Spawn issues

[nutterbutter]

Originally Posted by Entangler

You did a poor job of it.

I hate to break it to you, but if someone misunderstands something someone says, it is the speakers fault for not explaining things properly.

As for misunderstanding you, I didn't. You constantly, and I really don't care to go back and post your quotes, on how you wanted things to always spawn in front of people. If things always spawn in front of others then it is a barricade situation. Fight out of a room? One direction. Fight in a hallway? Two directions. But still effectively a barricade. You want a specific flow to the mobs. You want them funneled. You want to put a vent in the middle of the room so things could drop down? Fine. But NO ONE IS GOING TO FIGHT THERE. How often do you think a team is going to fight in a room or hallway when 40 - 50 crawlers and stalkers drop on them every round? So things will still spawn in front of others at designated spawn points. You even mentioned how a team member has this direction and so forth. What you want, and said, is mobs to spawn in front of the team. You can talk about the "ambush" but since no one is ever going to fight below a vent or two, it doesn't matter.

No one is going to fight under a vent. They will go somewhere else.

Originally Posted by Entangler

If you knew that before you wrote it, then why did you write it at all?

Just covering the bases.

Originally Posted by Entangler

Did you misunderstand what I said about the MinDistToPlayer property or something?

Nope. But you have to think about how people play the game. I mentioned that for the "ambush" that you say you want but really don't, the designer would have to put multiple vents all over the place.

Originally Posted by Entangler

Apparently I have to keep repeating that point, because it seems to mysteriously disappear from my posts whenever you quote them.

If I don't quote something directly it is either because I agree with you or I just don't care enough to argue it. You can decide for yourself.

Originally Posted by Entangler

Given that up until that point, whenever I had typed out what I wanted, you had responded by accusing me of wanting something entirely different, I'm surprised that it actually worked.

Yeah, hard to freakin' imagine when you actually type something out then someone understands you.

You talked about spawns dropping on players heads (you didn't like), placement of vents, and MinDistToPlayer (see, I mentioned it). In that last paragraph, you actually go into detailed gameplay. Big difference.

[nutterbutter]

Originally Posted by -[SiN]-bswearer

[*]Disapprearing Ammo/Weapon pickups

I'm fine with it.

Originally Posted by -[SiN]-bswearer

[*]Random or "magic" zed spawns that kill immersion

Considering how rare they are (1 or 2 a game maybe), I'm fine with them as well.

[Entangler]

Originally Posted by nutterbutter

I hate to break it to you, but if someone misunderstands something someone says, it is the speakers fault for not explaining things properly.

Not necessarily. There are several potential pitfalls for the audience too: including, but not limited to, inadequate language skills, inadequate background knowledge of the subject matter, and of course - everyone's favourite - good old-fashioned bias. I suspected you of the second (and attempted to rectify it) because your replies seemed to assume that the game works differently to how it actually does. Number three is the main offender here though: A recurring theme throughout your posts in this thread is an attempt to artificially dichotomise between Everyone Who Wants the Game to Be Boring and Easy... and yourself. (You still think we all like Doom2, don't you?)

Originally Posted by nutterbutter

As for misunderstanding you, I didn't. You constantly, and I really don't care to go back and post your quotes, on how you wanted things to always spawn in front of people.

It's only "in front" when someone is watching it. See below.

Originally Posted by nutterbutter

If things always spawn in front of others then it is a barricade situation. Fight out of a room? One direction. Fight in a hallway? Two directions. But still effectively a barricade.

What about four? Or six? How much can you really call it a "barricade" when the team is spread thin, and its damage output with it? What happens when Scrakes and Flesh Pounds that a single Crossbow bolt is no longer powerful enough to decapitate appear? And when there are enough specimens - with or without the Scrakes and Flesh Pounds - that the team can't hold every approach simultaneously, what of the "barricade" then?

Originally Posted by nutterbutter

You want a specific flow to the mobs. You want them funneled.

