Berzerker update suggestion

[Qon]

Originally Posted by Ajk1230

You want one thing, I want another. You can't please everyone.

Well since you don't even PLAY zerk, why argument for lower speed?
As long as they aren't OP, how can 30% running speed for zerks annoy you?

Originally Posted by Ajk1230

"Honestly, who cares about whats fun and boring. Yes, I want the game to be fun, but i also want the game to be balanced. Whatever has to be done to balance berserker, m99, etc. is fine with me."

So if that doesn't mean you don't care, what does it mean? If you only care about balance, as you said, then you can't say it's important for you that the running speed is nerfed. Your two statements contradict each other, because running speed bonus doesn't have to be nerfed to make zerk balanced.

Originally Posted by Ajk1230

Its very simple though. Their damage resistance and speed bonus is just too high. I would love to see them go back to 30% and 20%. Its not a matter of nerfing one or the other.
They both could be nerfed.

Yea they could possibly be, but you just want to nerf zerk because you dislike the perk, not because of balance issues. If it was balance issues that concerned you then you would answer the question you just quoted instead of repeating that speed should be nerfed.

[Ajk1230]

Originally Posted by Qon

Well since you don't even PLAY zerk, why argument for lower speed?
As long as they aren't OP, how can 30% running speed for zerks annoy you?

So if that doesn't mean you don't care, what does it mean? If you only care about balance, as you said, then you can't say it's important for you that the running speed is nerfed. Your two statements contradict each other, because running speed bonus doesn't have to be nerfed to make zerk balanced.


Yea they could possibly be, but you just want to nerf zerk because you dislike the perk, not because of balance issues. If it was balance issues that concerned you then you would answer the question you just quoted instead of repeating that speed should be nerfed.

What are you talking about? Of course i think berserker is OP, i wouldn't be arguing if i didn't. I dont think it needs a nerf because i dislike it. I dislike it because its easy and OP.

Berserker is OP, thats why it needs to be nerfed. I never said the nerf HAD to be speed. I only think nerfing speed would be the best option.

[Althamus]

You're correct, running speed doesn't need to be nerfed to stop zerkers from being OP, but it's by far and the best way.
One of the main reasons zerkers are OP atm is that they can run the heck away from everything atm if they're in trouble. Even if they're on 50 HPs and 15/15, they can still outrun any non-raging zed bar stalkers (who are no threat if they keep moving). This means if he ever gets in trouble, assuming he's got a train of most of the zeds behind him, he can just run the heck away from everything and heal at his leisure when everyone else would get cut down due to slow movement speed.
In addition, I'd like to make zerkers so that it is an option to camp with them, and removing their damage resistance while keeping them super-fast would really kinda make them even harder to camp with.

Although I agree with Qon on one thing. Medics are tanks. Berserkers shouldn't be tanks. They can be better at taking damage than other people, but that shouldn't be one of their core purposes.

Being able to outrun everything except a raging scrake and fleshpound is challenging?
I don't say it's challenging to run away, I don't play like that.

I believe you, but a lot of people do play like that. Zerker is probably the only class you can solo HoE and never go above 50% HPs or take armour and still win a game (as long as you don't get bad luck spawns) due to the fact you can keep almost everything at arms length and 9mm it to death.

[TheMutant]

I also love to play as berzerker, but only on appropriate maps.
Sarcasm on:
Camping on some maps is ridiculously easy if you know the right spot. Let's nerf all the perks so camping is impossible!
Sarcasm off.

Seriously dudes, kiting should always stay a real tactic that depends on which map you play! I love to choose between defending or kiting and I don't think that the solution lays in just lowering the zerk's speed bonus.
Furthermore, why is the ability of outrunning fleshpounds such a big deal to you? Imo, this is what a berserker is meant to be, fast and strong. I don't like the idea to make another tanking-only class beside the medic.
This would fully destroy the kiting tactic and lead to a boring camping-only game where zerk is either an unused perk or used as tanking only -> thus camping will be too easy and we have to make another thread to discuss the new problem.

Lowering the damage output? This makes the perk quite useless against the big zeds and we have a new perk for trash zeds, that would hardly be chosen as commando is better here.

