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Not One Step Back!

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#65
EvilHobo said:
Oh god help me.
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The 3rd and 4th page of this thread has put a massive smile on my face... :D

cod?... The quote came to my mind, then I read it.

Fog, just laugh about that with me here...
Everyone can do or say stupid things in their lives...
I have sadly maced myself while being high, for a sec thinking it was the listerine spray.

I thank you.
 
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#66
jedinstven-o crni Wuk said:
yes, and all german soldiers have been cowards and nazis like in Saving Private Ryan ...


To kill soldiers was NOT common in the Red Army. It happend. But it allso happend in the german AND US-Military. War has its own rules. If you have to retreat, you have, if single soldiers leave there positions thats a different story, it can happen that they get punished for it hard. If one soldier leave, others might as well, thats a reason why, at least in US, soldiers with combat fatigue, soldiers heart etc. or today just PTSD had to be send to a hospital as fast as possible. Not only for their saftey, but for the moral of the whole squad.

I'am all for realism, but the Red army was not that untrained and bad equiped army, so many think. It had periods where divisions lacked in equipement and troops. BUT ALSO MANY OTHER ARMIES, GERMANS AND USA INCLUDED.

W-SS divisions, in the last periode (44-45) tended from very well trained and equiped divisions to some, equiped just with 37mm paks and something not much better like a forke, bolt rifles from the WW1. Amerikan soldiers have been in afrika 1941, very bad trained, equiped and lacked heavily in discipline, after their defeat in casarine a whole regoranisation startet. The same happend with the Red-Army between 41 - 43.

I always read about "red army killed their soldiers, omg!", ... why not reading about, what the Wehrmacht did with cowards between the war? Particularly in the end period of the war. Red Army droped droped papers that proved its owner that he wanted to surrender. You could have been killed already for just "reading" it sometimes. Civilans have been killed, when they show a white flag out of their window or explained in the public how "sensles" it is to defend Berlin.




you have that already. Ever tried to leave the fighting area to far to the borders of the map?
:rolleyes:

USE YOUR IMAGINATION! Think about it, like the NVKD or your officer is hunting you
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Actually, the Soviet Red Army summarily executed about 250,000 of it's own soldiers for various offenses, including "cowardice", and anti-Soviet behaviour during WW2. This is more than the killed in action count for Britain and the US combined in Europe.

Now keep in mind the Red Army lost 8 million killed in action and at the end of the war, about 30 million had served in it, or were still serving. The 250,000 is about 3 percent of total deaths. This is still very high compared to Western forces, where the US executed only a handful or so of it's thousands of deserters.

The scale of the maps though would make this impossible to implement realistically. Those NKVD troops would be far behind the advancing soldiers, and individuals would have to move forward and backwards to achieve objectives. In effect, a reatreating soldier would be going out of bounds of the map and is already detonated by a minefield when he does this...so system already in the game.

They indeed, did have Politruk units, of the NKVD who would shoot retreating soldiers on sight or for any slight cause.
 
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#68
They indeed, did have Politruk units, of the NKVD who would shoot retreating soldiers on sight or for any slight cause.
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Politruk units? As a small platoon or company of politruks? The guys wore leather jackets, carried nagant and shot everyone in sight, just in case. Yeah.

Politruk is rank, just like major or leutenant. In 19 october 1942 such term as politruk was canceled. There was no politruks or commisars, there was no such power of nagant against retreating soldiers anymore.
Instead, zampolit was introduced. "Political officer".
 
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#71
slyder73 said:
They indeed, did have Politruk units, of the NKVD who would shoot retreating soldiers on sight or for any slight cause.
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I'm not arguing the 250,000 figure but I do have to question the veracity of a source which claims that a unit could be composed entirely of unit political supervisors. Who the hell do they supervise? each other?

Having read about the Soviet officer who carried out the ancient Roman practice of 'decimation' (randomly executing 1 in 10 men) in Beevor's Stalingrad I have always wanted to check his source too - perhaps this debate will give me the incentive to check his bibliography.
 
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#72
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#73
lol @ this thread

Ever since early releases people have used the excuse "War isn't fair" to explain team imbalances, or asked for a team imbalance to represent *cough*"historical accuracy"*cough*.

End of the day this is a game, a realism based game as far as the settings/weapons/vehicles are concerned. But unless you give all the Axis troops some advantage to represent the superiority they held a lot of the time either tactics or superior training blah blah there's no point in discussing it.
 
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#74
I'd say its a fact that all armies (especially those fighting in the Eastern Front) executed soldiers for cowardice (=retreating in a position not deemed suitable no matter what the situation on the ground). In fact, I would bet a lot of money, that at a few times such a choice was "tactical" aimed at stopping a rout. I'm talking about shooting soldiers on the spot, not deserters as such captured behind enemy lines.

At least its a documented fact that the Finnish army resorted to such measures. Off the top of my hat I can remember a figure of 11 shootings (no sources, sorry) where the executions were made on the spot by a commanding officer. The practice was condoned by the army regulations. The true figure is probably a lot higher as its implausible to expect that all instances were documented.

I also remember (no sources here either) that the German army executed less than 200 soldiers in WWI but the figure for WWII was on an altogether different scale (at lest 15000+). Moreover, the Soviet army built defense lines on the slopes of hills facing the enemy (not on the top) so it would be more difficult to flee as you'd have to scale to the top first before getting any hill between yourself and the enemy's bullets.

Anyway, the suggestion wouldn't fix anything as most RO players never move away from the enemy's direction unless they are going around an obstacle.
 
