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Old 03-13-2013, 05:27 PM
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Default Everyone loves a good debate... PC Gamer Article

... so here is the kickoff for one, from a discussion between Evan Lahti of PC Gamer and our own John Gibson, while Evan was out here for a look at Rising Storm:

http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/03/13/ca...a-2-interview/

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Old 03-13-2013, 05:48 PM
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I think that Cod is a skill based shooter but that there is just too much murk around the game. For me games these days just try to cram in way too much into the game, and in the end the total balance and cohesion gets the long end.

Games rather add 3 more features, than actually continuing to work and refine what they have.

The old Quake & UT games had limited functions and abilities, but every single function and weapon was nearly balanced into perfection. Which meant that with little knowledge you could already get close to knowing all there is, at what point the only differentiation factor is skill. A quake game is actually easier to get into than for instance a cod game.

I think RO2 fell prey to the same thing in a sense. RO2 got a lot of nice things on the feature list, but a lot of those sadly are still at a point that you could remove them and nobody would notice. (think squad system for instance).

So for me I think too many games are trying to create feature lists that are as long as possible. While in the process start to forget that actually every single thing added needs to have a reason within the same universe.

A big danger of for instance RPG like systems is the effect that older players that are better than newer players, will get the better goodies as well. Making it often in games that not necessarily the best player will come out at the top, but rather the player that played the game for the most hours will come out at top.

I've always been a fan of simple games, however every single feature in my opinion should be learnable and controllable by the user. Recoil - allow people to learn it, Suppression/Sway - allow people to compensate it.

I can understand as well that any form of delay be it in starting to move or putting up iron sights can feel frustrating to players. The primary reason being it gives you a brief moment where you are not in control of your character any more.
However in case of say RO after a while you find out, that sometimes inherently negative things such as delays, can actually generate an overall gameplay that generates a better experience. With the difficulty of RO being that its in a fine place inbetween the games aiming at simulation like the Arma series and the more Arcade shooters.

Personally I always liked the game for the similarity of RO compared to instagib in terms of fatality, as well as the ability to control all sorts of assets like sway and recoil. However although RO2 got great additions, in terms of simplicity, and competitiveness I would probably still say that the RO mod before 3.0 was my favourite incarnation.
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Old 03-13-2013, 05:59 PM
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I concur with what Zetsumei said: well worked-out, deep gameplay is the most important thing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramm
but I’m not gonna try to make a game that tries to be Call of Duty at the expense of having fun gameplay that actually has depth.
I really hope so. And I hope that includes not putting a progression system in a RO game anymore.
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Old 03-13-2013, 06:22 PM
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i played it once and i must say, it's realy hardcore game
i agree with everything that John Gibson said! that's dirty true.
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Old 03-13-2013, 06:27 PM
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Meh, I still have fun in-game, feature bloat or no feature bloat.

Faults aside, Red Orchestra 2 is still one of the best MP shooters out there. It's certainly the one I put the most time in.

The start was a little rocky, but it sounds like Tripwire now knows that a harsh, unforgiving, realistic feel is what makes their game stand out.

Then again, I guess I'm from the other side of the COD-to-clunky spectrum... anything faster-paced than Classic weapons handling is too fast for me. That healthy bit of sway and a bit of a delay to iron sights is what keeps me in love with the game.
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Old 03-13-2013, 06:35 PM
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Action mode aside though, let's be fair on saying there are definitely some inconsistencies with his game and his argument.

Case in point the emphasis on momentum and speed while maintaining the ability to sprint full speed up and down stairs, or the system that rewards players not for their skill, but for how long they use their weapon and progress it. It was fine for Killing Floor because it was a team-based game against AI, but RO2 isn't that concept.

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Old 03-13-2013, 07:01 PM
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Old 03-13-2013, 07:11 PM
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I agree completely. And reading from the comments on the article, so does everyone else. I'm glad to see there are many other like-minded gamers.

I see the word is out now that Evan went over to try out Rising Storm, and I hope to see some positive remarks relating to the game. I feel that Rising Storm has a wider appeal than RO2 because of the pretty setting, the weapon variety, and playing as Americans of course...
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Old 03-13-2013, 08:04 PM
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Is this supposed to be irony?

