Orlovka - September 1942

Commissar{SK} · #1 05-25-2006, 10:39 PM

I'm thinking about starting work on a map and I've come up with the idea of making a map based the village of Orlovka, a few miles north of Stalingrad. Would anyone happen to know of any sources (pictures?) that might be helpful to get an idea of the layout and perhaps the equipment available to both sides? Right now I'm thinking of a basic attack/defend map with a PTRD for the defenders and a halftrack for the attackers.

Any help would be appreciated.

Nestor Makhno · #2 05-26-2006, 04:07 PM

If you know anyone with the game IL-2 - I seem to remember that that has a hugely detailed map of the Stalingrad area in it - find someone who has the game and ask them to find the area you want and send you a screenie.

I have say though that the town on the opposite bank at the north end of Stalingrad (in IL-2 that is) looked suspiciously like Volzhskiy, which was built in about 1972 or something, so it may not be amazing historical accuracy.

7thGuardsTankDiv · #3 05-27-2006, 02:17 AM

And La 7 is the best fighter of ww2

Nestor Makhno · #4 05-27-2006, 03:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by *7GA* Nestor Makhno

I have say though that the town on the opposite bank at the north end of Stalingrad (in IL-2 that is) looked suspiciously like Volzhskiy, which was built in about 1972 or something, so it may not be amazing historical accuracy.

I just reinstalled IL-2 and had a look and the map they use is based on a modern one. The only landmark on it where Orlovka should be is called Vodostroy - possibly near where modern day Vodootstoy is. It's just generic random-generated terrain anyway.

So a blank there I'm afraid.

Here's a modern map showing that orlovka is still around, though I can't say I remember it from my time there. That part of Volgograd though has great terrain - loads of fairly sharp gorges (about 20 metres deep) and almost entirley covered in dachas.

Here's an old map showing that in and around Orlovka there was a battle between the 282 Rifle reg't and (or maybe 'of') the 10th NKVD div. against what looks like some elements of the 14th Pzr Korps - mostly the 389th Inf. Div.

Britney Federline · #5 05-27-2006, 08:07 AM

I like the looks of the old map--lot's of nifty options, I think. Will you focus on one of the german pushes into the Soviet defense? Or one of those areas where the Soviet counterattack was relatively close to one of these attacks?

Anyway, it looks like you can get the street layout, and the hill layout from that map. What about the river? Can we have boat races?

qwe1234 · #6 05-27-2006, 08:57 AM

how do u post pictures??

Nestor Makhno · #7 05-27-2006, 10:58 AM

When you post a reply (or edit one of your own posts) there is a box underneath called 'additional options' which has a 'manage atachments' button for uploading and stuff.

But maybe you have to have posted enough to be a member rather than junior member to get this - I never tried until I had done about 50 posts.

If that's the case just upload it somewhere else and post the link.

Nestor Makhno · #8 05-27-2006, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Britney Federline

I like the looks of the old map--lot's of nifty options, I think. Will you focus on one of the german pushes into the Soviet defense?

Sorry - I keep forgetting about people not reading Russian. That is a map of the whole of Stalingrad - the scale is far too big to map it in RO. The river is the Volga - at that point it's a couple of miles wide.

Orlovka is the little village in the bulge jutting out just NW of the north tip of the city.

[TW]Wilsonam · #9 05-27-2006, 12:46 PM

I have the Soviet topo map series. The one you want (at 1:100,000) is M-38-114. Survey date is 1942, reprinted 1963, with the names "modernised" - so the city has become Volgograd. Orlovka is still there, small place, quick glance says it is in the bottom of a Balka

Orlovka is about 8 Km WNW of our old friend Spartakovka (remember that one from the mod days??)

Commissar{SK} · #10 05-27-2006, 02:25 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Britney Federline

I like the looks of the old map--lot's of nifty options, I think. Will you focus on one of the german pushes into the Soviet defense? Or one of those areas where the Soviet counterattack was relatively close to one of these attacks?

Anyway, it looks like you can get the street layout, and the hill layout from that map. What about the river? Can we have boat races?

I think I'll probably go with the former, with halftrack mounted Germans moving into the village with a couple of objectives for them to capture and possibly a light tank for support.

Well I got the idea from Beevor's book Stalingrad (bottom of page 162 in the paperback version), where he kind of described the September 29th assault of the 389th ID and 60th Motorized ID on Orlovka. My impression is that the outnumbered and outgunned Russians put up a tenacious defense so it could make for an interesting map. The maps in the book are pretty good, but the closeup of the city of Stalingrad just shows Orlovka as just a solid block.