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#75
One of the worst ideas suggested ever by a **** wannabe.And such a biased suggestion,sure your 3rd reich welcomed deserters ,took good care of them and send them back home to their wives and children.

Here is another idea, maybe we should add maps with einsatztruppen too,where half of the players are russian civilians trying to escape from einsatztruppen and the other team is trying to bash or bayonet the civilians without wasting a single bullet or nade.If civilian team manages to escape they either starve to death or shot by NKVD,hence "Not one step back".
 
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#76
Nestor Makhno said:
I'm not arguing the 250,000 figure but I do have to question the veracity of a source which claims that a unit could be composed entirely of unit political supervisors. Who the hell do they supervise? each other?

Having read about the Soviet officer who carried out the ancient Roman practice of 'decimation' (randomly executing 1 in 10 men) in Beevor's Stalingrad I have always wanted to check his source too - perhaps this debate will give me the incentive to check his bibliography.
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The NKVD units were different than the Politruks who, yes, indeed had their powers altered over the course of the war. The NKVD however were seperate units and voracious in their persecution of "problem" soldiers as well as their ruthless treatment of some ethnic minorities in the areas the Red Army occupied.

There are actually some really good, recently written and well researched books out on the Eastern Front. Quite fascinating, now that the former Soviet Union's records and archives are more open to scrutiny.
Most of the records these authors use are from the Red Army's own documents, as even the killing of traitors and anti-soviet aggitators was well recorded. The records were pretty much locked away until 1991. Former SOviet republics like the Ukraine and Bellorussia are more open to letting the archives be examined than Russia still is, but the information is out there.
Three books I'd recommend for those who are interested are;

"Ivan's War" by Catherine Merridale

"Armageddon: The Battle for Germany 1944-1945" by Max Hastings

"A Writer At War: Vassily Grossman with the Red Army 1941-1945" edited and translated by Anthony Beevor and Luba Vinogradova
 
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#77
RedGuardist said:
I hope this is not from the same source, which said that MP40 folding stock was post-war modification.:)



(no offence man ;) )
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Sometimes we are correct, sometimes we are not. I don't mind being corrected if I'm wrong, it means I've learned something, which is better than to go on with incorrect information. This is whats great about forums, they can be a great source of debate.
 
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#79
slyder73 said:
Actually, the Soviet Red Army summarily executed about 250,000 of it's own soldiers for various offenses, including "cowardice", and anti-Soviet behaviour during WW2. This is more than the killed in action count for Britain and the US combined in Europe.

Now keep in mind the Red Army lost 8 million killed in action and at the end of the war, about 30 million had served in it, or were still serving. The 250,000 is about 3 percent of total deaths. This is still very high compared to Western forces, where the US executed only a handful or so of it's thousands of deserters.

The scale of the maps though would make this impossible to implement realistically. Those NKVD troops would be far behind the advancing soldiers, and individuals would have to move forward and backwards to achieve objectives. In effect, a reatreating soldier would be going out of bounds of the map and is already detonated by a minefield when he does this...so system already in the game.

They indeed, did have Politruk units, of the NKVD who would shoot retreating soldiers on sight or for any slight cause.
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I make a difference between execution, for cowardise and anti-political statements.

As I already told. I have no doubt, that the Red Army killed more soldiers for cowardise during the war, then britisch or American soldiers. But, it would be also interesting to view on this, in proportions, of how long and how much other alied nations fought in the war, compared to the sovietunion in combination with the used political/military - system. This is also a reason why germany lost the war, for example. The soldiers, on US and brittish side had a different level of training AND understandings to their leaders and establishment compared to soviet or axis soldiers. I dont think that a US-soldier has been arested or even killed for a "I hate roosevelt/eisenhower for this **** here!" cause his comrade got killed 5 min earlier from a german or japanese bullet. In the red army or geman military ... well, for the poor soldier there things have been probably slightly different if a high officers with "loyal" beliefs to the system was around. The Red army used a lot of more soldiers, also civilans, then any other alied army. Its clear that with a biger army, you have higher casualties, in every aspect. I also expect, that the numbers of kills of dersertes, are somewhat relative small, as it is not clear, how many of this 250 000 have been killed for what action. Who knows, if the onre or other soldier, was not killed cause his commander just dissliked him ? Lot of things that should be considered.

It also would not wonder me, if this "kills" you mention here, got less for the red army, during the war lasted. Its from economical reason, much more stupid, to kill a "well trained" experienced soldier, cause of defeatist and anti-political utterances. Also this kills for "cowardise" and "anti-political" behaviour increased for germany during the war. It was already punished with death in germany, if civilians painted on walls the numbers "1918" after the Stalingrad battle, to remember the extrem conditions under which germany had to deal with, after WW1. The germans, had more spies in their OWN population, then in use for counterintelligence. Such a system has of course a way higher kill ratio, for soldiers and civilians then a nation, with a somewhat more liberal system, like britain and USA. Also britain, has in many cases retrated, to save their armies, which many generals and comanders did not in Russia, on both sides and exposed whole million of men to the enemy.


250 000 are high numbers of kills, but also are all numbers of looses high for the soviets, compared to their allies. It still was not a regular tactic to kill every retrating soldier and was not the main task of the NKVD.

it is of course MY own personal opinion, but I think, the beliefs, of a "all coward" killing Red Army, is a urban legend. If that would be the 100% accurate matter, how could that work really all the time? As mentioned in another post. I think, that the conditions in the Red Army, have been more harsh then in many others, but doesnt mean that killing all cowards, is a everywhere usual tactic. You just dont kill everyone, when you spend so much money and effort in training them AND risk, that others, like comrades might do exactly cause of this the same and lower the level of strength
 
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