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Why Zoom is not Good for Gameplay

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#41
luciferintears said:
You know what else is less realistic? Respawning after you die.

This is a game, not a simulator nor is it real life. in which case:

BALANCE > REALISM

A mechanic that allows me to see 4x further that what i should be seeing (in the game world, dont tell me this is how it is in reality), is not balanced gameplay in my opinion.

One of these days i'm going to make a realistic game. In that game you will go on patrol for 2hours real time, whereupon the only action you encounter is a sniper that promptly runs away after killing your teammate. Then you will return back to base, and then stand in line at the mess hall for 30min. After you are done eating (in real time), you will return to your quarters and type up a full 5page after action report.

Can we please stop bringing realism into this? RO2 is a an action game with some light accessible "realism" sprinkled on for good flavor. Its a good game though...
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Wrong. RO was is and always will be a realistic game. The developers have even said so. There're not trying to change the game by adding in a new feature that you don't like, you are trying to keep it unrealistic, whereas most people want this game to be realistic. If you don't like the game, find another game, don't try to change this one.

Realism = balance.

You change one thing to make it more "balanced" it ends up upsetting something else. Then you try changing that to make it more "balanced" and it upsets something else. Thus CoD was born.

Stalingrad was a bloody battle that lasted more months in a seeming stalemate. That seems pretty balanced on its own doesn't it?
 
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#45
StardogChampion said:
It does mean you're more likely to get a hit, because you're able to judge the shot better + you get a steadier weapon from holding your breath, regardless of having the same bullet-drop issues, etc.

Half the players on FH camp near spawn and take pot shots. Without zoom it wouldn't happen. So, for gameplay reasons, it'd be better without zoom, regardless of what you can see in real life.

The only way I've seen the map won is by having a decent SL sitting near their spawn and everyone spawning in at him Bad Company 2 style.


Agreed. The key is getting the correct balance between realism and gameplay. For me it's wide of the mark right now.
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Pixel sniping in RO2 will be MUCH harder then in RO1 due to the extreme range.

People take pot shots because they don't actually realize what they are supposed to do yet. There are a ton of players who have never played a game of RO once in their life. That will change once they realize caps>kills.

If you want shorter engagement distances that's fine, but in a game that prides itself on realistic gunplay you'd expect realistic engagement distances. There are plenty of shooters that have shallow engagement distances where they for some reason have snipers galore in maps only 100 meters across.

You think it'd be better without zoom? I disagree. This has nothing to do with balance but personal taste. I'd rather have a harder game where you know riflemen are actively trying to killing you all the time. People will learn to love the crouch and prone key.
 
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#47
mechanicalDR said:
There are plenty of shooters that have shallow engagement distances where they for some reason have snipers galore in maps only 100 meters across.
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Ah the good old days of thinking I was pro with a sniper rifle in CoD WaW :D. I must have only been like 13 years old. Then I grew older and realized that you could easily get SMG kills in real life at the ranges where I was using a sniper rifle.

Thank G-d I was never a quick scoper though. I knew people at school who thought they were so cool for doing that.
 
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#48
Have to say I'm not afraid of change

But the Zoom definately makes fallen much more campey, as its so much harder to advance, where as you used to be able to use the side to advance, as rifles had a job to spot you over the other side of the map thats now fairly easy, all you had to worry about was snipers.

So unless maps are going to be much much bigger than fallen, this will impact on game play big time
 
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#49
babokitty said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnumGDSQpas
I still don't understand why if something looks 200m away onscreen (without zoom), it can't be said to be 200m ingame.
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Does looking through a camera lens and zooming in make the distance between you and the object you are looking and shorter? Of course not. For the same reason, we can't just say it's 200m in game if it looks like 200m on screen.
 
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#50
If a rifleman can zoom and see further while stationary in ironsights, isn't that an advantage against the rifleman who is avancing and can see less further than his stationary foe?!

The defender already has the advantage of being prone and dug in etc
Then given another advantage by being able to be zoomed in.

