Changing the MP41, PPSch41

I think imbalance is an issue, as they would probably work as rifles, being able to take out targets at longer ranges.

I agree whit your idea it would make the game even more historically accurate.

as far as I've heard, only some models of the PPSH41 had selective fire

AFAIK early war PPSh41's did have selective fire.

In mid\late war (or shortly after early war) it was dropped out to simplify production.

Since what's the use of selective fire when practically only true effect would be having the fact others tap their mouses to fire the gun and others just keep same old fire at will idea?

(ok, sure it would add more 'realism' ingame but if we really want to nitpick about something small like that, why not overhaul everything that's just plain wrong by accuracy ingame?)

Switching to semi-auto does not make a weapon more accurate. The user firing more precisely aimed shots would.

Anyways, the MP41 did not have select fire and the PPSh41 select fire version was very limited.

Sturmboot Willi said:

the PPSh41 select fire version was very limited.

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http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg02-e.htm
This says select fire.

http://www.ppsh41.com/
This says the select fire was gone on "some of the late models."

In fact, the selector switch is even modeled on the in game weapon.

So where's your "stat" come from?

Sturmboot Willi said:

the PPSh41 select fire version was very limited.

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I think you should put some more research into that one.. there where 4 variants of the PPSH, the origional is easilly spotted because it has an adjustable rear sight, this model saw rather limited production, then there's the second model, the one we have ingame, with select fire and the flip type rear sight, that model was the most mass produced model of them all, seeing service and production from allmost the start of the war till the very end, then there is the third model, this one came about in late 44, and was more than anything the result of streamlining PPSH and PPS-43 production, this model did not have select fire, and was typically issued with the 35 round bananna mags the PPS also used instead of the drums, it has very limited service history compared to the second model, and not all factories making the PPSH adopted this new design, and there was a final model post war that also did not have select fire, and could not take drums, the magwell would only fit 35 round bannanas.

The second model, which we have ingame, is the correct choice for RO, as it is common on the battlefield from the beginning to the end, and the most mass produced model, but then.. it ought to have semi auto, that is correct for that model.

And no, it would not become a rifel, the PPSH has quite a bit of cone-fire, and not nearly the same amount of damage, it would however, be usefull for mid to long range supression, shooting full auto at thouse ranges is pointless, with semi we could atleast send some lead downrange, though it is unlikely many kills would be made like this, it could keep some heads down!

Recoil on the MP 40

Recoil on the MP 40

Are they ever going to fix the recoil on the MP40? As one who has fired (and owned) an MP40, the recoil represented in the game is far too much. The real MP40 is much more controllable. The MP40 fires from an open bolt. So there is a tendency for the weapon to very slightly edge "down" before the first round is fired. After the first round, an experienced shooter can hold the MP40 to a 3-4 round burst within a 2-3 inch group at 100 yards.

The weapon fires a 9MM Parabellum round using a blow back system. The weight of the bolt significantly assists in the stability of the weapon when firing.

The MP40 is a great close in weapon as well as a weapon that can reach out to about 100 yards with accuracy. RO modeling does not do it justice. It really should be fixed. German squad and specialty troops had a far better weapon at their disposal than RO models.

I hope it is fixed in the next update.

von Siro

Von Siro said:

Are they ever going to fix the recoil on the MP40? As one who has fired (and owned) an MP40, the recoil represented in the game is far too much. The real MP40 is much more controllable. The MP40 fires from an open bolt. So there is a tendency for the weapon to very slightly edge "down" before the first round is fired. After the first round, an experienced shooter can hold the MP40 to a 3-4 round burst within a 2-3 inch group at 100 yards.

The weapon fires a 9MM Parabellum round using a blow back system. The weight of the bolt significantly assists in the stability of the weapon when firing.

The MP40 is a great close in weapon as well as a weapon that can reach out to about 100 yards with accuracy. RO modeling does not do it justice. It really should be fixed. German squad and specialty troops had a far better weapon at their disposal than RO models.

I hope it is fixed in the next update.

von Siro

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Same with the Ruskie SMG's, the 7.62x25mm does not generate much recoil, and has a long flat trajectory that made Soviet SMG's supricingly accurate and with good range.

