think its proliferation has affected the gameplay, and that limiting it would improve the game overall. That's all.

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The best way to characterize my feelings when facing the Mkb is to call it a brain drain. You face one running to the first cap, another inside that cap, another while sprinting along the far left on a flanking maneuver, another in the second cap... You're defending the first cap on Grain Elevator, and you've just bandaged the bleeding bullet holes from your last encounter with the Mkb when another comes running towards you.

How will you beat him this time? Relocate to the adjacent window and beat him to the trigger? Hide and wait to bayonet him? Use a precious grenade? Fall back and lie in ambush? Wait until you think he's reloading and rush him?

You have to be brutally, flawlessly cunning. A master at predicting what your enemy will do. You have to be a step ahead of him at every turn, sights already trained when he rounds the corner.

Of course, one might say--that's the key to success in Red Orchestra! Fully agreed. However, using all of your cunning, the best you can hope for is a stalemate. Right now, on the highly local level, your team has to think with far higher tactical prowess than Mkb-wielding opponents in that building, corridor, or street to even fight on equal terms, when in a normal game of Red Orchestra, that kind of adaptability and innovation should at the very least make the firefight a satisfying, close, well-fought one, and in the best of circumstances bring victory.

The Mkb is a force multiplier, and to counter it, your tactics have to become a force multiplier as well.

But after one or two rounds on Apartments or Spartanovka, I'm literally spent with the effort of staving off death. I feel tired, like I've just finished a three-hour midterm (ugh). And then I look at the leaderboard and see the stormtroopers heading the list, and you know what? I don't think it took them anywhere as much effort as it took me to get there.

True, on the macroscopic level, Allies can win just as often as Axis if they play well. On the lowest tactical level, however, the Mkb gives the Axis an advantage. I've seen Germans ignore the capzones to camp, or charge blindly into Soviet fire, handing the Allies the greater match. They can come out of Apartments, Dom Pavlova, or Spartanovka 3-0 with seeming ease. On the smaller level of trenches and hallways, though, that camping and charging takes great effort and more resolution than most have to overcome.

I think it should be looked at map by map rather then focusing on weapon loadouts. I would say grain elevator and apartments were allied favored and the rest axis biased. Even fallen fighters the sewer layout and final spawn areas really reward the axis for pushing.

SasQuatch said:

I've seen many Mkb wielding Germans get owned in the face. It is not a super weapon. Seriously. It isn't.

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You guys on the staff can keep saying that until you're blue in the face but the simple, unarguable, nearly universal experience of the players is that it outclasses pretty much everything in the game.

It is a super weapon. Seriously. It is.

I do admit that some maps may be slightly unbalanced, but I believe the issue is more related to player dispersion. Personally, I think the majority of better players play Axis. This is also true for most WWII shooters. I can't explain why, it's just how its always been.

Compared to beta, the Allies do win more in the release version than prior to it.

Or maybe it just comes down to the better players hating commies more than the average players do.:IS2:

SasQuatch said:

I've seen many Mkb wielding Germans get owned in the face. It is not a super weapon. Seriously. It isn't.

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I strongly disagree. The Mkb may not be completely overpowered in all areas, but it's by far the most versatile weapon. It has far better accuracy than the basic SMGs along with a perfectly adequate ROF and manageable recoil. Most other weapons have clear hard counters: SMGs are largely useless at range and bolt-action rifles are a liability up close. The Mkb is nearly equal to or better than anything at short to medium range and that is where it gets over powered.

SasQuatch said:

The Germans may have the upper hand on paper, but I yet have to see it unbalance our game as a whole.

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3/4 games I've played went to the Axis, and I have to agree with other comments- the maps feel easier from the German side. All North American servers, going by ping at least.

Is this where we post meaningless (but no doubt true) anecdotes? In the few games where I've got to play as Axis I think our team has lost only a handful of times (mostly on pre-release grain elevator). I can predict with about 90% accuracy who will win a map before It starts.

I think the main problem people (read: soviet players) have is that; if it wasn't for the German jackanory guns the game would probably be much more balanced. It just strikes me as odd to take a step away from realism AND balance becuase they wanted 'unlocks' in the game.

SasQuatch said:

I've seen many Mkb wielding Germans get owned in the face. It is not a super weapon. Seriously. It isn't.

