Bullet travel in CQC battle

Krator said:

Actin, you are right. I just find aiming at thin air each time I want to hit somebody across the room counterintuitive and anti-immersive. This "long bullet travel time" is ruining my RO experience since 2005.

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Then I'm sure you will be shocked and embarrassed to find that there is no bullet travel time when shooting across the room, because the game uses hitscan, which is instantaneous.

Krator said:

VariousNames - I think you are very far from truth. You can dodge bullets most of the time. Sprint, turn, sprint, turn, stop, sprint. With luck it is possible to hit, but it's just impossible to always predict the right point of aim.

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Would you like to test that theory?

Actin said:

Also +1 to counter the -1's Unus offa

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Thank you good sir! I have a feeling these cowards lurking in the shadows were spawned in the "Tank turret & gun control" thread, where we also had a mysterious 10 man vote in less than 10 min.

Bullet travel time at 1m is 100ms because of lag. i've written it numerous time. I thought that it is simple enough to understand... Hitscan or not, it doesn't make any difference at point blank or across the room range.
And yes, I would love to see you having 60%+ accuracy against a randomly strafing character.
BTW any "test" against me strafing would have no point, because in game you don't have unlimited time to aim and you have VERY limited shot opportuinities. But I;m sure anyways that I can make you miss most of your shots with random strafing and have some success with bayo, all thanks to 100 ping.
Without 100ping I think I would get shot much much more often during online gaming against all kinds of players.

You're implying I have some problems with this game. I don't. I would love to aim realistically, not shoot at thin air. Is it that hard to understand? All you know about me is what I've written. All I know about you is what you've written. So please stop implying that I have some problems with this game. i just don't like lag. You may like it. You can even suffer lag in real life. I really don't care. What I care about is: the lag is ruining my gaming experience. It reminds me all the time that every time I don something, I have to wait 100ms.

How many of you people are ENJOYING that each time you shoot, you have to wait 100+ms for your shot to actually happen? How many of you are enjoying taking prediction each time you're trying to shoot somebody?
I want to aim AT my enemy. Shoot him, not thin air. I want to make predictions based on realistic values (running speed and distance), not worrying about lag.

Krator said:

Bullet travel time at 1m is 100ms because of lag. i've written it numerous time. I thought that it is simple enough to understand...
And yes, I would love to see you having 60%+ accuracy against a randomly strafing character.

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Well, I volunteer to try. Set a date.

Krator said:

You're implying I have some problems with this game. I don't. I would love to aim realistically, not shoot at thin air. Is it that hard to understand? All you know about me is what I've written. All I know about you is what you've written. So please stop implying that I have some problems with this game. i just don't like lag. You may like it. You can even suffer lag in real life. I really don't care. What I care about is: the lag is ruining my gaming experience. It reminds me all the time that every time I don something, I have to wait 100ms.
You may like it. I don't. You may think it doesn't make aiming harder. I do, and so does every player that had a chance to shoot kar98k on LAN server with basically around 0 ping and online with 100 ping.

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You have to wait 100ms because of the unfortunate reality of networking technology. It's not instantaneous. Unfortunately, Tripwire cannot break the laws of physics in order to give you your preferred gaming environment.
The best they can do for you is give you lag compensation, which comes with its own slew of problems and has already been suggested and essentially rejected by the developers and the community. If you want to revive that debate and bring up that talking point, that's fine, have at it, but it's not something that's so cut and dry as "make the latency go away," because you're on a network and everything is going to have to be calculated posthomously and you may get some fun glitches and inaccuracies.
And the fact of the matter is, as we've already pointed out, it's not realistic at point blank (e.g. 10-90 feet) to expect your hits to strike your target instantaneously. Part of the reason shooting games have been so classically unopposed to using hitscan techniques, like RO does, is that the network latency is already so much greater than the travel time delay. So if there was lag comp, you might have to calculate travel time at short distances to compensate for the unrealistic instantaneous travel times of the shots.

