Tank rumor

[giuseppe443]

Well there was this rumor some time ago on the steam forums that ro2 would get 2 new light tanks the german PzIII and the soviet T-26...
I am the only one how things this to tanks are not even close to be similar or equivalent?
First of all the T-26 has only a frontal armor of 15 mm while the german PzIII has 70mm of frontal armor. The PzIII is way superior then the T-29 in armament, speed and armor. Also both the PzIII and the PzIV could easily get the t-26 with 1 shoot while the T-34 would have some problems with the PzIII.

Well i hope this was only a rumor and we would get tanks that are more even, like the t-28 for the russians and not a OVERPOWERED t-26

[clambo]

There will be a Panzer III and T-60

[giuseppe443]

oh much better

[Clowndoe]

T-70 actually.

T-60 had a 20mm cannon.

There's still a problem though because the T-70 is still outclassed by the Pz. IIIJ, which could almost rumble with a T-34. But I'll leave the thinking to TWI.

[giuseppe443]

Well itsw hard to outclasse the PzIII with out it being the T-34 or the KV1.
But if they dont put the PzIII N that had the long 75mm cannon it ok. I think they have to chose between the PzIII J,J/1,L,M,N

[Cpt-Praxius]

Funny, I thought it was the Panzer III and the T-70??

The T-70 replaced the T-60 around 1941-42

[Moyako]

We need an IS2. Blessed be His name

[Dr.Phibles]

didn't the panzer 3 n only have the short 75? either way i think they have said its the pz3 with the 50 cant remember wich model that is, as for balance im sure russians will get more t34s than germans will p4s so balance should be ok

[Sir Reginald]

http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/...pzkpfw-iii.asp

http://www.wwiivehicles.com/ussr/tanks-light/t-70.asp


so what you get is a German medium tank
vs a Russian light tank
sounds good to me

[Frostedfire]

Originally Posted by giuseppe443

Well itsw hard to outclasse the PzIII with out it being the T-34 or the KV1.
But if they dont put the PzIII N that had the long 75mm cannon it ok. I think they have to chose between the PzIII J,J/1,L,M,N

a shame they can't implement several, wouldn't most of the implementation differences be the odd internal/external component* and modifying animations for each tank shell?

*eg the driver's viewport, the gun (obviously), maybe a model change for an up-armoured version etc

[Barber[FG]]

The way things will or should logically be balanced is thus:

The Germans will receive fewer Panzer IV Medium tanks in direct correlation to the amount of Russian T34 tanks being used. The opposite correlation will be drawn between Panzer IIIJ’s and T70’s.

A theoretical Deployment of Forces could look something like this on a 16 player server with each player operating his/her own Tank in an even teams match.
German forces may deploy: 3 Panzer IV’s & 5 Panzer III’s
Russian forces may deploy: 5 T34’s & 3 T70’s

I believe the above deployments would be a fair fight. The Panzer IIIJ, while outmatch by the T34, could in fact destroy a T34 at shorter ranges. However, the T70, I believe, with its smaller crew, lighter armor and etc. would be much more pressed to inflict a killing blow to a Panzer IV.

[TheRealGunther]

Contrary to popular belief the Germans NEVER had tank superiority on the eastern front.During Stalingrad the Germans had no heavy tanks in the battle while the Red Army had a few models in action.The bane of the German tank core early in the war was the KV-1 the Germans had nothing even close to the heavy armor of the KV series.

Even by the time the Tiger and Panther was deployed in effect numbers the Russians was producing IS2'S and T34/85's in greater numbers than the Germans could ever match.The only advantage the Germans had on the eastern front tank wise was crew training and radio equipment.

If they ever add the KV-1 and its realistically represented you would be seeing a ton of German tank rounds bouncing off its heavy armor.Not sure they will do this due to balance reasons but it would be realistic.

The Germans feared the KV-1 so much they went out of their way to capture them and use them against the Russians...many KV's wore the German cross.

Spoiler!

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/rkkaw...v-1c/kv1c4.jpg

http://www.ww2incolor.com/d/472315-3/1281566367873

[evil lemon325]

Originally Posted by TheRealGunther

Even by the time the Tiger and Panther was deployed in effect numbers the Russians was producing IS2'S and T34/85's in greater numbers than the Germans could ever match.The only advantage the Germans had on the eastern front tank wise was crew training and radio equipment.

