The Berserker

[Yoshiro]

Round 2 Discuss - A poll will be added near the end of the week.

We know he is probably too nerfed now, but we were expecting that with the fix to his damage. Please pay special attention to this class not just on suicidal, but normal and hard games as well.

[Benjamin]

Since you've nerfed the katana's swing speed (I assume since you re-enabled autofire for primary fire - but not alt-fire interestingly) I'd suggest increasing the damage a bit to compensate. It seems a bit weak at the moment, and I don't think I'm the only one that feels this.

[Fedorov]

I think is fine now, need more and better testing in a suicidal 6 man team.

but for now, in a 4 man team with 2 berserkers, the guy with the Chainsaw was doing better than the one with the Katana at defending a spot.

That is compensated with the greater running speed with the Katana. I suppose they should be equal now, and the choice just a matter of preferred play-style.

So for now, I think the changes are good. But that is not my final word until I try 6 man suicidal.

[Merin Redplate]

Continuous alt-fire for Katana please.

[Entangler]

Quick question: Has the backstab damage been fixed (i.e. applicable to back attacks), or completely removed?

Either way, the damage nerf from the front is definitely a drawback. Not reliably killing Sirens in one Katana hit is a problem, killing Scrakes takes ages, and I haven't even tried it against Flesh Pounds but by the sound of things there isn't much point. Now don't get me wrong, I fully agree that the bug should've been fixed, but additional changes have to be made to compensate. Assuming that the backstab code was removed (and I think it should be if it wasn't - offensive Berserkers rarely get the chance and defensive Berserkers shouldn't wait for it), I suppose just doubling the Katana and Fire Axe's base damage for both attacks would do it. For some reason, I haven't really noticed the difference with the Chainsaw's primary fire...

Then again, the Chainsaw's primary still wouldn't have much oomph either way. My suggestion for its headshot damage multiplier(s) is already well-known, so I won't reiterate it here. There is, however, one other issue with it I'd like to point out: All hits taken by decapitated specimens are considered to be headshots for the purpose of calculating damage. For most weapons that means a slight damage bonus against decapitated specimens, which is intentional, but for the Chainsaw it means a damage penalty, which presumably is not. If you want to keep that mechanic in, and if the Chainsaw is still going to have a headshot damage multiplier less than 1, please add a condition to the headshot damage multiplier's application, like so:

        if(class<KFWeaponDamageType>(damageType)!=none  && (!bDecapitated || class<KFWeaponDamageType>(damageType).default.HeadShotDamageMult > 1))
            Damage = Damage * class<KFWeaponDamageType>(damageType).default.HeadShotDamageMult;

Other Berserker changes are fine. Damage resistance might want to be further reduced once the damage output issue is fixed, but I can't tell yet.

Fedorov: I was the one with the Katana. The Katana and 220 ping don't mix, so I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from that result. I'm not really sure which is the better defensive weapon at this point.

[Fedorov]

Originally Posted by Entangler

I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from that result. I'm not really sure which is the better defensive weapon at this point.

None of what I wrote is a conclusion

Originally Posted by Fedorov

that is not my final word until I try 6 man suicidal.

[Old Ranger]

Imo suggestion: How to kill Scrake with Axe and Katana

I would like to see that any perk can still stun Scrakes. But berserker can handle it more effectly and faster.

Berserker can stun Scrake like in update 1014.

Other perk, when using Axe and Katana must always use secondary attack to stun Scrake. Scrakes heads go down. You can hit primary fire 1-2 times at this stunned time. Scrakes head is gonna going up... Then you must use secondary attack again to stun. Timing must be right for this secondary attack. So killing Scrake, This should take about 4-5x longer, than Berserk himself. So it is very possible that other zeds arrives in that time near you and make things even harder, you need someone there who takes those others, or deal major damage to Scrake. Would be hard to kill scrake if not berserk, but it would be possibly.

I think this kind, or something this like would not be too much gamebreakin. And Katana and Axe will be still useable for other perks also.

[avo77]

Berserk is my main Perk in Killing Floor, after the new patch that came out I did find it a lot harder to kill Flesh Pounders, but after a while I found that if I saw one I could quickly hit it making it chase me while my team put tons of damage on it.

I would like to be able to take on The Patriarch on hard or suicidal, as I can rarely kill it with melee on suicidal. I'd love for the Chainsaw to actually be effective if you could either make Beserkers faster with it o have it do more damage than the katana. I'd love to see the Chain saw being alot more useful but having a fuel system to it.

[scary ghost]

Here's some of the changes you'll need to adjust to on 6 man suicidal. Note that the video is purely informational so you know what to expect.

http://forums.tripwireinteractive.co...5&postcount=57

In terms of the patch 2 zerker, he's become more of a pre-beta zerdic now. If you consider:

• Firepower - Patch 2 zerker does the same damage as pre-beta non-zerkers. Zerker now only receives double damage from his perk, while pre-beta non-zerkers received double damage from the back stab bug.
• Attack Speed - Even with the speed reduction in the katana, the 25% faster swing speed means the katana has a firerate of 0.5625 (0.75 * 0.75) which is a tad faster than the pre-beta value of 0.6
• Tanking - 40% resistance still lets the zerker take fair number of hits, even without any armor.