Thanks for that Russian map Nestor Makhno, its the best I've found of the area so far (although unfortunately I can't read cyrillic - does the blue arrow mean Soviet troops moving in to protect Orlovka, or perhaps the 60th MID moving in from the northeast, or is it of some other time period altogeaher?).

I was able to find the general area with Google Maps[/FONT][FONT=Verdana], but it seems unclear to me where Orlovka would be.
[/FONT]http://www.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en...86674&t=k&om=1
[FONT=Verdana]
Thanks Wilsonam, I'll have to find a way to get that Soviet topographical map.
[/FONT]

[TW]Wilsonam · #11 05-27-2006, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Commissar{SK}

[FONT=Verdana]
[/FONT][FONT=Verdana]Thanks Wilsonam, I'll have to find a way to get that Soviet topographical map.
[/FONT]

You could always give me an email address to send a scan to, seeing it is scanned

Just under 2Mb...

Commissar{SK} · #12 05-27-2006, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by [RO]Wilsonam

You could always give me an email address to send a scan to, seeing it is scanned

Just under 2Mb...

Awesome, PM sent.

[TW]Wilsonam · #13 05-27-2006, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Commissar{SK}

Awesome, PM sent.

I know I am, email sent.

Commissar{SK} · #14 05-27-2006, 10:36 PM

Well thanks to the maps I have a good idea of the street layout. Now I just need to figure out the architecture of the buildings. Judging by their size I'd assume they would be a bit more advanced than dirt floor shacks.

Would anyone have any photos - pre, post or during the war?

Tak · #15 05-28-2006, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by [RO]Wilsonam

You could always give me an email address to send a scan to, seeing it is scanned

Just under 2Mb...

TripWire 4-evah. Seriously. I can't remember the last time I've seen a dev team so involved in the community, other than mods. I know, I've said it a lot, but little stuff like that just seals the deal.

Heart TW!

[5.SS] Hirner · #16 05-28-2006, 01:54 AM

gj TW and had fun playing on our server today Tak. Even though my driving skills are awesome and i sucked on that map, lol.

Nestor Makhno · #17 05-29-2006, 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Commissar{SK}

[FONT=Verdana]

Thanks for that Russian map Nestor Makhno, its the best I've found of the area so far (although unfortunately I can't read cyrillic - does the blue arrow mean Soviet troops moving in to protect Orlovka, or perhaps the 60th MID moving in from the northeast, or is it of some other time period altogeaher?).

[/FONT]

I don't know if Wilsonam's map clarifies the matter, but the blue arrows are the axis assaults.

A balka is, like I said, a huge gorge - there are a network of these throughout the region - they are between 10 and 20 meters deep at the bottom and between 20 and 50 metres wide. They can often be too steep to climb the sides but, unlike the side cut in Kaukasus (which resembles a narrower version of a balka but going up a hill), they are usually fairly level if you follow along the course of the waterbed. In September they would be pretty much dry though.

Quite how a full-fledged village would be in one of these escapes me, from the map I provided it is clear that the village itself is just north of the balka of the Orlovno river, although there are many 'tributary' balki in the area.

One thing to all historians, mappers and particulalrly Antony Beevor, whose work is otherwise exemplary.

IT IS NOT CALLED 'SPARTAKOVKA'!!!

If you get on a bus in Volgograd and ask for Spartakovka they won't know WTF you are talking about.

IT IS SPARTANOVKA,

...always has been, always will be.

Ask a Russian speaker to check the map, if you don't believe me.

The reason this mtyh has perpetuated is that beevor prolly used the map I have posted where the N/K is a bit obscured. But, having lived near there for 3 years I can tell you it is a N.

[TW]Wilsonam · #18 05-29-2006, 11:17 AM

Well, that made me look again. The deeply strange thing is - the 1937 version of the map (which I used for the old mod level) has Spartakovka with a "K". So do some of the relevant German period maps (not that they are always too reliable).

However, as you correctly point out - everything post-war has Spartanovka with an "H". This includes the Soviet map I sent out. Not sure what is going on here - was it one of those places renamed after the war??

As to the terrain - I'm just going off the map

I've never been there! Get Comm to post the relevant area and someone who has more time than me can comment on the contour lines