Funneled? Not necessarily at all. For a start, they generally only become funneled, within any sensible definition of the term, in enclosed environments. What about more open environments? Not every map is Biotics Lab, after all. Secondly, true funnels come with a disadvantage: You can't escape the specimens by outmanoeuvring them. If they come faster than the team can kill them, their only recourse is to focus fire on a single escape route, clear it in a timely manner, and run for their lives - while dealing with the ones that continue to appear in their path, not to mention pursuers that can outrun them. If there is only one entrance (which would be unlikely if I had my way, as such areas are prime candidates for extra vents), and the team's combined firepower isn't enough to hold it, they will be overwhelmed and die. The spawn cap/rate suggestion is intended to increase the likelihood of that happening.

A much more accurate summary of my position is this: While "barricading", to use your term, is a legitimate strategy, it is currently a lot more effective than it should be, mostly due to the way the spawns work. If the spawn mechanism was improved - an undertaking for both the developers and the mappers - then its disadvantages would become much more pronounced, thus going a long way towards balancing it. Magic teleporting specimens are an annoying band-aid at best; while I do definitely think they should be fixed, doing so does not preclude implementing any other measures - thus, in my view, the fixing would be best accompanied by the balance changes I've described here and elsewhere.

Originally Posted by nutterbutter

You want to put a vent in the middle of the room so things could drop down? Fine. But NO ONE IS GOING TO FIGHT THERE. How often do you think a team is going to fight in a room or hallway when 40 - 50 crawlers and stalkers drop on them every round? So things will still spawn in front of others at designated spawn points.

But where will they go? Another recurring faulty assumption of yours is that "there's always another foxhole", which simply isn't true. A vent isn't always needed to stop a place from becoming one, either; an area can be impractical to hold for other reasons, too: e.g. proximity of ground spawns (or the point at which they become visible, e.g. corners), props or other features that restrict the defenders' movement or obscure their vision, vulnerability to sniping Husks, and so on.

Originally Posted by nutterbutter

You even mentioned how a team member has this direction and so forth.

Currently they do, yes. With my suggestions in place, some still would, but to vastly varying degrees of success, and probably while on the run half the time. Besides, those roles aren't necessarily set in stone once assigned - undesirable circumstances (not least of which is player death) can force them to adapt. While I agree that the game doesn't currently necessitate strategic fluidity, I'd rather it didn't stay that way.

Originally Posted by nutterbutter

What you want, and said, is mobs to spawn in front of the team. You can talk about the "ambush" but since no one is ever going to fight below a vent or two, it doesn't matter.

No one is going to fight under a vent. They will go somewhere else.

There you go, telling me what I want again... Haven't you learned not to do that by now? That aside, see above.

Originally Posted by nutterbutter

Just covering the bases.

If you say so.

Originally Posted by nutterbutter

Nope. But you have to think about how people play the game. I mentioned that for the "ambush" that you say you want but really don't, the designer would have to put multiple vents all over the place.

And again! It looks like the "unwarranted self-importance" theory is gaining ground here...

I do think about how people play the game, strangely enough, and I've also thought about how they would adapt to the changes I've described. In fact, "how people play the game" is at the heart of the rebuttal I gave for your notion of honeycomb-style maps: Anything can ambush the players if they're sufficiently preoccupied.

Originally Posted by nutterbutter

If I don't quote something directly it is either because I agree with you or I just don't care enough to argue it. You can decide for yourself.

The implication was that you've been overlooking it, as you don't seem to have properly taken it into account in your responses.

Originally Posted by nutterbutter

Yeah, hard to freakin' imagine when you actually type something out then someone understands you.

I suspect that most people managed just fine; then again, they aren't all trying to be "maverick heroes", either. (Oh, but there's nothing wrong with disagreeing with you, of course! ...You're just contemptuous of everyone who does, that's all...) See above.

Originally Posted by nutterbutter

You talked about spawns dropping on players heads (you didn't like), placement of vents, and MinDistToPlayer (see, I mentioned it). In that last paragraph, you actually go into detailed gameplay. Big difference.

I confess that, on matters such as these, I'm a problem solver first and a visionary second. While I do usually have a particular outcome in mind, I tend to think in terms of, and am more comfortable describing, the specifics needed to achieve it. If I don't have time, or simply can't be bothered (I am hopelessly lazy after all), to describe that outcome in an overview fashion as well, I have to hope that my audience is sufficiently capable of putting the details together to visualise the result. Now, granted, I should probably have quoted that post about the variable spawn cap earlier, as much to clarify my intentions as anything else, but I'm not sure it would've mitigated the confusion that arose over everything else.