On the other hand, it's true that the berserker is indeed an autonomous perk as one can kill every zed without problems. This big advantage combined with the damage resistance is overpowered.
So, for instance, make fleshpound kiting harder (no full rage timer reset) would remove this autonomy. Zerks now have to rely on other teammates to help out or take over fps.
Moreover, lowering the resistance would also be a good step to balance that perk. This also increases the skill you need to play the class.

[Amber Glass]

Originally Posted by TheMutant

I also love to play as berzerker, but only on appropriate maps.
Sarcasm on:
Camping on some maps is ridiculously easy if you know the right spot. Let's nerf all the perks so camping is impossible!
Sarcasm off.

Seriously dudes, kiting should always stay a real tactic that depends on which map you play! I love to choose between defending or kiting and I don't think that the solution lays in just lowering the zerk's speed bonus.
Furthermore, why is the ability of outrunning fleshpounds such a big deal to you? Imo, this is what a berserker is meant to be, fast and strong. I don't like the idea to make another tanking-only class beside the medic.
This would fully destroy the kiting tactic and lead to a boring camping-only game where zerk is either an unused perk or used as tanking only -> thus camping will be too easy and we have to make another thread to discuss the new problem.

Lowering the damage output? This makes the perk quite useless against the big zeds and we have a new perk for trash zeds, that would hardly be chosen as commando is better here.

On the other hand, it's true that the berserker is indeed an autonomous perk as one can kill every zed without problems. This big advantage combined with the damage resistance is overpowered.
So, for instance, make fleshpound kiting harder (no full rage timer reset) would remove this autonomy. Zerks now have to rely on other teammates to help out or take over fps.
Moreover, lowering the resistance would also be a good step to balance that perk. This also increases the skill you need to play the class.

how exactly would nerfing zerks speed eliminate the tactic of kiting?

[fang_fan_420_w33dERRDAY]

Why do people advocate berserker nerfs in the interest of "keeping the game challenging" when by definition Killing Floor is a casual game? It's only the people who have reached the skill ceiling that advocate these nerfs to begin with. Where is the logic?

[Amber Glass]

uhh people have been advocating berserker nerfs since his outrageous buff to ENCOURAGE TEAM PLAY since killing floor is a cooperative game, and most berserkers tend to lone wolf and run off on their own, not to mention it is the most unbalanced perk of the bunch, though this is perhaps now rivaled by sharpshooter since the latest update.

[DarkFalz]

Originally Posted by Amber Glass

how exactly would nerfing zerks speed eliminate the tactic of kiting?

Exactly. I've done kiting games on HoE as a level 4 Berserker which only has a 20% movement speed bonus (what I think it should be changed to). It's perfectly doable.

[fang_fan_420_w33dERRDAY]

Originally Posted by Amber Glass

to ENCOURAGE TEAM PLAY

Team-play is a choice. You can't nerf a class until its only practical use becomes "team-play", because that decision is up to the player.

[CandleJack]

Originally Posted by Amber Glass

uhh people have been advocating berserker nerfs since his outrageous buff to ENCOURAGE TEAM PLAY since killing floor is a cooperative game, and most berserkers tend to lone wolf and run off on their own, not to mention it is the most unbalanced perk of the bunch, though this is perhaps now rivaled by sharpshooter since the latest update.

And Support.

So now 3/7 perks are unbalanced you say?

[fang_fan_420_w33dERRDAY]

Originally Posted by CandleJack

And Support.

So now 3/7 perks are unbalanced you say?

I haven't posted here much but I've been lurking for a while. From what I've seen, it's simply typical behavior for people to bash zerk and every once in a while, saying that the perk needs nerfing. All the while ignoring the fact that the camp classes are much stronger at camping than berserker is at kiting. It's not even about making the game challenging - it's just berserker hate. lol

[CandleJack]

Originally Posted by fang_fan_420_w33dERRDAY

I haven't posted here much but I've been lurking for a while. From what I've seen, it's simply typical behavior for people to bash zerk and every once in a while, saying that the perk needs nerfing. All the while ignoring the fact that the camp classes are much stronger at camping than berserker is at kiting. It's not even about making the game challenging - it's just berserker hate. lol

They also ignore the fact that Firebug isn't anywhere near as popular as Medic on higher difficulties, despite Firebug being a good perk.

It just needs to have the Flamethrower on 4, fix the HL (others have suggested how) and give it some kind of defined role for sui/HoE.

