Projectile Penetration

[Kipper]

I wonder if it would be possible to model penetration for some weapons i.e. MGs, AT rifles and tank shells but not others? Maybe this way, we could lower the number of players supported to 24 and have the niceties of penetration.

[Teq]

Guys, It's gonna come

Have patience?

Meanwhile check out:

http://www.redorchestragame.com/foru...ad.php?t=11008

Plz support us with your ideas and constructive comments!

[Neuromante]

Would it be possible to make characters and vehicles collide with a certain surface and bullets not do so? It would at least add the difference between cover and concealment.

[RedStorm]

For the love of GOD could all the little fanboys here please stop shouting "ZOMG ENGINE LIMITATION" every time someone makes a suggestion?

It is NOT, I repeat NOT NOT NOT an engine limitation. INFILTRATION '99 had bullet penetration. That's on an Unreal Engine that's two generations old.

And PLEASE stop saying "Oh, it can't be done if we want to keep up the realism standard we've set" as RO is NOT realistic in the slightest. Infiltration was realistic. OFP is realistic. RO is a fun shooter in a WWII setting. It has very little to do with realism except that it perhaps doesn't have point-and-click crosshairs (which, to be honest, is done better with the "general aim" crosshairs in OFP anyway)

How would adding simple bullet penetration be less realistic than tanks crewed by three (often by one) crewmember, though most had five in real life? How would it deter realism more than a Panther 75mm high-velocity round bouncing off an Su-76 at a 90 degrees shot angle at 200 meters? How is it less realistic than everyone respawning after each death (don't give me that "ZOMG ITS COMPANY LVL COMBAT U NUB LOL", because companies don't fight in areas as small as RO maps. These are squadron level engagements). How would it be less realistic than people jumping around corners hipping their mighty PPSh-41s all over the place? Less realistic than every single soldier running around on his own? Oh wait, these must all be engine limitations as well. If that's the case, it must be high time for RO to move to a new engine.

They've got the LICENSE to the engine, there are no engine limitations. They could make a bloody McDonald's fry-and-grill simulation if they felt the sudden urge to.

Everyone should keep in mind that RO does not really depict warfare realistically as a game (something a lot of people here seem to fail to realize, they think it's realistic to run around on your own hipping your little gun). It's a fun shooter and that's (what I feel) the devs are trying to keep it, and good on them. There are other infantry simulation games out there that do the realism thing heaps better than RO.

[Piscator]

Well, there are things that shouldn't or just can't be implemented in the game because it is a game. Some things just dont make sense, like playing without respawning or having wounded soldiers lying around.

I mean, seriously, who would want to play a critically wounded soldier lying around for 20 minutes, screaming and fainting? Or would you want to be the fifth man in a tank, just reloading? Other things make sense, as long as they add to the armosphere and are functional in the game.

So we all know that the game has to be enjoyable so we don't need people here saying: but this little tiny detail isn't realistic. We are not here to split hairs. I think the main issue is: Does this realistic detail improve the gameplay and/or atmosphere???

We want a better game and not better realism or was it the other way around?

[RedStorm]

Originally Posted by Piscator

We want a better game and not better realism or was it the other way around?

Yup. Sadly this is what RO is focussing on and it's the type of people it's focussing on. No disrespect to you. This is what made me stop playing all those months ago. The mod had realism, it was fun to play. Ostfront is just another mindless "enjoy the masses" running around and shoot people game.

[Rrralphster]

Dear RedStorm,

Maybe you will understand it this way.
The engine of UT and the code that was written by TWI puts cpu's to it's limits.
Adding bullet-penetration would make the game unplayable.
A complete re-write would be required to add bullet-penetration. This would mean that further development of RO would stop and the programmers would be working full time on your so beloved bullet penetration.
So indirectly it is still an RO engine (UE2.5 + RO code) limitation.

About your comments about Infiltration (I know the game, I have the 2.9 CD + the T-shirt...). It was a class game with cool features. But the only feature I would like to see added from Infiltration is weapon collision detection.
The team that wrote it must have been a million times better then TWI. Ask them to write a mod/mutator for RO. Some of them read and write on this forum.

[Oldih]

The engine of UT and the code that was written by TWI puts cpu's to it's limits.
Adding bullet-penetration would make the game unplayable.

I believe that adding dualcore processor support for the game, especially for servers, would greatly allow some possibilities, presuming we would have servers with dualcore.


And for some reason, I strongy agree with what RedStorm said.

[Piscator]

I guess if you want full realism you have to join the french foreign legion and like you said stop playing. No disrespect to you but don't you believe there is a limit to realism when it comes to gameplay.

You want to be fifth man in a tank or just handing out ammo to the machine gunner? Do you want to repair jammed guns or get rid of those lice? A small cut could give you an infection or you could become crazy.