You guys basically took the CoD formula and applied it to Red Orchestra. Ruining a unique game and community in the progress. Now you're saying "CoD has ruined a generation" ? Is this a joke?

I can't believe how two-faced TWI has become. Not counting that this is just a cheap advertisement attempt for Rising Storm, trying to get attention by throwing mud at mainstream games.
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Old 03-13-2013, 08:32 PM
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Y
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rak View Post
Is this supposed to be irony?

You guys basically took the CoD formula and applied it to Red Orchestra. Ruining a unique game and community in the progress. Now you're saying "CoD has ruined a generation" ? Is this a joke?

I can't believe how two-faced TWI has become. Not counting that this is just a cheap advertisement attempt for Rising Storm, trying to get attention by throwing mud at mainstream games.
I know, I was like isn't that the game style they went after with the sequel. Maybe they finally realized they should stick with their original take on a first person shooter, but I doubt it. Like you said, it's more of marketing scheme like what they did when they released ro2.
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Old 03-13-2013, 08:42 PM
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Is this supposed to be irony?
My thoughts. Appearently he still doesn't really realize that a lot of the competitive guys left the community because they cod-ified the gameplay and lowered the skill ceiling to a ridculous level. Fair enough, he provided some good laughs.
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Old 03-13-2013, 09:10 PM
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Hmmm,

To be a small fish in a big (COD'ish) pond

- or -

To be the big fish in a smaller (Realism) pond.

--------------------------------------------------

For the most part, I agree with what John has said in the article. The makers of COD have created a pretty but dumbed down game that the masses have somehow flocked to. They play it because of the commercials, because its easy, because all their other friends play it, whatever and that is ok if that's what you like. But it has dumbed down what people expect and what they think a game should play like and that is a shame because it seems to confuse a lot of dullards who can't think outside the box about how to play another game.

As for the rest, I go back to my pond statement and you can make of it what you will.
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Old 03-13-2013, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rak View Post
Is this supposed to be irony?

You guys basically took the CoD formula and applied it to Red Orchestra. Ruining a unique game and community in the progress. Now you're saying "CoD has ruined a generation" ? Is this a joke?

I can't believe how two-faced TWI has become. Not counting that this is just a cheap advertisement attempt for Rising Storm, trying to get attention by throwing mud at mainstream games.
Hahaha, absolutely right. Leave the irony and sarcasm to us Germans. We are better at it.

I read the interview and all I can do is *facepalm*. Good luck with Rising Storm!
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Old 03-13-2013, 09:35 PM
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To be fair to part of the gaming crowd, I should probably also point out that, for consoles, 4-person split screen is probably one reason why Halo and COD games sell so well... and why I'll take an hour and blow off some steam by hunting down my roommates in Black Ops 2 or Halo 4 on the Xbox every once in a while... even if my preference is unquestionably biased towards less pedestrian games.

It DOES help when a friend who doesn't game much comes over and is still able to scavenge a few kills and doesn't feel too bad about themselves.

Exclusively PC gamers have no such excuses, though.
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Old 03-13-2013, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by =GG= Mr Moe View Post
Hmmm,

To be a small fish in a big (COD'ish) pond

- or -

To be the big fish in a smaller (Realism) pond.
This really.

Frankly, I don't think TWI making RO2 have a separate action mode was that great an idea. I think it's damn good of them to make the effort to try appeal to different kinds of players, but I don't believe it being worthwhile. If TWI did RO2 as classic mode to begin with, we'd probably have new tanks and transports by now, no? The "easy mode" is like a throwaway feature.

RO2 is in a niche of its own, and it's best to keep it that way. That's why it was successful in the first place, because it filled one attractive niche. And it's a niche that's not for everyone. And that's okay. It's the same reason why I don't play The Sims.

However, it's smart to make the game accessible. RO1 was clunky and tough to get into (though it was wholly rewarding) and some key things just weren't explained very well to new players. RO1's formula as a game is totally fine, it's just the difficulty of understanding it at first and some of the game's limitations/old tech that really needed to be improved.

But if the spoon-feeding FPS games out there didn't exist in the first place to become the popular thing, I think TWI would be better off when it came to appealing to the playerbase as they wouldn't have had to try attracting them. The initial release could have went down better in that regard, too.

