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Map Type Suggestion

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Jinef

Member
May 15, 2006
13
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#1
Hello Everyone.

I am a dedicated Operation Flashpoint player who has been persusaded to get Red Orchestra. I am quite impressed at the fluidity of the infantry engagments and the possibilities for some very nice gameplay.

However, as with most FPS games RO is dominated by rambos and online gameplay is really quite dire, across the board.

The obvious problem is the people who play it, however I have a bunch of people who are used to using teamwork and I can easily get more by the looks of your "tactics" section in this forum.

The secondary problem is level design, it is currently very ... 'gamey' and not very inducive of teamwork at all. I can think of some ways to make it better but I really have no idea if they could be implemented easily or by using an SDK or such.

Here is an example scenario.

Location: Basovka Train Station

Allied Setup:

Your platoon has been ordered to defend the Basovka train station. You expect to be attacked by the enemy in force.

Rifle Platoon:
> 4x Rifle Squads
> 1x MG Team

Rifle Squad: SL/TL/5xRifle/MG
MG Team: TL/2xMG

Support: 4x Artillery Strikes

Man Count: 35
Objective: Defen Basovka Train Station!


Axis Setup:

Your company has been ordered to attack the Basovka train station. You expect the objective to be defended by an isolated infantry platoon.

Rifle Company:
> 3x Rifle Platoons

Rifle Platoon:
> 3x Rifle Squads

Rifle Squad: SL/TL/5xRifle/MG

Man Count: 72
Objective: Attack Basovka Train Station!

So basically the Axis are attacking with greater numbers against a defended position. So it evens out. The Allies also have limited artillery support, for those tough situations.

Now for the grouping and respawn. The focus is to make 1 or 2 complete infantry sections per side and do a respawn when 1 full section is fully depleted.

E.G. An Axis squad of 8 attacks 2 Allied squads of 16, they fire and move and kill some of the allied guys but they all fall victim to one well placed grenade. The whole Axis squad respawns on the other side of the map and begin their attack again. The allied squads work the same way, but they have much less distance to get back into their defending positions.

In order for the Axis to be successful they need to dip duck dodge and dive while suppressing the enemy simultaneously ...

In order for the Allies to be successful they need to assign fire sectors, communicate and stay alert.

Win Conditions: If the Allied platoon is killed (No more reinforcements) the Axis can consider Basovka to be theirs. Vice versa for the allies. No silly flags neccessary.

The gameplay is designed to encourage cohesion/suppressive fires and movement/leadership/communication.

Now, the crux, is this actually possible?
 
#2
You can easily create maps that have no flags to capture; these will only end when one team runs out of men. The respawning aspect would take a mutator but should be possible.

Removing the objectives wouldn't help at all with the "rambo" aspect, however. Actually I think it'd tend to work in the OTHER direction. People "rambo" because A. it WORKS, and B. they aren't that afraid of dying. That wouldn't go away.
 
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#4
Well people would be more afraid to die when this group respawn is on, because if they say "**** it I am running forward" and get shot, they may have 3-6 minutes to wait for their squad to respawn, maybe even more if their squad is in defence.

As for ramboing working .... this is a problem in the game design to some extent, but mainly it is due to sparse player concentration and lack of leadership.

i.e. If you decided to assault a point on your own, and you had 7 rifleman and a MG covering your approach, how far would you get?

Red Orchestra is the perfect base for some good tactics. The setup is almost identical to British army tactics revolving around the SLRs/GPMG.

Imagine you are a Squad Leader controlling a section firing position.

You would set up everyone, spaced out, with directions to watch. You could then do target indication using the clock system:

2 ENEMY, 2 O'CLOCK, FIRE!

Or location/axis system:

2 ENEMY, RIGHT OF AXIS, FIRE!

Very cool shiznits.


So, I need to edit a version of basovka and take flags out, and define reinforcement numbers, change role types etc?
 
Upvote 0
#5
Jinef said:
Hello Everyone.

I am a dedicated Operation Flashpoint player who has been persusaded to get Red Orchestra. I am quite impressed at the fluidity of the infantry engagments and the possibilities for some very nice gameplay.