All problems of "lag compensation" are present in some other game made with whole different mindset.
And lag compensation will always fail when you try to compensate for 300, 400 or 500ms. It's just too long. 500ms is 3 times longer than human reaction time. Now that would be really annoying to die 500ms (or even 1s considering all kinds of lag shooter-> server-> you) after you got behind cover, wouldn't it? But nobody has tried to make a lag-compensating system, that would work only up to 100 or so ms. I trust in TWI. I know they are talented and they learn from other's mistakes. So why should I assume that they are not capable of doing such system right?

And at 90 feet, which is less than 10m (EDIT: I was tired and yes, this is a stupid mistake, I thought about 30, nevermind...), bullet from rifle travels less than 1/80 of a second, that is around 12ms (with 8mm mauser around 13ms). It takes 8 times less to cover that distance IRL than with 100 ping and hit-scan. In 12ms your target can move a few centimeters. With 8 times more time he can move out of the way of the bullet. 8 times more is a LOT more.
You can ignore 12ms, most of us probably couldn't tell the difference between 0 and 12ms lag. But the difference
between 12ms and 100+ms is very big.



Date? Tuesday? Monday? 17 o'clock, GMT +1, choose some server where your ping will be in 100-150 range and lets see, how you can hit reliably more than 60% of the time. There's only one rule -you can only shoot 1s after I start moving.
EDIT: one more rule: you keep your firing rate at reasonably high level, because I'm pretty sure that in game you don't have unlimited aiming time.

Hitscan at 10m with lag compensation = you have to take 10cm (0,012x8) less lead (assuming your target sprints at 8m/s) than in real life. So much, right?
100ms lag at 10m with hitscan = you have to take 70cm more lead than in real life. It's 2,5 "side of the body" length. That makes a huge impact on your point of aim.

So basically: you aim at 10m at russian sprinting perpendicular to the line of fire. IRL you aim at his center mass and you hit area around his spine (he moves 10cm). With hitscan and lag compensation you aim center mass, you hit center mass (so the effect in game is the same as in real life). With standard RO lag you hit 65cm behind him (IRL you hit, in game you miss badly).


I know that we can all live with 100ms lag, and that no lag compensation is better for competition etc. But do you really think that aiming at thin air each time you shoot is better for immersion?
I used to be really good with kar98k. Now I'm a tanker (mostly Darkest Hour tanker, cause DH tank combat is IMO much better). I have no problems with playing this game succesfully. I just don't like the way it's played.

Krator said:

And at 90 feet, which is less than 10m

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I'm sorry? 90 feet is less than 10 meters?

I see a math problem Krator, err wait I see quite a lot actually..

Guys, I'm sorry. I was just tired. I realise that 90 feet is around 27 meters.

Unus Offa, Unus Nex, VariousNames - do you really had to write that post? I did a stupid mistake. I did rest of the math OK. You could have just corrected me, not making fun in such way. You didn't respond to the rest of the post. What's next? I thought we were discussing some ROHOS features, not acting like kids.

And hitscan at 90 feet is still less game-breaking than 100ms of lag, since bullet travels up to what, 33ms? And lag is 3 times this. And most of the time people don't sprint perpendicular to your line of fire - and in such case 33ms doesn't change the point of that aim much, but 100ms does.

Tell me guys, why do you like lag so much? What's so fun at having to aim in totally unrealistic way, like with goddamn crossbow. We could have a polite debate about game features, because it's the game we're talking about, not me or you. Too bad you couldn't resist the urge to just make fun of my mistake in an impolite way, instead of actually using some arguments. I would like to read some reasonable explanation, why lag is better for gameplay. "It can't be done well" is not an argument BTW, cause it's just your opinion not based on facts.

I know there will be no lag compensation in this game. This discussion could have ended with 1 post on my side and single responses with good arguments.

I think this is a good place to end this discussion. I should have realised Various, what you were really interested in.
"Then I'm sure you will be shocked and embarrassed to find that there is no bullet travel time when shooting across the room, because the game uses hitscan, which is instantaneous." - this post actually was a good indicator of what I should expect. No arguments, just attacks (because it's always easier to act you didn't understood what was my point in the 1st place). And you did it again and again - I write about bullet travel across room at 10m, you just write that I made a mistake with those 90 feet. Was that mistake really important for my "across the room" example? Not at all. But you just ignored the rest. Nitpicking at its finest.