The fact that TWI are slowly addressing each perk is good, but it's bad that they didn't start with the Firebug.

[Spicy]

Originally Posted by CandleJack

The fact that TWI are slowly addressing each perk is good, but it's bad that they didn't start with the Firebug.

Someday.
Someday.

[Amber Glass]

Originally Posted by CandleJack

And Support.

So now 3/7 perks are unbalanced you say?

indeed, but sharp and support both encourage more teamwork than the berserker class, and sharp was balanced fine before this update. i have also mentioned in the past that firebug definitely needs some buffing to bring it in line with the other perks as the DoT leaves much to be desired when the specimens move much quicker.

Originally Posted by fang_fan_420_w33dERRDAY

Team-play is a choice. You can't nerf a class until its only practical use becomes "team-play", because that decision is up to the player.

o rly? a perk shouldn't have to rely on other perks in order to play the game? i guess commando, demolitions, firebug, and medic all need buffs to bring them in line with berserker, support, and sharp, so they can do EVERYTHING, so everyone can run off and do their own thing.

all nerfing berserker would do is make it less desirable to run off and rambo, it wouldn't prevent this, you can do this as any perk, so why are you crusading so hard to keep him in its current state? the general consensus is that berserker is OP, just because you think it shouldn't be nerfed, does that make YOU right, as opposed to many, much more creditable sources, such as undedd jester, scary ghost, and others who actually tested the beta?

while yes being a team player is a choice, if you would rather be a lone wolf rambo, killing floor is not the game for you.

[generic_account]

Originally Posted by Amber Glass

a perk shouldn't have to rely on other perks in order to play the game?

Are you even trying? Where did I say that?

[TheMutant]

Originally Posted by Amber Glass

how exactly would nerfing zerks speed eliminate the tactic of kiting?

If you had read properly you would have seen that I wrote "in JUST lowering...".
After reading the thread so far I feel that the general atmosphere here is to completely remove the speed bonus.
Some awesome hit&run and other tactics may suffer from altering the speed drastically.

Originally Posted by Amber Glass

uhh people have been advocating berserker nerfs since his outrageous buff to ENCOURAGE TEAM PLAY since killing floor is a cooperative game, and most berserkers tend to lone wolf and run off on their own, not to mention it is the most unbalanced perk of the bunch, though this is perhaps now rivaled by sharpshooter since the latest update.

I think everyone has made bad experiences with berserker players, but it's the wrong motivation here to blame the perk for players' behaviours. Please, keep the emotions out of the discussion to get reasonable results.

I don't get why people think that soloing as berzerk is no team-play, this splits the amount of zeds and the rest of the team is relieved. This is only valid if the zerk wants to do so, I know that there are berserkers that don't want to support the team and play the "hero" if the rest of the team has been wiped out. But I also saw soloing sharpshoters with exactly the same attitude.

Running off as berkerz is also a nice feature if used correctly. Firstly, you can take out important tagets before they reach the rest of the team.
Secondly, you can avoid important targets (sirens/husks) forming larger and deadlier groups.
Thirdly, you can get behind large zed amounts quickly and support the team from there.
Finally, you can lure away amounts of zeds or kite away fleshpounds so the team can regroup in order to survive.

So I'm against chaging the berzerker beyond recognition just to make it fit to defending tactics!

[Amber Glass]

running off as berserker doesn't "relieve" the team, it makes the game completely dull and boring for the rest of the players, while the zerk is off kiting all the spawned zeds on the map, leaving a trickle for the rest. the waves drag on slowly as the rest of the team kill a handful of specimens while the zerker is off being rambo. this results in either:

situation A: the zerk is actually competent, and the game drags on slowly, with little for the rest of the team to do

situation B: the zerk is a bad player, and runs back to the team in crit health, bringing his train of sirens, husks, and scrakes right through the team camp, usually resulting in a wipe.

this style of gameplay is selfish, and if this is something you wish to do, go load up a solo game with 5 faked players, don't force the rest of the team to sit through your kiting berserker bull**** if you aren't going to be a team player.

lowering the speed changes nothing tactics wise, only skill wise. it would actually force berserkers to learn to play the class well, instead of being able to make a million dumb mistakes and still finish out the wave.

nerfing the speed would not "change zerk beyond recognition", his old speed and damage resistance was perfectly fine.

