A couple of things to think about for the next update

[mbrooksay]

As the topic title summarizes, I am throwing a few things on the table for TWI and all of the fans of Red Orchestra. These may have been covered before, and probably have been thought about at TW as well, but here goes anyways.

For one, I don't think a player really deserves five points for resupplying a machine gunner. Half the time, the machine gunner will get killed before he even needs to use the ammunition a teammate supplied him with anyways, lol.

But don't get me wrong, supplying a machine gunner is a good way to help out your team, but is it really equivalent to half a captured objective? Supplying an MG should be one point, and one point only. Maybe two points, but that is even pushing it still. I believe one point is still a good enough incentive for a player to take a couple extra risky steps and help out a gunner.

With the five point thing we got going on now, a lot of players first instinct upon respawning is to find the machine gunner with the white text below his name, then bam, five free points. I guess the game assumes because of what you just did, the machine gunner will get at least five kills from the belts of ammunition you gave him, although I don't think that's why TWI made it five points. They probably made it five points to promote teamplay, which is good, but I don't think it needs to be five points just to promote teamplay. One point should be plenty.

Secondly, and a little more important I think then the whole machine gun resupplying ordeal, there should be a new weapon position: the shouldered position. This, I believe, has probably been considered by TW in the past, or maybe even right now.

My idea of the weapon-shouldered position and it's difference in comparison to the hip position is that it is faster to bring up the sights (due to the weapon already being at your shoulder; then it is only a matter of lining up your sights), more accurate unsighted shots due to less free aim (and maybe make hip shooting a little harder), a reduced sprinting speed, and the most obvious would be the gun is noticeably closer to your face, looking bigger then it does in the hip position.

Mainly, the shouldered weapon position would be used when a player feels he is close to encountering the enemy, so in case he is surprised by a hail of bullets, lining up his sights takes little movement on his part and is easier to access then having to pull the gun all the way from his hip to his cheeks.

How often have you died in Red Orchestra because your enemy got his sights up before you? I know I die everyday at least a couple of times because of it, and I always wish I could just be a little more ready for those occurrences. Having my weapon already at my shoulder would make life in a hot zone easier for everybody. Yes, even the enemy.

I've seen plenty of videos on the internet of soldiers running at almost an all-out sprint with their weapons shouldered. So to translate this into RO, maybe make sprinting with the weapon-shouldered position about 50-70% of that of your normal, all-out sprinting, accompained with a realistic amount of weapon bob.

What do you guys think? Do you agree or disagree? If you feel my suggestions should be modified, write about it. If you think I nailed it, tell me so. I want to know what people think about a shouldered weapon position. I believe it would change RO's gameplay for the better. Everything would be more interesting when your gun is ready to go.

And just as a side note, the HL2 World War II mod Resistance & Liberation has all three weapon positions: sighted, shouldered, and hip.

[snakedude24]

Oh man, here we go again. Let me just stop this now....


Because of the weapons' weight, soldiers in WWII were never taught to shoulder them. It was either hip or ironsights.


Case. Closed.

[snakedude24]

Originally Posted by mbrooksay

Mainly, the shouldered weapon position would be used when a player feels he is close to encountering the enemy, so in case he is surprised by a hail of bullets, lining up his sights takes little movement on his part and is easier to access then having to pull the gun all the way from his hip to his cheeks.

Umm...... Then everyone would do it.

Originally Posted by mbrooksay

How often have you died in Red Orchestra because your enemy got his sights up before you? I know I die everyday at least a couple of times because of it, and I always wish I could just be a little more ready for those occurrences. Having my weapon already at my shoulder would make life in a hot zone easier for everybody. Yes, even the enemy.

Well, you are going to die the same amount here, since everyone will now shoulder them. Either learn to hipshoot, be more prepared, or stop whining.

Originally Posted by mbrooksay

I've seen plenty of videos on the internet of soldiers running at almost an all-out sprint with their weapons shouldered. So to translate this into RO, maybe make sprinting with the weapon-shouldered position about 50-70% of that of your normal, all-out sprinting, accompained with a realistic amount of weapon bob.

As I said above, WWII infantry were never taught to shoulder it.
Just because a Marine can do it doesn't mean the SS could.

Originally Posted by mbrooksay

And just as a side note, the HL2 World War II mod Resistance & Liberation has all three weapon positions: sighted, shouldered, and hip.

Uh...... Yeah. And we all know how realistic HL2 mods are......

