Panzer IV H and STUG G variants.

[Maschine Pistole-38]

Originally Posted by thedonster

Such as ????????????????????????????

The SU-76 obviously

[thedonster]

Yeah, that's it- the SU-76!

[kabex]

Originally Posted by thedonster

Such as ????????????????????????????

Exclusively T-34/85 and IS-2 in summer '44.

Tell me which Russian armored unit fielded that?

[jedinstven-o crni Wuk]

Originally Posted by kabex

Exclusively T-34/85 and IS-2 in summer '44.

Tell me which Russian armored unit fielded that?

good question.

though, russians used IS2 versions as far i know before, summer in 1944, just versions, with bad armor (differntly sloped and produced) and poor amuntion, specialy the AP amuntion, was even not worth to be mentioned, if ever one tank had got them. First AFTER summer 1944, the IS2 was a real danger to any heavy german tank, before his "update" he wasnt even able to match tigers or panthers in any way, though the quanity of the T34/76 or T34/85 was a different issue and helped alot in many situations. No tigers can deal with a 400 T34/76 ratio! Witch was not thaaat uncommon for some battles ...

[Santini]

lol
I'd rather play arad as a tiger crewmen vs 40 T-34/76's, 2 T-34/85s and 1 JS-II then the current bollocks mix

[turbografx16]

As far as I know, Tripwire deliberately chose to "rape" the German team and give them inferior, extremely rare equipment instead of what they really used(which would annihilate the Russian team, as they should).

Kabex, do you have a dev quote to support you comment? Just wondering because I cant believe the devs would intentionally make their game less realistic...

Then agains, look at the PTRD, the faust, the MGs etc etc

[Zerknautscher]

I totally agree to the starting post! Panzer IV Ausf. H and Sturmgeschütz III G (with Schürzen) should be in-game. The SU-76 needs to have decreased armour, too. It kills a P4 with one shot, a P4 sometimes needs 3(!) shells to get a SU-76 down... keep this thread alive, I think it's very important for the game

[kabex]

Originally Posted by turbografx16

Kabex, do you have a dev quote to support you comment? Just wondering because I cant believe the devs would intentionally make their game less realistic...

Then agains, look at the PTRD, the faust, the MGs etc etc

I say it from what I have experienced, not from something the devs said.

The Russians get super elite armor they'd have never gotten in the war and the Germans get completely outdated ****ty tanks.

It's a fact.

[jedinstven-o crni Wuk]

Originally Posted by kabex

I say it from what I have experienced, not from something the devs said.

The Russians get super elite armor they'd have never gotten in the war and the Germans get completely outdated ****ty tanks.

It's a fact.

at least it was a problem, since the mod times. And already there, people demanded a long time ... other more comon BETTER panzer IV versions.

though, we still have to deal with this F2 crap ... that if ever was a realy dangerous tank in Afrika (called Mark IV special by the brits or so ... )

if i rember, it was guderian himself, who stated, that fights again the T34/76 shoud NOT be engaged with any german tank, worse armed then the Panzer IV G. The Gun from this tank was able, so far i know, to penetrate the T34/76 from any side up to a range from 1000m, but i coud be wrong here, thats i read from Guderians statements

[Santini]

Yeah, that's correct
I think the L/48 ended up getting just enough additional penitration over the L/43 to make it the "panzer happy time" or whatever the crewmen called it

[[TW]DrGuppy]

Originally Posted by kabex

As far as I know, Tripwire deliberately chose to "rape" the German team and give them inferior, extremely rare equipment instead of what they really used(which would annihilate the Russian team, as they should).

You do know that the Germans lost the war right?

New rule: I will not take anyone seriously in an armor thread if they have a Tiger in their signature.

[kabex]

Originally Posted by DrGuppy

You do know that the Germans lost the war right?

New rule: I will not take anyone seriously in an armor thread if they have a Tiger in their signature.

You're right, I just made up the fact that Russians get nothing but T34-85s and IS-2s on a Summer44 map(Arad).

It's complete bull**** from my part, I made it up. Truth is, Russians get Mostly T-34/76s and a few 85s and one IS2 on that map!