But this is not going to change, TWI likes them the way they are it seems.


Just do what i do and pick a rifle instead

The MP40 is a great close in weapon as well as a weapon that can reach out to about 100 yards with accuracy. RO modeling does not do it justice. It really should be fixed. German squad and specialty troops had a far better weapon at their disposal than RO models.

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Answer for this the second time:

Same with the Ruskie SMG's, the 7.62x25mm does not generate much recoil, and has a long flat trajectory that made Soviet SMG's supricingly accurate and with good range.

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How about a realism suggestion for all fans, since this is weapon based too, that germans must not have more than three SMGs max per map @ 50 player server, to represent the fact that generic rifle squad had only one SMG per squad, usually used by the squad leader. So, how about it?

In fact, the selector switch is even modeled on the in game weapon.

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Same as I could ask why axis MG class have those nice mittens or something like that modelled but no other weapon has. Or why our tanks have modelled some tools in their hull (shovels and such) and yet you can't use grab and use them. Or why axis soldiers carry their SG84/98 but why you can't use it.

And no, it would not become a rifel, the PPSH has quite a bit of cone-fire, and not nearly the same amount of damage, it would however, be usefull for mid to long range supression, shooting full auto at thouse ranges is pointless, with semi we could atleast send some lead downrange, though it is unlikely many kills would be made like this, it could keep some heads down!

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What's the point of switching to singlefire and then *clickclickclick* (besides for realism reasons) when you can do that even without selective fire? It's like the same thing with MP44 that I have never seen anyone using it with semiauto.

Ok, sure it would add more 'realism' we _all_ want that much, but it would barely affect anything else. Just the fact you have new feature which can be but as odds are against as (as with MP44) you won't see it any use at all. Or if you do, you must be dreaming.

Oh, and about suppression: Did we have any true suppression 'systems', effects or such in the game in the first place? No?

Oldih said:

How about a realism suggestion for all fans, since this is weapon based too, that germans must not have more than three SMGs max per map @ 50 player server, to represent the fact that generic rifle squad had only one SMG per squad, usually used by the squad leader. So, how about it?

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Actually, some of us would like that very much, and would rather see fewer SMG's but better modeled ones.

Ofcourse the Soviets will get the short end of the stick there, as they should have more SMG's but wont get them due to game balance, but i could live with that, even though i play Ruskie about 90% of the time, hell, i allready do!

Oldih said:

Same as I could ask why axis MG class have those nice mittens or something like that modelled but no other weapon has. Or why our tanks have modelled some tools in their hull (shovels and such) and yet you can't use grab and use them. Or why axis soldiers carry their SG84/98 but why you can't use it.

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Thouse are asbestos gloves, he needs to wear them so his hand is not given 2'nd or even 3'rd degree burns when he changes the barrel, they still use them to this day with the MG-3 i might add.

As for shovels and stuff on tanks, thats a strawman if ever i saw one.. nobody is asking for the insane here, like 150% super realism, where we can do everything a person can and everything in the game world can be manipulated like in real life, we are merely asking that a feature allready coded into the game be used on weapons that should be able to draw use of them.

Oldih said:

What's the point of switching to singlefire and then *clickclickclick* (besides for realism reasons) when you can do that even without selective fire? It's like the same thing with MP44 that I have never seen anyone using it with semiauto.

Ok, sure it would add more 'realism' we _all_ want that much, but it would barely affect anything else. Just the fact you have new feature which can be but as odds are against as (as with MP44) you won't see it any use at all. Or if you do, you must be dreaming.

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Whats the point? ever fired an SMG in this game? bloody rubbish it is!
And since this will not be changed, atleast semi auto could save your day.
Shooting bursts doesen't work at all (well a little with the German SMG's, but not enough), simply because recoil is moddeled so erradically that you cannot by any means predict it, its a game of chance, either you get it just right or you blow it out your.. well you get it, its like tossing a die, not a game of skill by any means.

And people do use Semi with the STG, hell i seldomly use the Auto mode when i play with it every now and again, no reason to, semi works like a charm.
Only reason people dont use it more with the STG is that the STG is actually somewhat managable on auto, much more so than the SMG's, its actually usefull.