[mat69]

K98k 3.92 kg
M1891/38 3.45 kg
M1891/30 4.18 kg (with bayonet)
M16A2 4.47kg loaded
http://world.guns.ru

Edit: No I don't think that they should add this, but the weight argument does not sound very plausible to me.

[B4_CN]

In all my years in the military I've never seen anyone run with a shouldered weapon. It would be pointless anyway. A slow to medium paced walk at most and even then, its only for a very short time. Try it for a bit and you'll see.

[snakedude24]

The problem that was unlike the M16, the weapons were not balanced very well.

Holding it at your shoulder didn't do anything for your accuracy, so they didn't teach it.

[Byte Me]

Well in case you didn't notice, in RO the 3rd person animations show a soldier shoulder his weapon when crouched or prone whether he is using IS or not. And that makes perfect sense to me, who hips their rifle when crouching IRL? Better yet, how in the world could you hip when lying on your stomach? The shouldering option is something I think should be added, to match up with the animations and just because they weren't trained to do doesn't mean they didn't. Fighting for your life means doing whatever tactic gets you out alive, I'm sure soldiers figured out that having their weapon in a prepared position and ready to aim quickly was better than taking a hip shot, missing, and ending up dead.

[Murphy]

"...Soldiers weren´t told to shoulder their weapons..."
Who needs to tell them? If they think they need their iron sights in the next few seconds, what stops them from shouldering their weapon in time so they can access their iron sights faster? That´s common sense - not military knowhow.


Maybe the now unused walkbutton could shoulder your weapon in addition to its walking function. That way we have a good and realistic compromise between speed and "ironsightspeedboost" (C) and we don´t need an additional button.

[mbrooksay]

Originally Posted by snakedude24

Umm...... Then everyone would do it.

Well, you are going to die the same amount here, since everyone will now shoulder them. Either learn to hipshoot, be more prepared, or stop whining.

As I said above, WWII infantry were never taught to shoulder it.
Just because a Marine can do it doesn't mean the SS could.

Uh...... Yeah. And we all know how realistic HL2 mods are......

[Check your PM inbox snakedude, for it has nothing to do with my point persay]

Don't try and tell me a soldier never at least had his rifle butt to his shoulder, end of barrel pointing down, to be prepared in combat. Like the screenshot below shows exactly how I would want this to work.

This screenshot below shows the rifle in the shouldered position. It happens after you don't work the bolt, as many of you would have guessed. This is all the weapon shouldered position would have to look like. I would be satsified even if you could not shoot while the weapon is shouldered, and that you have to raise your iron sights in order to do so... In fact, I think that would be better then allowing us to shoot in weapon shouldered mode, so we don't get 5.SS babies crying about that too.



I don't even care if we wouldn't be able to run with it like that, which I still believe could be done, even with a World War II weapon. At least a half-assed jog would be possible. Or maybe the normal pace would be fine, and sprinting would be unavailable.

Would you hold your weapon down at your hip if you knew you were about to engage the enemy? Maybe if you weren't a very bright person. You're going to want that rifle as ready as it can be aside from putting it against your face.

[Murphy]

Running (not sprinting) is not an opition because everyone would have their weapons shouldered all the time. There has to be a disadvantage because in real life you can´t carry your weapon like that for too long.
It could drain stamina but I think the walking button is the better option.
Carefully approaching something with the shouldered position feels best while walking, don´t you think?

EDIT: The walking has to be toggleable then!

[Rak]

I think a "Shouldered Stance" would be a great addition for gameplay and realism aspect to the game. Shouldered stance should only be available for certain weapons and should provide faster running speeds. It shouldn't be available for PTRD or MG soldiers.

And the rest is; http://www.redorchestragame.com/forum/showthread.php?t=909

We also need momentum for FPS badly. There should be a limit so we cannot make 360' spins with mouse instantly.

[Zoring]

Dosen't seem like it has a point at all, raising to iron sights is very fast anyhow

[mbrooksay]

Originally Posted by Murphy

Running (not sprinting) is not an opition because everyone would have their weapons shouldered all the time. There has to be a disadvantage because in real life you can´t carry your weapon like that for too long.
It could drain stamina but I think the walking button is the better option.
Carefully approaching something with the shouldered position feels best while walking, don´t you think?

EDIT: The walking has to be toggleable then!

Yes, I agree with you there. When I hold my shotgun at my shoulder for more then a couple minutes you being to feel it in your left forearm. That's why if this shouldered weapon thing were to work, after a while of holding it at the shoulder, maybe there should be more weapon bob when you pick up your sights again.