For the attacker to zoom in he will have to be moving in ironsights, which is very slow and clumsy.

Both opponents should be able to see the same distances whether stationary or moving.

Sorry but it isn't balanced, it gives too many advantages to the defender.
 
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#52
StardogChampion said:
It does mean you're more likely to get a hit, because you're able to judge the shot better + you get a steadier weapon from holding your breath, regardless of having the same bullet-drop issues, etc.
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No, it's not the "same" bullet drop issues. There is more everything - more drop, more travel time, more inaccuracy. Those were already there, yes, but they also weren't nearly as great. There is effectively less in your control when you try and shoot someone the greater the range. Guess what, if your target moves unexpectedly at 150m, you are going to miss. At 75m, there is significantly less time where the target could luckily dodge the bullet.

Seeing a target doesn't mean you can actually hit a target. Heck, I can see the little Recon Plane, doesn't mean I've got a chance to hit it with a Mosin first shot. Or second. Or any shot.

You can see the target better, that is it.
 
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#53
gyps said:
Have to say I'm not afraid of change

But the Zoom definitely makes fallen much more campy, as its so much harder to advance, where as you used to be able to use the side to advance, as rifles had a job to spot you over the other side of the map that's now fairly easy, all you had to worry about was snipers.

So unless maps are going to be much much bigger than fallen, this will impact on game play big time
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...or, and don't quote me on this, the LMG could suppress the riflemen locations? The sniper could cover the LMG from other snipers? The SMGs could close the gaps on the flanks of the enemy and allow time for their riflemen to set up a new base of fire? Artillery could be called in to suppress and disrupt the base of fire of the enemy line (not everything lethal in war is used to kill directly).

Basically. There are real tactics, that work, to counter almost every type of assault/defense presented in this game. Getting your team to adopt them might be a struggle, but it shouldn't force the game into only 1km maps.

-Paas
 
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#54
Paas said:
...or, and don't quote me on this, the LMG could suppress the riflemen locations? The sniper could cover the LMG from other snipers? The SMGs could close the gaps on the flanks of the enemy and allow time for their riflemen to set up a new base of fire? Artillery could be called in to suppress and disrupt the base of fire of the enemy line (not everything lethal in war is used to kill directly).

Basically. There are real tactics, that work, to counter almost every type of assault/defense presented in this game. Getting your team to adopt them might be a struggle, but it shouldn't force the game into only 1km maps.

-Paas
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That's a ridiculous proposition! Everyone knows the best way to fight is to have the riflemen charge the enemy positions :p.
 
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#55
Bowcaster said:
Wrong. RO was is and always will be a realistic game. The developers have even said so. There're not trying to change the game by adding in a new feature that you don't like, you are trying to keep it unrealistic, whereas most people want this game to be realistic. If you don't like the game, find another game, don't try to change this one.

Realism = balance.

You change one thing to make it more "balanced" it ends up upsetting something else. Then you try changing that to make it more "balanced" and it upsets something else. Thus CoD was born.

Stalingrad was a bloody battle that lasted more months in a seeming stalemate. That seems pretty balanced on its own doesn't it?
Click to expand...
Then why don't you complain about the zoom (humanly impossible) and spawning near a squad leader (again, impossible). You can't say you want it realistic then ignore anything as unrealistic as those.

It's closer to CoD now than RO1 and the RO UT Mod were.

No, it's not the "same" bullet drop issues. There is more everything - more drop, more travel time, more inaccuracy. Those were already there, yes, but they also weren't nearly as great. There is effectively less in your control when you try and shoot someone the greater the range. Guess what, if your target moves unexpectedly at 150m, you are going to miss. At 75m, there is significantly less time where the target could luckily dodge the bullet.
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I was talking about the same range, zoomed and unzoomed.
 
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#56
StardogChampion said:
Then why don't you complain about the zoom (humanly impossible) and spawning near a squad leader (again, impossible). You can't say you want it realistic then ignore anything as unrealistic as those.