Oldih said:

Oh, and about suppression: Did we have any true suppression 'systems', effects or such in the game in the first place? No?

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Absolute bollocks, suppression does work in this game, just not well enough, why? because LMG's and guns like the PPSH and MP-40 that should be suppressing people are not dangerous enough, people can't hit the broad side of a barn with them, so why not risk it and pop your head out and shoot back? i do it all the time against LMG's and SMG's, i know his odds of hitting me are low because of the cone of fire and/or recoil, but mine are very high with my rifle, its a calculated risk that pays off more often than not.

Thats just one more reason i'd like them to un-nerf recoil and cone of fire, but again, i know that wont happen.

Absolute bollocks, suppression does work in this game, just not well enough, why? because LMG's and guns like the PPSH and MP-40 that should be suppressing people are not dangerous enough

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The reason why they won't work is the fact RO is just a game. Sure you could make over-exaggerated forceful suppression effects and it might do the trick, but I can imagine the complaints of that. Besides, I find it very dangerous to be fired with virtual bullet as my virtual character stands in the line of fire.

we are merely asking that a feature allready coded into the game be used on weapons that should be able to draw use of them.

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Well I reguest a feature that soldiers should be able to use their bayonet without attaching it to a weapon. Too much asked for melee combat - I presume. Same as people have been requesting shovels, even thought they are quite unpractical just to grab from the cover and swing it.

Whats the point? ever fired an SMG in this game? bloody rubbish it is!

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What's SMG eh? You mean those automatic weapons people complain being that n00bish all the time? I have.

And people do use Semi with the STG, hell i seldomly use the Auto mode when i play with it every now and again, no reason to, semi works like a charm.

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Maybe, but personally I haven't seen anyone doing that. I guess I am just out of luck.

And since this will not be changed, atleast semi auto could save your day.

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Care to explain how? Sure one well placed bullet is beter than bad timed burst, but care to explain what prevents single shot firing currently?

like 150% super realism,

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What is up with the fact that people often are always for "realism and details" when it comes to nitpicking, but something very simple which relates with it is farby then? Like using your bayonet as a melee weapon.

simply because recoil is moddeled so erradically that you cannot by any means predict it, its a game of chance,

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So far I have only encountered that when I have been out of breath ingame (aka 100% out of stamina), but I guess I have been lucky with that.

Come on, even PPSh41 recoil is almost nonexistant if you are not fatiqued at all ingame.

Oldih said:

The reason why they won't work is the fact RO is just a game. Sure you could make over-exaggerated forceful suppression effects and it might do the trick, but I can imagine the complaints of that. Besides, I find it very dangerous to be fired with virtual bullet as my virtual character stands in the line of fire.

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You obviously never played Infiltration, no, we dont fear for our life and limbs, we are sitting behind a screen, but the game can promote caution, and one sure fire way to do that is make sure that if you do something dumb and rash, you die.

Sticking your head out when an MG-42 or PPSH has his sights trained on your position should definately qualify as both dumb and rash, and you should die, but more often than not, you dont, you kill him because he can't hit you (if you have a rifle that is).

Oldih said:

Well I reguest a feature that soldiers should be able to use their bayonet without attaching it to a weapon. Too much asked for melee combat - I presume. Same as people have been requesting shovels, even thought they are quite unpractical just to grab from the cover and swing it.

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I woulden't mind either of the two, i'd support that beeing put in, though i probably would not use it very much.

But that has nothing to do with what i said, adding select fire to the PPSH is a simple matter of tweaking the RapidFire superclass, so it has the semi code the NormlaFire superclass has, you are talking about implimenting a whole new weapon that needs to be modelled and animated, and then coded.

Stick to the subject.

Oldih said:

What's SMG eh? You mean those automatic weapons people complain being that n00bish all the time? I have.

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I have not heard anyone, save n00bs, call the PPSh a "n00b weapon" for a very long time now.. it feels allmost nostalgic, like back in the mod days.