I'll enjoy this game anyways.

Krator said:

How many of you people are ENJOYING that each time you shoot, you have to wait 100+ms for your shot to actually happen? How many of you are enjoying taking prediction each time you're trying to shoot somebody?
I want to aim AT my enemy. Shoot him, not thin air. I want to make predictions based on realistic values (running speed and distance), not worrying about lag.

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Since 90% of the ppl here have no issues whatsoever with the close travel time, I guess you are overreacting.

Lag is there and it will stay there. If you can't fight it (which in essence is next to impossible) adapt to it.

I have adapted. Long time ago. I have no problem with being succesfull in this game. I can hit people reliably using hip-shooting technique etc. I get lots of kills when I'm in good mood. I just fire at thin air with my kar98k and I hit people. But it just doesn't seem right. I just don't feel like I'm shooting high-velocity rifle. More like Star Wars type "blaster" or Q3 "plasma gun" - it takes 100ms to reach target at 10m. It's similiar to shooting ASG pistol - 100m/s.
I understand that for many people "gaming competition" and "being succesfull in game" is more important than fun, immersion and realism.
I just hoped (being naive) for a game, that will have advantages of both single and multi-player shooters of the past. That will combine non-linear combat, human intelligence of opponents and minimal impact of lag on the way I play.
The key phrase is "realistic aiming". I really enjoyed RO aiming system. All features, like supporting weapon on all kinds of surfaces, made it a really nice experience. The only thing it lacked was realistic bullet travel times at short range (at 300m those additional 60-70ms didn't make much difference).
So you may say that I'm overreacting, but from my perspective, one of the most imortant downsides of RO1 will be back. To me it was one of the keys to much more realistic gamepley and much better "combat experience".

And I think RO:HOS will be great FPS shooter for "competitive" gamers. Just not that much fun (for me) as I thought.

Krator said:

I have adapted. Long time ago. I have no problem with being succesfull in this game. I can hit people reliably using hip-shooting technique etc. I get lots of kills when I'm in good mood. I just fire at thin air with my kar98k and I hit people. But it just doesn't seem right. I just don't feel like I'm shooting high-velocity rifle. More like Star Wars type "blaster" or Q3 "plasma gun" - it takes 100ms to reach target at 10m. It's similiar to shooting ASG pistol - 100m/s.
I understand that for many people "gaming competition" and "being succesfull in game" is more important than fun, immersion and realism.
I just hoped (being naive) for a game, that will have advantages of both single and multi-player shooters of the past. That will combine non-linear combat, human intelligence of opponents and minimal impact of lag on the way I play.
The key phrase is "realistic aiming". I really enjoyed RO aiming system. All features, like supporting weapon on all kinds of surfaces, made it a really nice experience. The only thing it lacked was realistic bullet travel times at short range (at 300m those additional 60-70ms didn't make much difference).
So you may say that I'm overreacting, but from my perspective, one of the most imortant downsides of RO1 will be back. To me it was one of the keys to much more realistic gamepley and much better "combat experience".

And I think RO:HOS will be great FPS shooter for "competitive" gamers. Just not that much fun (for me) as I thought.

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I think you misinterpreted my post a little.

I am not saying 'You get kills and you are succesful, so you can't comment on the lag'. This has absolutly nothing to do with that. I am saying that not many people have expressed this same concern as yours. Therefore I doupted the prevalence of this issue. I for one am not able to detect anything like what you said. Not much of proof, but thats the reason why I suggested you may be overreacting to a minor issue.

Also I don't know how much use the 'Lag must go away' discussion has. It cannot and wil not go away soon... or you might have a brilliant solution, but then I guess you would have already mentioned that.

So you are very welcome to comment, but you are one of the only people having issues with it. Also there is no solution imho so not much use in my eyes.