How about that smell of urine, sweat,fear and sperms? Would you like to sit around in your bunker and wait 6 months for the enemy to arrive? The one time you got to the loo they will come.

You get my point. If you play the game as a team and not like John Rambo Hero it is a really good game. It has realistic aspects. There could be more but I guess they are working on it. And it is not a mass game. But as I said it stays just a game which should be fun.
Don't be offended.

[Rrralphster]

Originally Posted by Oldih

I believe that adding dualcore processor support for the game, especially for servers, would greatly allow some possibilities, presuming we would have servers with dualcore.


And for some reason, I strongy agree with what RedStorm said.

You can agree with RedStorm all you want.
What I wrote in my last post on this subject or more or less reallity.
Maybe my wording isn't entirely correct and maybe I didn't explain it good enough.
Fact is that there are limitations to what is possible...

[JCoquillon]

This has been discussed extensively in the past, use the search function and find previous statements and viewpoints on the subject please.

little point going over it all again.

[Byte Me]

Man this thread is crazy, simple fact is that this would put a lot more strain on servers, and would tie up the single coder (AKA the one and only RAMM) from other code fixes/additions (which other people want more so than this). I don't care if it is in Infiltration, those are the reasons given, so end of story.

[RedStorm]

Originally Posted by Rrralphster

Dear RedStorm,

Maybe you will understand it this way.
The engine of UT and the code that was written by TWI puts cpu's to it's limits.

Thanks for your reply, Ralphster.

But err, I'm sorry, but your authority in saying this is...? How do you know what's taxing the system resources at the moment? Please don't treat me like some sort of person of lesser intelligence when trying to explain this to me. I understand perfectly well what you're trying to say. It's just that I don't really buy any of it.

Ever since Ostfront, I've had the feeling Tripwire's been all about the money and attracting the masses and less about delivering a good game the realism-nuts can enjoy.

Also Piscator. Sorry, but you're just making an extremely invalid (borderline stupid) comment. How is saying we would like a realistic representation of combat have anything to do with picking lice from your hair? That's hardly got anything to do with combat, now does it?

And yes, I'd love to fix weapon jams in the heat of battle, yeah, I think it'd be fun to man a tank with five mates (the loaders usually manned a turret-mounted LMG anyway) and yes, lying on the ground for five seconds injured before shrapnel or bullets or bleeding kills you would also appeal to me as it'd portray war for what it really is. Not some silly game we can all enjoy, but something guys our age and younger had to live through day and night. Realism is "fun" or atleast enjoyable for a lot of people. We don't want to play a game where we feel like we're in a small box with 35 other people hopping about shooting eachother. If you don't understand how we can find realism fun, don't try and knock us down with condescending replies.

When RO's combat is more like OFP (which is very close to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6uU4...elated&search=) I'll start playing again, but I'm sorely afraid the developers' interests have shifted completely from that goal (a goal they said they'd never bear away from not two years go).

[Maschine Pistole-38]

Originally Posted by RedStorm

Thanks for your reply, Ralphster.

But err, I'm sorry, but your authority in saying this is...? How do you know what's taxing the system resources at the moment? Please don't treat me like some sort of person of lesser intelligence when trying to explain this to me. I understand perfectly well what you're trying to say. It's just that I don't really buy any of it.

That comment is a two way street. I haven't seen a Ue2.0/5 game that has penetration. Raven-Shield had penetration on wooden doors only, but other than that I haven't seen any.

We don't want to play a game where we feel like we're in a small box with 35 other people hopping about shooting eachother. If you don't understand how we can find realism fun, don't try and knock us down with condescending replies.

Uh huh, its usually the 'realism lovers' who want everything done in the game the first time. You think that somehow the Tripwire team is un affected by the problems of technology, time, money, and real life. You think that somehow because Tripwire turned its product from modification to retail that they sold out and would rather have money? They almost guaranteed to have a smaller profit by catering to the realism crowd.

When RO's combat is more like OFP (which is very close to this) I'll start playing again, but I'm sorely afraid the developers' interests have shifted completely from that goal (a goal they said they'd never bear away from not two years go).

OFP's combat always degraded into, 'See enemy, prone, fire until said enemy is dead. All the while they are prone and firing back' Hell, that might be fun for you and it was for me for a time. But to say 'make RO's combat more like OFP' is laughable at best.


Red Orchestra:Ostfront provides people with a complete balance of gameplay and realism. Do you think when I see a tank shell bounce off of a tank 100 meters away makes me happy? No it doesn't. But what does make me happy is that the Tripwire team took a chance on having realistic infantry combat COMBINED with a 'realistic' tank system.

Not even OFP and your fabled Infiltration has that. Again, if you want 'The most realistic WW2 simulator' just put your self in a time capsule and don't be asked to be revived for another 10 or 15 years because technology just isn't that far along yet. But don't look down upon those who are atleast trying to make progress.