The main differences are of course the zerker has faster swing speed with all melee weapons and cannot be grabbed by clots while the pre-beta zerdic has superior healing.

YouTube - Killing Floor - 1015 Beta Patch 2 - Wave 7 + Patriarch With Patch 2 Berserker on 2 Man Suicidal

I have always run with axe/katana/lever and really I just find myself using axe more often than before as it can still 1 shot sirens and husks. Granted this is a 2 man suicidal game but we did make it through the wave ok only to be owned by the patriarch's melee through the back. Against scrakes, I used katana to stun lock (the other guy used chainsaw alt fire) and against fps, Axe alt fire. We were both playing quite sloppily but eh, maybe later this week we can get in some good 6 man suicidal games.

[Fedorov]

Am I the only one who noticed the typo in the title?

[Xienen]

Originally Posted by Fedorov

Am I the only one who noticed the typo in the title?

No, you're just the first one to care =D

[Salad Snake]

Berserker feels....clumsy. The fact that I can't slash as quickly, and can't dodge around attacks as effectively means I must tank sometimes, which honestly isn't very fun and makes Berserker's skill ceiling feel lower. His damage is a bit underpowered (so far, not my final answer), but it's mainly the combination of his swing speed and run speed that bothered me. However, Sirens not being one hit by the katana was pretty bad.


He honestly felt worse to me then pre-beta. If you knew how to avoid attacks while timing your own attacks you could do a lot, now you have no choice but to tank a hit sometimes, and a lot of situations that were borderline favorable (like, say, two gorefasts in front of a siren) before are now a lot more dangerous.

[Sammers]

So yeah......he's way nerfed.

Perhaps have it so that only Beserker is guaranteed a stun. I don't know if this suggestion is too much to add, but perhaps allow a small chance for any perk to stun, but not guaranteed like Beserker.

Obviously some kind of additional attack benefits will be needed to compensate for lack of power.

[nutterbutter]

(Yes, this is part of a huge post I made earlier. This is just the zerker stuff)

A few general things first...


Berserker: In my opinion, broken. And sadly, it looks as if it will be pushed every further in "superhuman status." Yoshiro - "We know he is probably too nerfed now" right now, there isn't any reason not to play the zerker. High damage, high resistances, weapons are damaging to all specimens, no friendly fire, weapons never run out of ammo, and so on. The biggest benefit is the ability to avoid "Clot Magnetic Grip™"

The biggest problem is that the berserker has no weaknesses. None. Not a single. He can run from everything. He can't be grabbed (the only real difference from medic). His weapons are effective against every specimen. He can't run out of ammo. He doesn't tire. Playing zerker is a no lose proposition in the hands of a skilled player. IMO, that is broken.

Benefits: Speed. High resistances. No ammo. No tiring. Top weapons cheap. Can solo any number of FPs at any difficulty by properly pulling them. In the right hands, un-killable on an open map.

Drawbacks: None.

Suggestions: Reduce the speed. Add some type of ammo or fatigue meter. Someone shouldn't be able to swing a weapon nonstop for an entire wave. Not should someone be able to create a constant whirling screen of death for specimens to mindlessly walk into. In my opinion, melee /wasn't/ underpowered before and the recent buffs to zerker have made that perk the only viable perk at all difficulty levels.

Remember how I spoke about "Rocks, paper, scissors?" Right now, there is no counter to melee. Melee has nothing to fear from /any/ specimen. Melee is easily the most powerful perk in the game right now and it is only going to get more powerful.



For the first time, in a long time, I actually switched perks during a wave because I needed to. It was wave 5 and I thought "I'm going to need grenades for the FPs." This is a good thing. Forcing player to play "Rock, paper, scissors" during the game is a good thing. Making people make choices because the specimens change is a good thing. Right now, I see no difference between the old sharpie + OP xbow and the current berserker + OP katana, axe, or chainsaw. Melee, and to a slight degree medic, fear nothing. That is bad.


I'm not suggesting that every perk be powerful to solo FPs and finish an 80 specimen suicidal wave. But what am suggesting is that every perk be equally powerful and the game play "rock, paper, scissors." Every perk have strengths and weaknesses. Right now, melee and medic have no weaknesses.

[timur]

Well, zerker is much less powerful than wave 1, thats for sure. Also, is it just me, or is the chainsaw better than before? I actually noticed the difference. Of course, the map makes a massive difference now (chainsaw beats katana hands down on bioticslab).

However, the katana is admittedly just a little bit too weak.