There's 1 simple solution. With "median" ping at around 80 on the server (most of the players have ping around that range) server would make all hitboxes "lag" 60ms (those 20ms to compensate for hitscan) behind the visual representation of characters. 'Since nearly nobody has less ping than 60-70, I think that this solution to the problem wouldn't hurt anyone in a serious way.
There are also advanced lag-compensating systems that store player movement during f.e. last 300ms and if your ping is 100, server just checks if you've hit your enemies position from 100ms ago. This is probably much more resource-heavy.
I have never coded anything. But I know solutions exist. I don't understand why so many people think they don't. Some of those solutions are flawed, like in BC2, but not because it's impossible to do it right. They just try too hard and use some solutions beyond their limits. If you try to compensate for 500ms like many console games do, the effect is players getting teleported 3-4 meters back, getting killed while being behind solid cover etc. etc. With only 100ms lag compensation those problems would be close to nonexistent.

And I don't believe you don't feel there's something wrong with aiming 70cm in front of your enemy at point blank. It's awkward. have you ever tried doing some melee fighting in RO with 120ms of lag? You have to stab at thin air all the time. Try it. You can't see those bullets fly slow, but you can see with your own eyes, how bad it looks when you can see your rifle stab somebody (who's strafing and dodging) for no effect, because you're supposed to aim "in front" of him.
People got used to lag, so they don;t complain. Does it mean the lag is good? Does it mean the lag doesn't have a huge impact on gameplay and immersion? People just don;t think about it, becasue there's no point.
It could have been fixed in RO2. But it won't be. I bet without lag problems kar98k would be MUCH more effective in RO. Have you ever tried playing Quake 2 on LAN and kill people with railgun? Now try to kill them with that slow firing weapon with 100-120ms lag. Completely different experience. It suddenly feels like some kind of "rocket launcher", not deadly insta-hit weapon. Same with kar98k. At 400m it feels like a rifle. At 10m it feels like ASG pistol.

Mormegil said:

Yoshiro on IRC just confirmed, it's hitscan up close in ROOST.

So no flight time. Dunno what the cut off is. I vaguely recall 100 feet.

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does that mean that 2 people can still shoot eachother at the same time and kill eachother?

Sorry Krator, lag compensation in any form is a no-no.

Having to lead up a tiny bit on close enemies is a small price to pay for not being killed by the server because Laggy Bro #3 didn't get the visual info that you were behind cover already.

Reise said:

Sorry Krator, lag compensation in any form is a no-no.

Having to lead up a tiny bit on close enemies is a small price to pay for not being killed by the server because Laggy Bro #3 didn't get the visual info that you were behind cover already.

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What this man said. The alternative is getting shot whilst standing behind a wall because the other guy doesn't see you as being behind that wall.

Guys, why don't you just read my posts?
Laggy bro would miss, because lag comp would work up to 100ms or so.
100ms is so fast you wouldn't even notice, that you died "behind" cover. It's 1/10th of a second. We're not talking about 400-500ms. Just 100.
Is it that hard to just read and comprehend?

And basically RO:HOS shouldn't feature "instant death" after shot anyways, because that's just unrealistic. Don't really know, why it does it anyways. Only headshots should mean instant incapacitation/death.


And yes, I think lag comepnsation working with more than 100-150ms is just plain wrong and makes game less fun. But I don;t care for people who have so high ping, because... I have lower ping even on american servers (I'm from central europe).

BTW this topic has to die natural death, because it has already been decided in favor of less realism, more "competition". More fun to some, less fun to others.

Krator, please stop arguing about this.

TWI already responded to you a couple of months ago saying that it'll never happen. STOP WHINING ABOUT IT!


Could a mod please lock this thread?

I know we were beating a dead horse in this topic from the start.
And yes, mods should just lock this thread up. Nothing new to see in here.

BTW LemoN, if only their response had some really convincing arguments. But they just said "I don't want to die 1s after getting behind cover" when I was talking about 100-150ms.

Thread should.be "lag in cqc" not bullet travel