But yes, if it came down to a vote, I'd vote that TWI should become the big fish in a new pond. Not a little fish in the other pond. I wanna see more games with the complexity and the rewarding experience of RO and KF, I'd like developers elsewhere someday say "hey, these guys called Tripwire are really raking it in by filling niches instead of appealing to the lowest common denominator, let's try it out ourselves."

It'd be like the 90s again, but with new technology.
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Old 03-13-2013, 09:38 PM
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I hope they ditched the whole idea of separate modes with Rising Storm. I don't want a watered down version as well. He mentions how Dota is hardcore, well imagine how Dota players would feel with an "accessible" mode for newbies inbuilt. The learning curve in Dota is huge, yet what is the most played game on Steam now by like a factor of 5? There are ways to make games more accessible without trashing the gameplay

When I play a game I want to have THE game, not something with all sorts of different iterations of it. There should be a sense of togetherness and identity, not like its modded out of the box. Classic, realism and Action just splits up the community and spoils the overall brand. Is it a hardcore shooter? Is it a realism game? Is it a cod clone?

When people learn games they need to learn them as they're played at a competitive level. They need to be able to hop on a server and play "Rising Storm", not worry about which version it is, or if the version they got good at is even going to have a competitive scene. Splitting up the playerbase for a smaller game is also a really bad idea. Clans won't play each other and servers won't fill up as easily (people only want to play a specific type of server and reject the others). Its also very confusing for new players

Anyway, rant over. Hope Rising Storm feels like an RO game or that it captures my interest as a tactical/realism based FPS. Let CoD players play CoD. If they want to play something different they can try something different, but don't copy it just because its popular.
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Old 03-13-2013, 09:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by melipone View Post
I hope they ditched the whole idea of separate modes with Rising Storm.
We should actually be happy that there are different gamemodes that allow EVERYONE to play the game THEIR way. And community split up? What are you talking about? Since when is "having a choice" a bad thing?

/irony off
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Old 03-13-2013, 09:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by melipone View Post
I hope they ditched the whole idea of separate modes with Rising Storm. I don't want a watered down version as well. He mentions how Dota is hardcore, well imagine how Dota players would feel with an "accessible" mode for newbies inbuilt. The learning curve in Dota is huge, yet what is the most played game on Steam now by like a factor of 5? There are ways to make games more accessible without trashing the gameplay

When I play a game I want to have THE game, not something with all sorts of different iterations of it. There should be a sense of togetherness and identity, not like its modded out of the box. Classic, realism and Action just splits up the community and spoils the overall brand. Is it a hardcore shooter? Is it a realism game? Is it a cod clone?

When people learn games they need to learn them as they're played at a competitive level. They need to be able to hop on a server and play "Rising Storm", not worry about which version it is, or if the version they got good at is even going to have a competitive scene. Splitting up the playerbase for a smaller game is also a really bad idea. Clans won't play each other and servers won't fill up as easily (people only want to play a specific type of server and reject the others). Its also very confusing for new players

Anyway, rant over. Hope Rising Storm feels like an RO game or that it captures my interest as a tactical/realism based FPS. Let CoD players play CoD. If they want to play something different they can try something different, but don't copy it just because its popular.
I do agree with your points, though I will mention that DotA (not 2) did have easy mode. I can understand game modes that provide different ways to play the same game (eg CTF, TDM, etc) but modes of difficulty will indeed always skew the community.
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Old 03-13-2013, 10:35 PM
Dr. Peter Venkman Dr. Peter Venkman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rak View Post
Is this supposed to be irony?

You guys basically took the CoD formula and applied it to Red Orchestra. Ruining a unique game and community in the progress. Now you're saying "CoD has ruined a generation" ? Is this a joke?

I can't believe how two-faced TWI has become. Not counting that this is just a cheap advertisement attempt for Rising Storm, trying to get attention by throwing mud at mainstream games.
Yeah. I thought it was pathetic.
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Old 03-14-2013, 12:19 AM
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I hope they just launch RS with just true RO mode and no gimmicks. Its all the small population of ro2 plays now anyway.
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