Wake up mate, thouse things have a cone-fire that rivals the LMG's at their worst, and a violent random side to side recoil that you cannot predict, and even a micro burst will have you looking at the skybox textures, do you really think an SMG is supposed to work like that? is it even "fun" to play with? is it "fun" to miss that rifleman standing a mere 30 meters away by a mile only to have him calmly raise his gun and put a bullet between your eyes?

I've gotten pretty good with them, simply by training, training and more training, and i can get good kills with them, but man.. it is neither realistic nor fun, its hard annoying work! and no matter how much you practice, its still a toss of the die as the recoil is random, and its only possible under optimal conditions (full stamina, crouched or prone).

Oldih said:

Maybe, but personally I haven't seen anyone doing that. I guess I am just out of luck.

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Its rare and getting rarer, simple because the STG is actually good on Auto, a bit excessive perhabs, but good.

Oldih said:

Care to explain how? Sure one well placed bullet is beter than bad timed burst, but care to explain what prevents single shot firing currently?

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Quite simply, at more than point blank range, you are unlikely to hit with more than one shot with a burst from the PPSH, simply because it jumps so violently and eradically, with Semi, i could hit many times with that one usefull shot much faster than several wastefull bursts.

What prevents single shots now? lay down that MP-40 mate and strap on a PPSH, with that ROF its just not going to happen, not in any usefull way at any event.

Oldih said:

What is up with the fact that people often are always for "realism and details" when it comes to nitpicking, but something very simple which relates with it is farby then? Like using your bayonet as a melee weapon.

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Again with the knife.. stick to the subject, and try quoting me in full the next time aswell.

Oldih said:

So far I have only encountered that when I have been out of breath ingame (aka 100% out of stamina), but I guess I have been lucky with that.

Come on, even PPSh41 recoil is barely nonexistant if you are not fatiqued at all ingame.

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Non existant? i am inclined to think thats either Fanboi'ism talking, or you have never used the thing more than one quick try in a botmatch.

Go look at the code, the SDK is right there in Steam, have a look at what it actually says.. non-existant my arse.

Non existant? i am inclined to think thats either Fanboi'ism talking, or you have never used the thing more than one quick try in a botmatch.

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Now now, I don't really know that much technical crap about RO, and I certainly are not on fanboysim mind, but I mean it. Based on personal observations when your stamina is 'above' 75% I have never had any issues with PPSh. Especially if it's 100% I still have not really noticed any 'true' problems handling the gun.

Expect when the stamina appears to be 'below' 50% it seems like the recoil goes insane. And when you are entirely out of breath it feels like horse kicking back.

As I mentioned, just personal observation, but I guess that's just a synonym for fanboyism these days. So let us pretend I never said that - makes things easier.

You obviously never played Infiltration

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I have. It was and still is quite great mod. Too bad I just lost my original UT discs some time ago.

Rawr. About that running around and experiencing bad recoil with the PPSh... Just today there was one guy on Odessa, he'd run up the right German flank of the square next to the apartments. There I am, snug up in a bombcrater, I peek out by the smallest possible margin to shoot at him and there he is, standing, in IS, out of breath (I imagine) and he manages to nail me with just a couple of bullets before I can think "roflcopter".

Guess I have to blame it on his superior mouse control and mouse sensitivity way out of charts and that super-coordinated "pull-mouse-down" move, eh? Because obviously that wasn't the recoil bug, was it now.

IMHO, it's plain wrong when I often consider the necessity to up the details beyond the reach of my system, just to have that recoil bug on all the time. Or when I feel inferior in my standing IS PPSh shoots just because I prefer lower mouse sensitivity and have little place for abrupt mouse movements. Actually, I don't do standing IS PPSh shots because they never hit. Ever.

A few quick comments.
1) Suppresive fire should be made one way or another more dangerous, but then maps also have to be changed. Suppresive fire will overall make them slower, which means many maps atm will not give enuogh time time to the defender. I guess maybe after a while people will get used to it, but like smoke, just throwing in features without changing the maps will change how they are played, and will sometimes unbalance them.
2) The STGs Semiauto is very useful, and often used. Single shotting the auto is far less accurate than using semiauto (even firing really rapidly.) I find the STG in auto-mode (single shotting) is only decent up to medium range, while in semiauto its range is almost as good of an svt or g43.