[kabex]

I completely agree with RedStorm, RO:OST has never been a realistic portrayal of WWII infantry/combined arms/tank combat. It will never be.

It's a fast paced small-scale first person shooter with realistic features.

OFP, on the other hand... is a completely different deal. Ask combat-proven soldiers from any army in the world and they will tell you that certain OFP mods are the closest you will ever get to combat, unless you join the army.

I think RO is a lot of fun personally, so I continue to play it. I prefer tank combat because it's not as mindless as the infantry portion of the game, although it obviously needs a lot of work.

Again, if you want 'The most realistic WW2 simulator' just put your self in a time capsule and don't be asked to be revived for another 10 or 15 years because technology just isn't that far along yet. But don't look down upon those who are atleast trying to make progress.

It's very much possible. If a big, dedicated mod team decided to make a WWII total conversion for Armed Assault, with the intentions of being as close to a simulation as possible, we will have that game. It's possible in the OFP engine but nobody bothered to do it and it had many limitations which ArmA fixes.

OFP and soon, ArmA(both using realism mods) is extremely close to a simulation of infantry/combined arms combat. Real combat-proven soldiers will tell you this.

[Rrralphster]

Originally Posted by kabex

I completely agree with RedStorm, RO:OST has never been a realistic portrayal of WWII infantry/combined arms/tank combat. It will never be.

It's a fast paced small-scale first person shooter with realistic features.

OFP, on the other hand... is a completely different deal. Ask combat-proven soldiers from any army in the world and they will tell you that certain OFP mods are the closest you will ever get to combat, unless you join the army.

I think RO is a lot of fun personally, so I continue to play it. I prefer tank combat because it's not as mindless as the infantry portion of the game, although it obviously needs a lot of work.



It's very much possible. If a big, dedicated mod team decided to make a WWII total conversion for Armed Assault, with the intentions of being as close to a simulation as possible, we will have that game. It's possible in the OFP engine but nobody bothered to do it and it had many limitations which ArmA fixes.

OFP and soon, ArmA(both using realism mods) is extremely close to a simulation of infantry/combined arms combat. Real combat-proven soldiers will tell you this.

AAAAAAAARGH...

[Ironcheese]

Originally Posted by Piscator

a rifle bullet could kill two soldiers if positioned in a row.

but this feature works great ^^ did this many times

[Letum]

Originally Posted by Rrralphster

AAAAAAAARGH...

Well, VBS1 (Virtual battle system) is used by sevral armed forces for training and it uses the OFP engine.
http://www.virtualbattlefieldsystems.com/vbs1.html
[FONT=Arial]VBS1 is not intended for entertainment purposes and is available only to federal, state, and local government agencies for military, law enforcement, homeland defense, and first responder training.[/FONT]

[Panzer Meyer]

Engine limitations is BS, and the dev are lieing. They obviously have no clue wtf they are talking about. I KNOW the engine can do penetration, I can't back it up and prove that is capable, but I know it is. The devs are full of crap and the fan boys quoting the devs saying this and actually have facts is total BS too.

I like the acronym BS so I will use it all the time because it solves the argument and gets my point across as well. Anyone that disagrees is BS. Every FPS game I played has penetration even though they are sometimes handles in an abstract and non consistant way. I'd like for RO to have some ad-hoc system put in place that will only maybe work, and possible be BS (yay).

With my non existant experience and gaming development and no experience what so ever with the UE2.5 engine, I can say BS to to engine limitations.

[jedinstven-o crni Wuk]

Originally Posted by Panzer Meyer

Engine limitations is BS, and the dev are lieing. They obviously have no clue wtf they are talking about. I KNOW the engine can do penetration, I can't back it up and prove that is capable, but I know it is. The devs are full of crap and the fan boys quoting the devs saying this and actually have facts is total BS too.

i know, that it coud be done with the engine ... but you know, we have to still play the game then. Anyway, last thing i heard, was, Ram starting to get in contact with the NASA and CIA, about computers, to give us the "high" realistic features we need. Though, how we get our hands on the computers is a different story, but i recomend Mission impossible, worked for them well. Im talking with korea right now, about a trade, plutonium, for hardware. Dont worry, I WILL get my bullet penetration.

Seriously. Im on your side, i know, that many thnigs do not work right in this game, but i do not believe that that is in any way, a reason to call developers "BS". The game is fun to play, its just not what i or others expected. But abusive language, proves only one thing. Immaturity. Thats the reason, no one sees the developers answering in to threads.

and by the way ... who is the biger fan boy, them, who defend EVRY part of the game, even when they can SEE and FEEL that its not working right in game, or we, that demand our realism, even when it will break our neck ... there are always 2 pages of a paper.