Refer to my post linking to the ideas and suggestions forum. This is where this topic should be.
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A little MG update? (my suggestion)
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i do miss the RO1 machineguns, in good hands they could pin down half the team. cant tell you how many russians ive cut down with the MG42.
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Cut down rifle rounds? Last I checked, the MG34 fires the same round as the Kar98, no? Pretty sure the DP28 fires the same thing as the Mosin and both of those probably out of a similar length barrel.
The MGs need to simply be more fearsome on the battlefield IMHO. They should IMHO reduce the recoil on both guns (while deployed, not sure how a gun rises that quickly....), increase the volume it makes + give them more "beef" in the sounds. The DP28 for example.... uhhh, what noise is it making at about 75m away? Sounds like a 1980s Action Movie Uzi.
Oh, and make suppression useful. It's a mechanic that is there, but has really no effect on the outcome as it is now more often than not. The system exists to try and put some fear into you, but it rarely if ever does that. Either buff it up as a whole, or just get rid of it I think.
There are several spots that work well, for example on Grain Elevator with my MG34 I can keep the Russians in their spawn on the tricky second zone from somewhat safety with the right positioning. Right now, many of the other maps I can't put enough cover between me and the enemy with the MGs.
The MGs need to simply be more fearsome on the battlefield IMHO. They should IMHO reduce the recoil on both guns (while deployed, not sure how a gun rises that quickly....), increase the volume it makes + give them more "beef" in the sounds. The DP28 for example.... uhhh, what noise is it making at about 75m away? Sounds like a 1980s Action Movie Uzi.
Oh, and make suppression useful. It's a mechanic that is there, but has really no effect on the outcome as it is now more often than not. The system exists to try and put some fear into you, but it rarely if ever does that. Either buff it up as a whole, or just get rid of it I think.
There are several spots that work well, for example on Grain Elevator with my MG34 I can keep the Russians in their spawn on the tricky second zone from somewhat safety with the right positioning. Right now, many of the other maps I can't put enough cover between me and the enemy with the MGs.
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I have to disagree with your "lols". The MG (provided a good support group) can prove to be beastly, especially in DH too. In RO2 a riflemen can "box pop up in 0.001" of a second and tag the MG, but in ROOST, it wasn't the case (unless he was in a flanking position)
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The more I use the LMG in RO2 the more I'm finding it works quite well in its intended role. Remember you're using an [L]MG, which is more like a heavier full-auto bolt rifle than it is like a tripod mounted MG in the sustained-fire role.
There are a few changes that would be good, I don't think suppression is really one of them.
1. Make it easier to deploy. Too many places look like a good spot to set up but you actually can't and while you're busy wrestling with the deployment system you aren't killing the enemy - you're getting killed instead.
2. Make the rounds more lethal. If you get 2 or 3 centre mass hits with an LMG the victim should drop straight away. No field dressing is going to save that. At the moment LMG hits seem less lethal than bolt-action rifle hits and even MkB hits. Based on bullet weight and muzzle velocity each individual MG hit should be at least as lethal and incapacitating as a rifle bullet hit. 3 of them in a single burst should be lights-out right away, not return fire and bandage.
3. Fix the in-game lag. The server browser shows 60 ping but in-game I see 180 ping. This makes it much harder to hit a crossing target at range than it should be. This means to be really lethal I have to be front-on to the enemy when good LMG doctrine teaches me I should be engaging in enfilade aka shooting crossing targets.
There are a few changes that would be good, I don't think suppression is really one of them.
1. Make it easier to deploy. Too many places look like a good spot to set up but you actually can't and while you're busy wrestling with the deployment system you aren't killing the enemy - you're getting killed instead.
2. Make the rounds more lethal. If you get 2 or 3 centre mass hits with an LMG the victim should drop straight away. No field dressing is going to save that. At the moment LMG hits seem less lethal than bolt-action rifle hits and even MkB hits. Based on bullet weight and muzzle velocity each individual MG hit should be at least as lethal and incapacitating as a rifle bullet hit. 3 of them in a single burst should be lights-out right away, not return fire and bandage.