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I am a firm believer that soldiers win battles, not guns. But the MKb is silly. It may be modelled on real life (I've no doubt accurately) but It just poops over every soviet gun. The people that think it is average just need to learn to press 6 for a gun that is unbeatable in terms of weapon choice.

All being said I really like your game. I just want a more developed realism mode. (pretty please)

Edit: Also I assume by my ping im playing on the 'even' European servers. Nonsense.

Hi all,

I don't know which game most of you are playing, but it doesn't seem to be the same RO2:HOS like mine.

For me, russian weapons are in most cases balanced, some examples:
some say, mp40 is a DEATHSPRAYING DOOMRAY GUN, and many PPSH shooters are swapping ppsh for mp40 whenever they can...
So its interesting, that for me its vice versa, I'm playing riflemen for 99% of the time, but sometimes, I get an extra mp40 from a dead spawned teammate, but whenever I coma across a PPSH, I usualy drop MP40 and pick up the ppsh.
For me, the ppsh is clearly the better weapon in close quarters, and if used with patience and you take your time, you can even oneshot enemies at over 70-100 meters with it, so I don't see anything overpowered with MP40

Same goes for Machine guns:
I like the soviet DP-28 much more, because it has no obstacle on top of it, its much easier to observe the battlefield with it, and with a better view its clearly a better machine gun for me.

AVT-40 is a complete different story, the weapon is way out of balance in every aspect, its just a SVT-40 with auto-fire function, not more, not less and thats the bad thing, with its 10 round magazine, you can fire 5times a short burst of 2 bullets and you have to reload, so you have to be very, very very skillfull to handle that weapon well. The stoping power is same as MKB42.
Recoil of those weapons? there are WORLDS between them, but accuracy is the same.
For me, AVT40 needs at least a 25 round magazine, or even 30, and then it would be at least somewhat usefull coutnerpart to the MKB42.

oh yes I forgot about rifles, but they are equally good, same for semi-auto rifles, so there is no discussion about those 2 weapon types.

so and now, lets come to maps:
I'm playing 100% only on euro server because I'M european and I LOVE to have a good ping and almost a lagfree game.

On euro-servers, many battles are won by german team, true, but not because of map itself, its because of the teams, in reality, a good organised squad of 8 members can be decisive on ANY side, on any 32,40,64 player maps, in matter of fact, we had many battles against really well organised russian players, and we did play as russians many times and we won as russians too.
BUT I think that many maps are being decided by the playerlimit on the servers, my general observation so far at spartanovka was: if 8vs8 (on a 16player server), germans have almost no chance to win that, but on the other side, when teams are 16vs16 or more, the russians tend to win most of battles. I don't say that it is a rule, but it is only my observation.

oh btw, another observation is, when one team has a good playing commander, and the other team has none, then the team with that good commander wins most of the time, I think many players underestimate artillery and air recon missions.

Nikita said:

But after one or two rounds on Apartments or Spartanovka, I'm literally spent with the effort of staving off death. I feel tired, like I've just finished a three-hour midterm (ugh). And then I look at the leaderboard and see the stormtroopers heading the list, and you know what? I don't think it took them anywhere as much effort as it took me to get there.

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Exactly! Not Mkb related, but lockdown also exhausts me. I only won Commissar's House once on the Russian team before the patch that fixed it. I think I've never felt that tired after playing a videogame, as if I was that one soldier I was controlling. While such an exhausting victory might add a lot to immersion, making you feel like you have walked through hell, at the same time it annuls all the immersion it gives and brings only annoyance, because lockdown is a much bigger enemy than the enemy team itself. Few are the occasions where the Germans lose because of it, while it's always the main cause of defeat for the Russians in maps where they attack.

SasQuatch said:

With the risk of being pummeled to death by some of our forum regulars, I will question that last conclusion.

I sometimes am having a hard time trying to find feedback that isn't jumping a 'Germans are OP' bandwagon. Don't get me wrong; I'm reading most of it and take these comments as seriously as I can, but here is my problem:

I don't know why, I don't know how, but in my gaming hours so far I did not experience the German team as being the dominant team. I'm not sure why some of you have a different experience, but in the (european) servers I frequent (and i mix and match) I've seen many Allied victories on very different maps, maps that are said to be biased toward the Germans.