However, as with most FPS games RO is dominated by rambos and online gameplay is really quite dire, across the board.

The obvious problem is the people who play it, however I have a bunch of people who are used to using teamwork and I can easily get more by the looks of your "tactics" section in this forum.

The secondary problem is level design, it is currently very ... 'gamey' and not very inducive of teamwork at all. I can think of some ways to make it better but I really have no idea if they could be implemented easily or by using an SDK or such.

Here is an example scenario.

Location: Basovka Train Station

Allied Setup:

Your platoon has been ordered to defend the Basovka train station. You expect to be attacked by the enemy in force.

Rifle Platoon:
> 4x Rifle Squads
> 1x MG Team

Rifle Squad: SL/TL/5xRifle/MG
MG Team: TL/2xMG

Support: 4x Artillery Strikes

Man Count: 35
Objective: Defen Basovka Train Station!


Axis Setup:

Your company has been ordered to attack the Basovka train station. You expect the objective to be defended by an isolated infantry platoon.

Rifle Company:
> 3x Rifle Platoons

Rifle Platoon:
> 3x Rifle Squads

Rifle Squad: SL/TL/5xRifle/MG

Man Count: 72
Objective: Attack Basovka Train Station!

So basically the Axis are attacking with greater numbers against a defended position. So it evens out. The Allies also have limited artillery support, for those tough situations.

Now for the grouping and respawn. The focus is to make 1 or 2 complete infantry sections per side and do a respawn when 1 full section is fully depleted.

E.G. An Axis squad of 8 attacks 2 Allied squads of 16, they fire and move and kill some of the allied guys but they all fall victim to one well placed grenade. The whole Axis squad respawns on the other side of the map and begin their attack again. The allied squads work the same way, but they have much less distance to get back into their defending positions.

In order for the Axis to be successful they need to dip duck dodge and dive while suppressing the enemy simultaneously ...

In order for the Allies to be successful they need to assign fire sectors, communicate and stay alert.

Win Conditions: If the Allied platoon is killed (No more reinforcements) the Axis can consider Basovka to be theirs. Vice versa for the allies. No silly flags neccessary.

The gameplay is designed to encourage cohesion/suppressive fires and movement/leadership/communication.

Now, the crux, is this actually possible?
Click to expand...

This might work with just a couple mutators. I'd love to see this type of realism being used in-game whenever I play.

BUT, you will still have rambos, you will still have people that don't act like they would in real life, so it will end up just like what you were trying to get rid of in the first place.

I'd suggest (if you end up making this or not) starting up a realism league with some of the realism clans, not necessarily matches, but just games where EVERYONE will be there to play realistically.


EDIT: Did you mean by"Man count: 72" that there would be 72 people on the german side, or that the team would only spawn a total of 72 times? It would be good to have more players, but that's a UE limitation.
 
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Upvote 0
#7
OK, the first version is done. Still tweaking it a little bit.

The basic parametres I have now:

Round Length - 1 hour.
1 Objective - Basovka Train Station
Respawn Delay - 2 mins
Respawn Limit Axis - 72
Respawn Limit Allies - 34

Russians have 4 arty strikes available ... (I just remembered I need to add a radio and trigger, lol).

At any one time you can have 2 group leaders, 2 machine gunners and unlimited rifleman on the map.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
#8
Jinef said:
You would set up everyone, spaced out, with directions to watch. You could then do target indication using the clock system:

2 ENEMY, 2 O'CLOCK, FIRE!

Or location/axis system:

2 ENEMY, RIGHT OF AXIS, FIRE!
Click to expand...

People need to use compass directions, which are the same for all teamates regardless of their position.
Using clock directions is relative only to the person saying it....2 O'CLOCK to you could be any hour to me and I'd first have to figure out where you were when you said it and where I am from you and translate that to what clock positoin that would be to me.
Right and Left is the same. Most of the time left to right moving to an objective is standard to the players now, but my right might still be different to your right depending on which direction you are facing.
The compass never lies....use the compass....love the compass.... LOL
 
Upvote 0
#9
Interesting approach to gameplay. However, how does one get people to want to work together in the assigned squads other than simply spawning with them? What's to make them want to follow their leader's orders and keep together? As it stands now, the only class that directly listens to orders is the machine gunner. Generally, they listen to the squad leaders. Otherwise, you kinda just direct team mates in the direction of the enemy and they figure it out themselves while the sniper is screwing around picking off totally irrelevant targets.
 