3. Fix the in-game lag. The server browser shows 60 ping but in-game I see 180 ping. This makes it much harder to hit a crossing target at range than it should be. This means to be really lethal I have to be front-on to the enemy when good LMG doctrine teaches me I should be engaging in enfilade aka shooting crossing targets.
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Yes to all three of these, but ESPECIALLY that first one.
My biggest gripe about LMGs is the difficulty in deploying them in locations that don't light me up like a Christmas tree as soon as I fire them. Being able to shoulder and brace them like a rifle would go a long way towards helping this, though bipod deployment would be the most stable and effective way of using them. Being able to brace it on a table or a low wall without that clunky (and impossible to escape) deploying animation for an impromptu defense would be invaluable.
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Check out that Crysis 2's cover system video I linked. I think that's how cover and bipads deployment should work in this game; no clunky extra animation, just move in, aim, and you are in cover.
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I'm not suggesting that there should be a wider area of suppression BTW, just saying that you should feel more heavily affected when being shot by a machinegun while behind cover.
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the best place for a mger is 150+m from the target, makes you hard to spot right off the bat so the only thing you realy need to fear is snipers, only problem is that there are so few good postions like that.
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It's all about knowing where to look, but yes, I have the most success as an MG'er between 150m and 200m.
And again Extremity, such an effect is gamey and immersion-breaking. Real suppression is psychological, and it does happen in game regardless of the lack of a true fear of death. As soon as people realize they're being MG'd at, they drop prone or go behind cover and start hunting the MGer. That's suppressed. They aren't shooting at my buddies, they aren't capping points, their entire focus has switched from what's important (completing objectives and killing enemies) to trying to find and kill one person. Played right, I can lead the enemy team on a merry chase over the course of several of their respawns as they try desperately to find and dislodge me from their flanks.
Meanwhile, the timer is counting down and my mates aren't fighting nearly as many guys as they would be without my help.
This is far more effective suppression than any sort of screen filter or wavy rifle.
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I think that ther could be a blend of the RO1 "suppression" effect and the long-term suppression effect of RO2. The short, sharp crack of a bullet flying by your head to give you a reason to hit the dirt, and one to simulate being under prolonged enemy fire. But of course to point of a MG is to kill the enemy, not simply shoot near them. I think that the MG is too easy to hip-fire, and a tad too difficult to use deployed. I personally don't have a problem with this, but too many players pick MG for the wrong reason (to satisfy their Rambo fantasies).
Also don't forget that all of the characterisitcs of the MG improve with leveling, recoil control, sway reduction, deploy speed, aiming speed all increase as you level. Since most of use have probably not played with a completely leveled up MG, there are still spects of it we haven't seen.
Feel free to make the, "we shouldn't have to level up for the MG to work" arguement, because I completely agree with you. But since the leveling is here to stay, it is the best assurance I can offer.
Also don't forget that all of the characterisitcs of the MG improve with leveling, recoil control, sway reduction, deploy speed, aiming speed all increase as you level. Since most of use have probably not played with a completely leveled up MG, there are still spects of it we haven't seen.
Feel free to make the, "we shouldn't have to level up for the MG to work" arguement, because I completely agree with you. But since the leveling is here to stay, it is the best assurance I can offer.
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About the MG needing to be more accurate, you should wait and see what its like once you've leveled up your weapon (I know the stats arn't working for a few people though). I love the mg in this game, can't wait to level it up so my recoil and deployment time reduce. Plus the mg34 sounds awesome, and if your quick and have a sharp eye you can cover a huge area, just don't deploy where there are heaps of vantage points and windows for the enemy to snipe you, but like I said if you're quick enough you can fire a burst as soon as they pop they're heads out.
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Problem is, as it stands right now we don't have many maps with that kind of range in practicality. Sure you can get 150m away from the action, but you have nothing to shoot.
I dunno. Last night after my post in here I played around some more... Pavlov's House (one of the larger maps in the game) I just locked down 9th January Square, racked up 78 kills with the MG34, and essentially conquered that land for the Fatherland. That section is a MG paradise. But again... Most maps are too close quarters or have zero cover. Sure I had not that many team points, then again, most of them were dead before they hit the capzone. lmao
Can't do that with any other weapons. And these things aren't accurate enough, have too much recoil? It's a hard case to sell in many regards after an experience like that.