I just came from a totally Russian dominated Station (2 victories, Germans didn't get past the 2nd objective even). I've seen so many wins on PavlovsHouse, as gimped as it was, where Russians win twice in a row by pushing the Axis team back to their last spawn. On RedOctoberFactory I've seen many wins by the Allied team, just like tonight, capturing up to the last objective, and I could go on and on and on. Even on Commissarshouse, which can be extremely unforgiving for the Russian team in the first 10 minutes, I've witnessed plenty Russian victories on it when the Russian team actually made an intelligent effort. And by that I only mean have a half decent commander, use squad leaders and actually use the T34's. But that map does have issues that are being adressed. As is Pavlovs, which is funny, because [TW]Ohnein preceived it as balanced towards the germans, and I have yet to see a german win on it today!

I've also seen many T34's being evenly matched opponents to P4's on combined arms maps. Seen P4's being oneshotted plenty of times. I've seen T34's that seemed indestructable. I've even taken on 2 P4's by myself alone in a T34 and be successful at it. Granted the T34 has weaker turret armor, but it is not gimped to the point where it's impossible to smack P4's in the balls.

I've seen many Mkb wielding Germans get owned in the face. It is not a super weapon. Seriously. It isn't.

I've taken on many SMG wielding German opponents with a Mosin Nagant rifle and come out victorious, taking second place on the winning Russian team. And not because I killed almost as much Germans as number one, but because I killed smartly, went in to help capturing the objectives when it mattered, picked up a stray smg from a dead body when I knew I was going in close quarters frenzy style and accumulated dozens of team points next to my kills on Germans.

I'm not saying there are no balance issues, there are. I'm not saying the Russians never get pummeled by the Germans. I know it happens, I've been there. But you can see my problem when I am not constantly bulldozed by the German team as a Russian and see very simular things happen for both sides.

The Germans may have the upper hand on paper, but I yet have to see it unbalance our game as a whole.
------------------
Post scriptum
And you know whats funny? I think this bandwagon is exactly what the biased assumptions are about the eastern front: The Germans are the almighty superweapon wielding badass Tiger aces pouring death and destruction on the poorly equipped and unorganized Russian Army, owning them all the way to Stalingrad. Guess what happened next...

Oh PS: Yes that last bit was a joke.

Click to expand...

Nice comment. Thanks for feed back


As to my personal experience, yes, I have been on a Russian team that owns the Germans and I kill most MP40s and MKBs I see with my PPSH (which I often get 200m kills with ).

That said, I've kept track of my loss wins (once I heard stats were bugged).

10 wins. 26 losses. I always play the Soviets. Im always squad leader and always cap objectives/give new players advice and direction/ask Germans to balance teams because they are OFTEN 1-2 people up/have a great kill:death.

I do feel the main reason for the German victories is a community bias. A recent poll on the forum showed that Germans were MUCH more popular among forum voters. That said, I believe the MP40 to be a sligthly more useful weapon than the PPSH and the MKB is even better. That just means TW did a fantastic job with making the weapons act like their real life counterparts. That said, the RL counterpart of PPSH had a drum mag and was VERY plentiful. I'd love to see this reflected in game:

PPSH default Drum mag. Unlock option to use box mags (which I prefer)
Slightly less assault roles on German side to reflect lack of MP40s in Stalingrad
Level 2 Assault unlocks captured PPSH to further model lack of MP40s.
Prototype weapons (AVT, MKB) Elite rifleman only and NOT the default selection.


Sorry for double posting these suggestions, but I feel they are both balancing and historical. Thank you

I'd love servers in North America like the one Sasquatch plays on in Europe.

Perhaps Wehrmacht fanboyism isn't as prevalent in Europe as in North America (which would make sense since Europe actually experienced them), so people don't flock to them.

With 41 hours under my belt almost all of it with the Russians, I would have to say the game is pretty well balanced. My only objection would be the number of MKBs present as I would like to limit it to say either just the cmdr or a couple of elite slots. Spectated half a game of Commissar's house the other day waiting for a slot to open, so all I did was watch the kill list. Half the kills on a 64 players server were MKB; with all the riflemen, mgers, smgs, tankers present, not to mention the Russian side as well, 50% of all kills went to this one weapon.