[snakedude24]

So, I recieved a nice PM from mbrooksay.


"Lol, I'd hate it to come to this, but I guarantee I could spank your *** at Red Orchestra, anytime, any place, at any map, with any weapon."

Huh..... Interesting thing to say, considering that we haven't played each other.

"And who's to say I don't know how to hip shoot? I'm actually a pretty good hip shot, with any weapon, although I don't do it much with the bolt for the whole "it's not an automatic weapon." So I'm going to tell you to learn to shut the **** up. That doesn't sound to nice now does it?"

Yep, telling people to "stfu" really is a mature response to a historical discussion. You're a good hipshot? Good. Use it.


"Do you think I proposed a shouldered weapon position just so I couldn't get killed anymore?"

Yes.

"I don't understand why you had to come into my thread and start swinging your dicks in circles. I made an honest and civilized attempt to suggest something. Unfortunately "soldiers weren't taught that in WWII." Well excuse ****ing me. Unlike a lot of people here, I don't spend all my free time with my head buried in a "Do's and Don't's of WWII" book."

And...... I made an "honest and civilized" attempt to suggest something as well. And, I'm sorry - it's not my fault that apparently I have read more about WWII infantry than you have. As long as you continue to deride the people here who know the facts, you will get no respect.

"No one said you had to agree with me, but before you tell me why it's a bad idea, put it all in one reply and be coherent about it. Lastly, telling me to stop whining was a dick move on your part, because there was none."

Right, I don't have to agree with you. That just makes me wonder why you put this trash in my inbox.


And yes, stop whining. I want an M16 in game - but guess what? That's not historically accurate!

[[5.SS]Strother]

In fact, I think that would be better then allowing us to shoot in weapon shouldered mode, so we don't get 5.SS babies crying about that too.

lol, you hold grudges over a video game? Boohoo I got kicked from the 5.ss server waaaa waaaa

You are obviously some flaming troll kiddie looking for attention, so why don't you wait untill you grow some hair on your balls then come back and have a real discussion.

[SiC-Disaster]

enough mud-throwing guys

IMO, shouldered stance could be added, though you would have to walk only, not a run. it would give an extra edge to for example, the rifles in the first objective on Odessa. MN is very bulky and going in there will most of the time get you killed by some smg. this would give you a bit more chance, though the enemy could do it too, this would work better and it looks better too, seeing people entering with their rifles at hip-height isnt very immersive to me. i would imagine them having their weapons at ready, then moving in slowly listening for footsteps, not the jog with the weapon at the hip wich we have now.

the 'better chance' comment here is in this way: smg's dont get one chance, they start spraying and they adjust from where the bullets go and hit you soon enough. rifles get one chance, and in hipshotmode this is not very accurate. in a shouldered mode this would be better, since they know where their bullet kind of will go.
smg has adjusting, rifles dont have adjusting. shoulder stance would kind of be their adjusting.

[snakedude24]

Originally Posted by [5.SS]Strother

You are obviously some flaming troll kiddie looking for attention, so why don't you wait untill you grow some hair on your balls then come back and have a real discussion.

Based on your lovely PM, I would have to agree with Strother. So sorry.

[snakedude24]

Back on topic though, I can give you a realistic reason that this wouldn't work.

Try running in a shouldered position, and keep the ironsights aligned.......

[mbrooksay]

Originally Posted by snakedude24

Back on topic though, I can give you a realistic reason that this wouldn't work.

Try running in a shouldered position, and keep the ironsights aligned.......

Lol, are you ****ing retarded snake? Weapon shouldered and looking down the sights aren't the same thing...

When the weapon is shouldered, the butt stock is up against your shoulder and your head isn't down on the gun. Are you that dense? Must be.

[merder]

I'd say we go for shouldering weapons. Disaster has a valid point when it comes to balancing rifles vs. SMGs in situations where they have to meet at close range. Here's the way I picture the standing of the shouldered position:

IS: Best accuracy, tires out the arms, slowest movement.

Shouldered: Not accurate over long distances but better for close engagements, also tires out the arms, reduces speed somewhat.

Hip: Worst accuracy, no sway, best speed, rests the arms.

I don't see why we shouldn't have this middle ground some time in the future. I won't comment on how it should be implemented control-wise, but I have nothing against it theoretically. I cannot comment on the historical accuracy, but again, I have nothing against it in theory or in practice; I am sure another button could be easily implemented for its control.