However, may I just point out to other commenters that the zerker has 3 classic foes: crawlers, husks, and sirens.

[nutterbutter]

Originally Posted by timur

However, may I just point out to other commenters that the zerker has 3 classic foes: crawlers, husks, and sirens.

I don't think so. Zerker has no foes.


Crawlers? Cannon weighs almost nothing and takes care of those. Pistols weighs nothing if that is all the zerker has and it has plenty of ammo.

Husks? Every class but support is easily quick enough to dodge fireballs and zerker has resistances. Melee can easily outrun Husks and stay out of the line of fire until Husk is close.

Sirens? Again, not really unless there are 3 or 4 of them in a group and they all scream at the same time and it happens to kill the zerker. High resistances as well.

Add in 1 shot kills against all three specimens and the zerker has [n]no[/b] enemies. No weaknesses and can use any weapon. Can outrun any specimen and can kite anything. Never gets tired. Primary weapons never run out of ammo.

Zerker is broken and is only going to get more powerful.

[scary ghost]

Originally Posted by nutterbutter

I don't think so. Zerker has no foes.


Crawlers? Cannon weighs almost nothing and takes care of those. Pistols weighs nothing if that is all the zerker has and it has plenty of ammo.

Husks? Every class but support is easily quick enough to dodge fireballs and zerker has resistances. Melee can easily outrun Husks and stay out of the line of fire until Husk is close.

Sirens? Again, not really unless there are 3 or 4 of them in a group and they all scream at the same time and it happens to kill the zerker. High resistances as well.

Add in 1 shot kills against all three specimens and the zerker has [n]no[/b] enemies. No weaknesses and can use any weapon. Can outrun any specimen and can kite anything. Never gets tired. Primary weapons never run out of ammo.

Zerker is broken and is only going to get more powerful.

Agreed. There is no specimen that can challenge a skilled zerker. Even with the back stab fix, axe alt fire still 1 shots 6 man suicidal husks and sirens and katana primary 1 shots crawlers up to bloats. Patch 2 zerker still moves faster and has more resistance than pre-beta zerker. Fleshpounds take more swings to kill but can still be down with taking minimal damage. Scrakes can still be stun locked with katana.

I have always run with axe/katana/lever and the only major difference with patch 2 is I need to use axe more to get those 1 hit kills.

[REZ]

I think the class itself (perks/bonuses) are fine.. it's the weaponry that needs some tweaking.

The Chainsaw, Axe and Katana are all basically the same power in terms of damage (I just checked it). I think this should change a bit.

The Chainsaw should be the most powerful of the group, but it should be slower to wield (it's a heavy machine as opposed to a katana or an axe, and it's potentially dangerous to the user irl, so making it a slower wield when swung makes sense).

The Katana should do less damage than the Chainsaw but should be able to be swung very fast.

The Axe should do slightly less damage than the Katana and also be a bit slower to wield. It should be considered the weapon of choice just above the Knife.

The Machete should just be removed altogether.

I also think the berserker needs a melee weapon with range. It's jolly ol' England, so it makes sense that there would be some sort of Midevil left-over to be found somewhere. In this vein I think a polearm of some type would be a good addition. Give him the ability to attack from a further distance than he can now. Maybe a spear, or a glaive of some type. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glaive

Another melee weapon with range could be a Simon Belmont style Flail (spiked ball on the end of a chain attached to a handle - sometimes improperly called a Morning Star). It could be slow to swing but do massive damage. It could crush the heads of anything below a Scrake, and stun the Scrake. Attack #1 (left-click) could be a circular swing above your head, and Attack #2 (right-click) could be an overhead swing from above your head toward the ground. Slow to swing so it would have a weakness against large groups of Zeds, but massive damage when it connects, and it would have considerable range as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flail_(weapon)

Besides the ranged weapons, some spiked gauntlets could be fun. Punching out Zeds with metal fists would be a blast. Medium to low damage, fast attack speed, zero range.

[9_6]

Originally Posted by scary ghost

Agreed. There is no specimen that can challenge a skilled zerker.

There is no specimen that can challenge a skilled anything, period.

If you're so good that nothing, not even the enemies intended to be a hassle for you, hits you anymore *at all*, more power to you but perhaps nerfing the berserker to suit your skill is way too far removed from players less skilled than you.

I for once think that 1014 berserkers were just fine except for the chainsaw and that pesky katana autofire which is about to be taken care of.
I also heard no one screaming "OP" and pointing in the direction of zerkers so this right now pretty much comes out of nowhere.
It's not really productive to be that way at this point.

[Sammers]

Well everyone's suggesting stronger Beserker weapons and I'd have to agree, though in what way they get stronger is up to TWI I guess.

I can only add that if the Chainsaw does indeed become stronger than the Katana, then perhaps high level Beserker needs to spawn with a more appropriate weapon; for example, the fireaxe or machete. Not his Tier 3s.