As for map balance, playing 98% of the time Russian, I have a 75% win rate and when I teamup with my friend we have lost a total of maybe 3 matches out of 30. A lot of the balance seems to stem from better players (read: more experienced players not necessarily better talentwise) pluging the german side wanting to get their goodies. It does seem that the Russians generally have to work harder for their wins, but that is after all why I choose them. If you play to your strengths, the Russians have as a great a chance of winning as the Germans.

With the PPSH get up close and personal with the enemy, get in his face, make your greater RoF count and practice firing from the hip while moving.

Russian MG: set your sights to 50 m, most of your kills will be <100m on most maps. Aim for the lower torso and fire short bursts allowing the climb to compensate for whatever range over 50 the enemy may be at. Practice fast clicking to get off one shots once you have accustomed to the range setting. The Russian MG might not have an alternate button to singlefire, but you can do it yourself easily enough and the bullet damage is far higher than the mg34. I once came around the corner at an employed mg34 pumping me with lead and I still had enough time to sight my sniper rifle and kill him at 20m before my screen went black. Against the Russian MG, I would have been toast before I knew what hit me. Remember to limit your angle of exposure with the MG, try to cover one area well instead of setting in a position where you can fire at many places but cover nothing well. Had 28 kills and no deaths in 5 minutes of action on Spartanovka the other day by covering the approach to the final cap with a usable field of fire of not more than 30 degrees.

Use the AVT as a cross between a rifle and the MG. Pick your target and fire a short burst and you will learn to love it. Small mag capacity limits its usefulness CQ, but it has the firepower to do some damage provided you have team support to cover you as you reload often.

As for Sniper and Cmdr; for the love of peaches and all fruit fuzzy; do NOT choose this slot unless you know what you are doing. Coming from RO and DH where I was always the first one into servers where I could choose whatever class I wanted to always being midpack for loading in RO2 and almost always being stuck with the rifle/smg, it is amazing how often a total noob gets these classes. The most experienced players joining Russia seem to avoid these slots probably for fear of feeling responsible for a loss, the inexperienced players know better than to pick these, which means more often than not, a total noob grabs these positions. Of course this leaves the quandry that is similar to the job hunting experience of many. A job requires applicants to have experience, but you can't get experience because no one will hire you. How do you go from Cmdrnoob to good without practice? My recommendation is that if you know you have some learning to do with the Cmdr/Sniper roles is to not pick it off the start. If the slot becomes available part way through a battle, that would be the time to jump in. Although any player can set the tone of battle in the first couple of minutes, it's the Cmdr that can pave the way to victory in the first moments of the game with good arty and smoke placement.

Sorry for the longwinded post but as someone with over 1400 hours in RO and DH I feel rather strongly that this game achieve its potential. There were plenty of maps in RO/DH that were decidedly unbalanced, but that's part of what made them fun. I always picked the side that had the worst of it which makes victory that much more sweet.

Map wise I started seeing allot more Russian winz, its like the players are getting smarter and now you often get the Rus team capping all objs on Apartaments, something I could only dream of at the first days of release. Personally tho, im getting mowed down in CQB allot more often by hipfiring MKB trolls.

It wouldnt be a problem if we had a DDE unlocked PPSH drums or no DDE MKBs at all. But as it is now many Germans get their best wep from day 1 while Ruskies have to grind with that broken unlock sys to make the PPSH the CQB monstar it was supposed to be. And aye, AVT is a joke..

Edit: Havent seen Russians win Oktober ONCE since release..

Imo this game is realistic and being realistic it would be unbalanced if the teams had the same amount of people.

Germany had about 5mil casualties during ww2, while russia had about 10 mil casualties, even though germany fought two fronts.

Based on these stats i would have to say since this game is very realistic weapon wise that germans should win more because they do have better weapons.

The answer to the Germans ROLFstomping is down to 2 things:
1) LOCKDOWN.
I support Lockdown as it saves everyone time but I have never had a close match that I lost as Germans due to lockdown, the only time when it clicks in is when the team is being morons. As a Russian is happens so many times, Red Oktober being worse as you team fights like lions only to be "locked out". I'm too lazy to do this but someone needs to check the lock down time for each map and I am betting the Germans get much of it than the Russians...

2) Spawning.
Germans on most maps tend to spawn way closer to to the objective than the Russians, allowing them to keep up the pressure much more than the Russians.