But again, I really think we'd be better off to view RO2 vanilla as a shooter for the masses, with TWI expecting the more hardcore group to pick up mods eagerly. I don't think the dynamics need changing much (except what I already mentioned, and some of the others mentioning as well), as we still have the same maps. More fearsome on Apartments means the gun is freakin *Insert Religious Figure Here* crossbred with Chuck Norris on Steroids.
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The role of the MG is not to find a spot, stay here the entire game and kill a maximum of unaware enemies until you get shot. The bad game mechanics force us to do this.
The only game were i saw MG do the work they would do IRL with some fun is Darkest Hour mod. Even Arma series didn't.
It was a.w.e.s.o.m.e to play MG. Moving with your guys, set up your machine-gun when you need to help where you want it to be. Using suppressive and cover fire with a real effectiveness. Firing crazily across the entire field to make the enemy crawl down.
No need to find the one spot once on every maps.
Was great
The only game were i saw MG do the work they would do IRL with some fun is Darkest Hour mod. Even Arma series didn't.
It was a.w.e.s.o.m.e to play MG. Moving with your guys, set up your machine-gun when you need to help where you want it to be. Using suppressive and cover fire with a real effectiveness. Firing crazily across the entire field to make the enemy crawl down.
No need to find the one spot once on every maps.
Was great
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The role of the MG is not to find a spot, stay here the entire game and kill a maximum of unaware enemies until you get shot. The bad game mechanics force us to do this.
The only game were i saw MG do the work they would do IRL with some fun is Darkest Hour mod. Even Arma series didn't.
It was a.w.e.s.o.m.e to play MG. Moving with your guys, set up your machine-gun when you need to help where you want it to be. Using suppressive and cover fire with a real effectiveness. Firing crazily across the entire field to make the enemy crawl down.
No need to find the one spot once on every maps.
Was great
But I do all that stuff now, just far more realistically than in Darkest Hour...
I -never- camp one spot, because that just makes it easy to find and fix me. I can be a successful machine gunner even on servers with kill-cams, because I'm moving with my squad, at their flanks, crawling prone to each new location, setting up, and eliminating threats.
Just so you know, this isn't how you're supposed to use LMGs:
Saving Private Ryan Omaha Beach Scene - YouTube
This should give you a better idea of what these guns were supposed to do.
English BREN gun Vs american B.A.R - YouTube
This should give you a better idea of what these guns were supposed to do.
Ignoring the last part (which is just screwing around, though it demonstrates that you don't have to be rambo to hip shoot an LMG), you can see the difference between HMGs and LMGs. The HMGs are mounted onto a fixed position or a tripod, very heavy, and usually belt fed. The LMGs, like the MG34 or the DP-28 (or the Bren or BAR), are squad portable weapons with small magazines (not belts for huge bursts of sustained fire) designed to make one man akin to ten regular riflemen in his firepower and damage output.
The MG-42 and Browning .30 cal, on the other hand, are support machine guns designed to be set up behind friendly lines and to provide fire support from long ranges. They're big, belt fed, and usually mounted onto a tripod. They -can- be used by as few as one man, but they aren't designed for that. LMGs are designed for single-person use.
There's a huge difference in tactics between using an LMG and an HMG.
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... no, really?
...Sure you can't use the BAR or MG34 like a .30 cal.
But the difference between DH and RO2 is with the game mechanics. In DH your targets, let say 4 men will reacts to your (suppressive) fire and try to cover if they can before shoot back. Even with 75 bullets from the MG-34 you can force an enemy to get his head down during few seconds.
In RO2, one or two will run or take cover, the others will just blow your head with a clean head shot (and they are your target, not soldiers who are around).
Just to say that in find frustrating to get head shot, clean and straight, by my target when i play the MG class. Yes you are a good player and do super MG shot and are happy.
But not all players are super-pro gamer and the average player find the rifle easier to kill someone, including the others MG.
Just look the slots, they are often free, that's speak for itself.
Note: In RO/DH i never seen this. Free slots like that...
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