It's closer to CoD now than RO1 and the RO UT Mod were.
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It has been explained many times that the zoom is more realistic than not having it. If a target looks like about the size of my thumb at 300 meters, then he should look the same size in game. I shouldn't have to go pixel hunting for a target that's only 300 meters away!

The zoom is used to compensate for the handicap of using a monitor that is smaller than your vision. The only way to make it so the zoom is not realistic is if you had a 3D TV in the shape of a sphere that you stick around your head.

Spawning at all is impossible in real life, and I do prefer no respawn gametypes. And we shall see in about an hour when the update hits if you can spawn on SL in hardcore.
 
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#57
Mutators will be introduced to remove the zoom.

In the mean time, we asked for a realistic WWII shooter, and that's what we got. The unrealistic tactics of RO1 are going to be on the way out. Now we're going to have to learn how to fight like the actual soldiers did back then. Crossing open terrain within 300m of the enemy is very dangerous, and we're going to have to learn to respect the rifle a lot more than we did in RO1.

Frankly, I love it. It plays a lot better than RO1's sluggish plodding and it's a lot more intense when you know that those rifle shots actually stand a chance of taking you out if you don't dive for cover.
 
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#58
StardogChampion said:
I was talking about the same range, zoomed and unzoomed.
Click to expand...

But that is not what the OP is getting at.

He's saying it really changes nothing, because now the action takes place 2x further out or so because you have 2x more zoom (just using nice numbers here). In close it makes it easier, yes, but that isn't what the OP is getting at.

On a side bar - some are paranoid about CoD... Yet when there is more realism in engagement range, we can't have that, now can we? Nonsense, we must have closer battles because that is RO1, long range is CoD. :p;)

Seriously, we are complaining about a map consisting of a large open space being campy and insta death in the open areas. Sounds a lot like WWI where everyone "camped" in the trenches and pretty much anyone who hit no man's land was no longer living.
 
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#59
Paas said:
...or, and don't quote me on this, the LMG could suppress the riflemen locations? The sniper could cover the LMG from other snipers? The SMGs could close the gaps on the flanks of the enemy and allow time for their riflemen to set up a new base of fire? Artillery could be called in to suppress and disrupt the base of fire of the enemy line (not everything lethal in war is used to kill directly).

Basically. There are real tactics, that work, to counter almost every type of assault/defense presented in this game. Getting your team to adopt them might be a struggle, but it shouldn't force the game into only 1km maps.

-Paas
Click to expand...

The easiest way to illustrate this is with an example.

Say in RO1, pixel hunting ranges were 200m. Given your opponent is a bum rusher, he can close the distance between you and he in 40 seconds. In those 40 seconds, he'll pop in and out of the terrain giving you a few shots at him. Let's say at 200m, 150m, 100, and 50m.

In RO2, let's say pixel hunting ranges are 400m. With the x2 sprint and x2 stamina, your opponent will still close that distance in 40 seconds, and everytime he pops in and out of the terrain, he looks pretty much the same as RO1 at 400m, 300m, 200m, and 100m.

Net tactical results are the same. Net gameplay results are a minus because the zoom creates that asymmetric scale effect.

LOL, I see TWI released a bunch of new "Apartments" style CQB maps. I wonder why...
 
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#60
babokitty said:
The easiest way to illustrate this is with an example.

Say in RO1, pixel hunting ranges were 200m. Given your opponent is a bum rusher, he can close the distance between you and he in 40 seconds. In those 40 seconds, he'll pop in and out of the terrain giving you a few shots at him. Let's say at 200m, 150m, 100, and 50m.

In RO2, let's say pixel hunting ranges are 400m. With the x2 sprint and x2 stamina, your opponent will still close that distance in 40 seconds, and everytime he pops in and out of the terrain, he looks pretty much the same as RO1 at 400m, 300m, 200m, and 100m.

Net tactical results are the same. Net gameplay results are a minus because the zoom creates that asymmetric scale effect.

LOL, I see TWI released a bunch of new "Apartments" style CQB maps. I wonder why...
Click to expand...

You didnt read my last 2 posts did you? I suggest you do so.
 
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