[Left 4 Dinner]

OK, Ill make this simple for people


Things to possibly nerf:

• Lower movement speed
• Lower overall damage resistance
• Lower bloat puke resistance
• Lower melee damage
• Lower swing speed
• Remove anti clot-grab

Things to add/buff in place of nerf:

• Increase overall damage resistance
• Increase swing speed
• Increase resistance to bloat's bile (maybe even 100%?)
• Increase melee damage
• Remove fall damage or X% of it (my idea )
• Remove speed-loss when swinging melee weapon
• Faster melee weapon switch

Now that I have that on the table, I'll go and pick what I would like to see used for the zerk in order to balance it.


For level 6 Zerk:
Movement speed = 20%
Remove speed lose from swinging melee weapon
Overall resistance to damage = 30%
Fall damage is halved

or maybe

For level 6 Zerk:
Movement speed = 20%
Remove speed lose from swinging melee weapon
Overall resistance to damage = 30%
Fall damage is halved
Lower swing speed by 10%, but increase melee damage by 10%

Workable?

[TheMutant]

Originally Posted by Amber Glass

[...]
this style of gameplay is selfish, and if this is something you wish to do, go load up a solo game with 5 faked players, don't force the rest of the team to sit through your kiting berserker bull**** if you aren't going to be a team player.
[...]

So, if I understand it correctly then your problem is selfish gameplay. But why do you blame the perk for that? You can destroy teamplay with every perk.
Imagine this scenario on Suburbia (happened to me several times):
Most of the players took a fast class (zerk/medic) but some players did not want to join us and decided to camp. They died early and made the game harder for us. Isn't that selfish too?

Originally Posted by Amber Glass

[...]
lowering the speed changes nothing tactics wise, only skill wise. it would actually force berserkers to learn to play the class well, instead of being able to make a million dumb mistakes and still finish out the wave.
[...]

Lowering the speed may affect some tactics I wrote above and I don't think that a speed bonus of 20% (isn't that the old value?) will stop selfish players from being selfish.

BTT:
Green - A buf here is reasonable
Orange - I agree partially, but it should not be the main issue
Red - Don't nerf it as it is vital, or it's not needed

Originally Posted by Left 4 Dinner

[...]
Things to possibly nerf:

• Lower movement speed
• Lower overall damage resistance
• Lower bloat puke resistance
• Lower melee damage
• Lower swing speed
• Remove anti clot-grab

Things to add/buff in place of nerf:

• Increase overall damage resistance
• Increase swing speed
• Increase resistance to bloat's bile (maybe even 100%?)
• Increase melee damage
• Remove fall damage or X% of it (my idea )
• Remove speed-loss when swinging melee weapon
• Faster melee weapon switch

This is something productive, but i think if you nerf the things in a balanced way you don't need to add new bonuses. But I would like to see harder fleshpound kiting as it is too easy right now.

[Left 4 Dinner]

Originally Posted by TheMutant

BTT:
Green - A buf here is reasonable
Orange - I agree partially, but it should not be the main issue
Red - Don't nerf it as it is vital, or it's not needed
This is something productive, but i think if you nerf the things in a balanced way you don't need to add new bonuses. But I would like to see harder fleshpound kiting as it is too easy right now.

True, but its a start, and if theres one thing that needs to happen right now, is people coming up with proposed stat ideas and numbers, with possible explainations. Theres too much mud slinging around here, and Im afraid the point of this thread was slightly lost in the muck of it all.

With all that said, my view point about the beserker, is that if there is only one of them on a given team, and if the beserker keeps to sticking close to the team and helping with things, like area denial or chopping a path through zeds inorder to make way for the team to move through, then I completly support the beserker, as a whole. However, the 30% is a bit fast, but not having the speed buff at all, would hurt the perk. To me, a modest 20% movement increase is fair enough, because the berserker is great at going ahead of the team, clearing out some zeds that are ahead, thus making it easier for safe travel for players. Also, the only class that should be the fastest, or maybe tied for the fastest, is the medic. The medic is suppose to get to other teammates fast and thus heal them fast aswell. Grant it, medics could kite zeds, but if they get caught by any clot, then it could be disasterous. My final thoughts for the beserker, is that I always thought of him as a perk that would be able to run ahead of players, clear anything that is in its way for the team to safely make it, and to be able to take a few hits from anything, and still keep on ticking.