The PPSH is very difficult to fire semiauto without firing 3 bullets minimum. It has the ROF slightly higher than that of a mg34. Furthermore, forced semiauto by changing firemode is just more accurate than player semi-auto firing by tapping the mouse. I don't know why, its just a fact.

However, if SMGs get at all realistic type of accuracy/recoil, being a bolter will be even more useless (up to the point that 90% of bolters will just be people with 2 grenades.) Map ranges are just to short, and urban combat is extensively favored over non-urban combat. Of the maps that require the attackers to make long-range attacks, only Tula doesn't give the attackers either armored support (which is fine) or HTs/UCs. I'm not sure of UCs (cause they have so many bugs atm) but HTs are waaaay to strong (often harder to kill than tanks.)

Basically, lets face it, RO has hit a point of equilibrium. Nobody likes the equilibrium, but people don't know which way they want it to go. Furthermore, going either way (one of which will yield a very nice equilibrium, the other being disastrous) will require lots of energy on the part of everybody.

The devs don't seem willing to do this.

[VFD]HH said:

A few quick comments.
1) Suppresive fire should be made one way or another more dangerous, but then maps also have to be changed. Suppresive fire will overall make them slower, which means many maps atm will not give enuogh time time to the defender. I guess maybe after a while people will get used to it, but like smoke, just throwing in features without changing the maps will change how they are played, and will sometimes unbalance them.
2) The STGs Semiauto is very useful, and often used. Single shotting the auto is far less accurate than using semiauto (even firing really rapidly.) I find the STG in auto-mode (single shotting) is only decent up to medium range, while in semiauto its range is almost as good of an svt or g43.

The PPSH is very difficult to fire semiauto without firing 3 bullets minimum. It has the ROF slightly higher than that of a mg34. Furthermore, forced semiauto by changing firemode is just more accurate than player semi-auto firing by tapping the mouse. I don't know why, its just a fact.

However, if SMGs get at all realistic type of accuracy/recoil, being a bolter will be even more useless (up to the point that 90% of bolters will just be people with 2 grenades.) Map ranges are just to short, and urban combat is extensively favored over non-urban combat. Of the maps that require the attackers to make long-range attacks, only Tula doesn't give the attackers either armored support (which is fine) or HTs/UCs. I'm not sure of UCs (cause they have so many bugs atm) but HTs are waaaay to strong (often harder to kill than tanks.)

Basically, lets face it, RO has hit a point of equilibrium. Nobody likes the equilibrium, but people don't know which way they want it to go. Furthermore, going either way (one of which will yield a very nice equilibrium, the other being disastrous) will require lots of energy on the part of everybody.

The devs don't seem willing to do this.

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The problem runs mutch deeper than that if you get to the real heart of the problem. IE the fallowing:

Three types of players play ROOST currently:

1. Realism buffs: These guys are all about everything being as true as can be to real life and wan't the game to show WW2 as it realy was. but they always will jump at the chance to get their hands on the real life weapons and actively talk about them mid gameplay.

2. History Buffs: AKA me.......... Like the historical information the game gives about each battle and love the level of detail on the weapons, and the accurcy of the sounds/weapons. We care much less about being as close as you can get to real life and more about gameplay ballance and just haveing fun in the game. We like to talk about WW2s history and the reason why weapons, and vehicles were used and what they were realy used for in WW2.

3. Gamers: These guys care almost nothing about realism and love to just play games that are fun and have lots of team work in them. They like to be part of big huge battles that are as difficault as they are fun, and intense all at the same time. These players just wan't to have fun and thats all.


This is ROOSTs' major issue: we have 3 types of players that all can agree that RO is great. But all have different ways that it could be better. IE the Gamers wan't more vehicles, weapons, and maps. The History Buffs wan't better sounds, bug fixes and more features. Last but not least the Realism buffs wan't to change the way the game is played and make it so things are more complex and closer to the real thing.

ROOST is trying to satisfy 3 types of War Game players and it's a tough job to do. No other game has done it as well as RO but for now anyway it seems that we have to deal with this fact that the main formula of the game IE Accessable Realism is not going to change one bit. And if there is a second game in the RO line it will be the same deal.

But I have said enough already think of it what you will.