[[TW]DrGuppy]

That's not a very good solution IMO. Since the latest patch the Germans have no trouble winning on Arad. The map is quite balanced now and if you change the tank loadouts you will ruin that balance but I doubt you would care because it's all about the Germans annihilating the Russians right?

[Zerknautscher]

Well it would be fair if the Germans got better tanks ingame. Russians had way more tanks, but poor communication and little experience. These are facts you can't be considerate of in a game of course. The Germans were mostly the opposite: less tanks, more experience and good communication. You can't show that either, what brings me to the conclusion that the teams should get the same chances by giving them more balanced vehicles: weaker SU76 (in armor conditions at least), NO clowncar at all, PzKfw 4 Ausf. H, StuG III G with Schürzen

Oh and by the way: the russians have WAY better chances of winning on Arad, because the german spawns are sourrounded by unpassable woods; alle the russians need to to is to camp in the dead angle of the german spawns, and any german tank passing that woods will be annihilated... So you need 2 good russian tankers and the battle is done -_-

[kabex]

I never said anything about balance. I was talking about REALISTIC REAL WORLD LOADOUTS AND ORDERS OF BATTLE.

[[TW]DrGuppy]

Originally Posted by kabex

As far as I know, Tripwire deliberately chose to "rape" the German team and give them inferior, extremely rare equipment instead of what they really used(which would annihilate the Russian team, as they should).

They also chose to make most maps with tanks, later in the war. Also, in the late war, they give the Germans completely outdated useless vehicles(mostly) and the Russians uber-elite top-of-the-line vehicles which no unit ever fielded.

It seems very clear to me that you are trying to change the balance in favour of the Germans, are you not? Either way you're talking about map balance and at the moment they are about as equal as they can get for both sides. Changing that will make it unfair and ruin the fun for one side. There is nothing wrong with a fair fight, even if you have to bend historical accuracy to get it.

[Dheepan]

Originally Posted by kabex

I never said anything about balance. I was talking about REALISTIC REAL WORLD LOADOUTS AND ORDERS OF BATTLE.

How about you face off agaist 3 times as many tanks with your panzer 4 H, and I'm sure you'll be wanting the old way. Then talk about loadouts

[kabex]

Originally Posted by DrGuppy

It seems very clear to me that you are trying to change the balance in favour of the Germans, are you not? Either way you're talking about map balance and at the moment they are about as equal as they can get for both sides. Changing that will make it unfair and ruin the fun for one side. There is nothing wrong with a fair fight, even if you have to bend historical accuracy to get it.

No, I don't want to balance it. I want the Germans to get REAL TANKS just like the soviets.

Pz IV F/2s = not real. All T34/85s = not real.

T34/85 = rapes PzIVF/2, it's not up for discussion.

It's a rapefest. Germans get spit on with the current loadout(talking armor only, not whether they win the map or not).

I want REAL TANKS. That's what I want.

I don't want unrealistic loadouts. For example, the Germans had great tanks like the Tiger/TigerII but they weren't common, so we should only see 1 or 2 per map. Same with the IS-2.

If giving the German team 12 kingtigers made it balanced, should they get them? No. That's completely unrealistic.

How about you face off agaist 3 times as many tanks with your panzer 4 H, and I'm sure you'll be wanting the old way. Then talk about loadouts

You know what? I'll gladly do that, but on Orel.

I get a PzIV-H and the enemy 3 times as many T34/76. Actually, that's perfect!

I kill so many T34/76s on Orel88 with my F/2 that I run out of ammo easily! And the F/2 is a crap tank.

[Kurtz]

Originally Posted by kabex

Also, in the late war, they give the Germans completely outdated useless vehicles(mostly) and the Russians uber-elite top-of-the-line vehicles which no unit ever fielded.

The German vehicles are outdated. Panzer IV H's and StuG G's would be better for the later maps, I agree. As for the Russians having tanks that are too good, it is way more likely that the Russians would have brought all those tanks to the battle in 1944 then the Germans having their impressive armada in summer 1944 that is shown in Arad.

If Arad is unbalanced it's not due to the inequalities of the tanks, but due to the fact that it is too easy for the much more mobile soviet tanks to take the axis south field.

[karl stiner]

you can see the concrete on a stug here http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...highlight=stug