Upvote 0
#10
Slyder, you are quite correct when making contact reports to a friendly force spread over a wide area, compass points are better. However for a small military unit, section/squad level, they still use axis and the clock system, it is far easier as unit cohesion is much higher than most games.

In our OFP multiplayer games we often have people located over 2kms away in a different platoon shouting stuff like "There's enemy by the tree to the left!" which is really quite useless.

Edit - Removed babble that was completely offtopic.

Good point slyder!
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
#11
Kipper said:
Interesting approach to gameplay. However, how does one get people to want to work together in the assigned squads other than simply spawning with them? What's to make them want to follow their leader's orders and keep together?
Click to expand...

Ok, the entire basis of this approach is the testament to realism red orchestra fans often bang on aboot. In reality rambos do not exist, if they do exist it is most often for a short amount of time. Period.

Obviously you cannot simulate death in a computer game, however you can make it unpleasant. I myself do not like sitting waiting to respawn, I will try to avoid dying if I know I have a 5 minute respawn time.

One cannot force people to work together, yet if we make the alternative unpleasant then people *should* start to stick together. This will increase the chance of survival simply because the enemy will be aiming at your team-mates as well as you. The next step is actually working together to achieve a common goal, this will involve fire and movement coordination, smoke obscuration etc.

I see this being most successful on servers where they aim to work together, but it should also improve the teamwork on normal servers as well.

The mission is fundamentally unfair, as one side simply has to sit and wait for the enemy to walk into their sight. Unfortunately too many first person shooters lean towards 'balance' and try to even out snipers, artillery support, objectives, ground to cover etc. That is bollocks, warfare isn't fair.

Just a few random thoughts chucked about. I hope it answered your question.

p.s. There is no snipers in this map, just squad leaders, riflemen and machinegunners. The core of an infantry fighting force, no specialists needed.
 
Upvote 0
#12
Dynamic spawning by location so that new troops come in to battle from the closest possible spot where they might have been hanging back (bombed out basement or the like) would make the game more realistic IMO. As one team pushed the other back then the spawns would continue to move back behind the front line. As it is now the waves create a lull and then intense action, which doesnt quite seem correct to me.

With the progressive spawn system the game can end realistically when one team no longer has anywhere to spawn from. There can also be "pockets" of resistance where, after that spawn location has been cut off from the "main" spawn by enemy troops, there will still be some reinforcements left there based on how many were "at" that location when the area was cut off.

It might also make mopping up more realistic and preven players from ramboing because the only way they could survive in those pockets would be to work as a team.
 
Upvote 0
#13
Actually I think progressive respawn points would be detrimental to the gameplay, as it creates confusion which leads to a lack of control which can be exploited easily by individual players.

In reality battles do have lulls and climaxes. The famous quote "[SIZE=-1]War consists of long stretches of utter boredom punctuated with moments of sheer terror" highlights this quite nicely I think.

I am not trying to create a nonstop shooting contest, I am trying to create a long, drawn out engagement with little lulls as both teams re-organise and ready themselves for the next attack. The emphasis should be on fire and movement, technique and teamwork.

If there is no time in between engagements, then there is no time for anxiety and unease to settle in to the players. If you are in constant action you become numb very quickly, apathetic almost. Good gameplay for me consists of moments of clarity and organisation, some short moments of complete panick and terror and some anxiety and tension in between.

You see my point?
[/SIZE]
 
Upvote 0
#16
Jinef said:
Can any of you recommend a server where people would like to play this style of scenario.

The map is ready, it provides a lot more depth in tactics than a normal game of Basovka. Because if only 2 or 3 people bugger up, the other side has a good chance of winning.
Click to expand...


give it to a tournament to play. Like Iron crescendo, if its any good maybe they will put it into the tournament.
 
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