Uhh, IS-2's and T-34-85's only started appearing on the battlefield in mid 1944, while Tigers had already been deployed since 1942 and panthers since kursk mid-1943. Late model up armored, up gunned Panzer IV's were also more than a match for the T-34's, which, at there highest point, still only made 55% of the total Russian tank inventory, with the KV-1/2 regarded as a failure by the Stavka with only around a combined 5,000 total compared to the T-34's near 50,000 production. Most of the soviet tank pool still consisted of obsolete models.

The quality of German tanks were markedly better during the period of the battle of Stalingrad, as well as nearly 1 year later.

[TheRealGunther]

Originally Posted by evil lemon325

Uhh, IS-2's and T-34-85's only started appearing on the battlefield in mid 1944, while Tigers had already been deployed since 1942 and panthers since kursk mid-1943. Late model up armored, up gunned Panzer IV's were also more than a match for the T-34's, which, at there highest point, still only made 55% of the total Russian tank inventory, with the KV-1/2 regarded as a failure by the Stavka with only around a combined 5,000 total compared to the T-34's near 50,000 production. Most of the soviet tank pool still consisted of obsolete models.

The quality of German tanks were markedly better during the period of the battle of Stalingrad, as well as nearly 1 year later.

Like I said in effective numbers the Tiger while very effective was only produced in small numbers and never set foot inside Stalingrad.The Panther was rushed into service in the battle of Kursk over half the Panthers broke down due to mechanical problems.By the time they fixed its numerous problems it was in 44 for them to be effective.

While the KV was obsolete by the end of the war and in the close street to street fighting Stalingrad it proved to be very effective.Where the longer ranged high velocity German main guns could not be used to full advantage.While the heavy armor of the KV proved a tough nut for the Germans to crack.Often they used flak 88's to knock them out even its side armor would deflect the 50/76mm guns the Germans used.

Spoiler!

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...ucFqCcAHHQDu6Q

In the battle of Krasnogvardeysk (near Leningrad) five kv-1's held up the 8th pnz division for over a day.The lead KV counted 135 hits on its armor none penetrated.While the kv's destroyed 43 German tanks.Only after running out of ammo did the Russians retreat pretty effective by any ones standards.It was acts like these that forced the Germans to design the Tiger to begin with...They was also impressed with the French Char-B but that's another story.

The misconception is that all the German tanks was technically superior.This was just not the case most of the German tank core was made up of panzer II's and outdated panzer III's.While by Stalingrad the T-34 had been produced in very large numbers.While quality wise the Germans had the edge the sure numbers of the Red Armies tank forces kept the Germans from ever gaining tank superiority.The sure numbers of t-34s produced and their effectiveness proved just too much for the Germans it came down to a manufacturing war and the Germans lost.

[evil lemon325]

Originally Posted by TheRealGunther

Like I said in effective numbers the Tiger while very effective was only produced in small numbers and never set foot inside Stalingrad.The Panther was rushed into service in the battle of Kursk over half the Panthers broke down due to mechanical problems.By the time they fixed its numerous problems it was in 44 for them to be effective.

While the KV was obsolete by the end of the war and in the close street to street fighting Stalingrad it proved to be very effective.Where the longer ranged high velocity German main guns could not be used to full advantage.While the heavy armor of the KV proved a tough nut for the Germans to crack.Often they used flak 88's to knock them out even its side armor would deflect the 76mm guns the Germans used.

Spoiler!

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...ucFqCcAHHQDu6Q

In the battle of Krasnogvardeysk (near Leningrad) five kv-1's held up the 8th pnz division for over a day.The lead KV counted 135 hits on its armor none penetrated.While the kv's destroyed 43 German tanks.Only after running out of ammo did the Russians retreat pretty effective by any ones standards.It was acts like these that forced the Germans to design the Tiger to begin with...They was also impressed with the french Char-B but that's another story.

The misconception is that all the German tanks was technically superior.This was just not the case most of the German tank core was made up of panzer II's and outdated panzer III's.While by Stalingrad the T-34 had been produced in very large numbers.While quality wise the Germans had the edge the sure numbers of the Red Armies tank forces kept the Germans from ever gaining tank superiority.The sure numbers of t-34s produced and their effectiveness proved just too much for the Germans it came down to a manufacturing war and the Germans lost.

Firstly, it's well known that in the early days of the Russian invasion the T-34 and KV series were superior to all German tanks (however, at the launch date of Operation Barbarossa those tanks consisted of less than 10% the total Russian tank force). Not debating 1941.

Right, I know that while Russian tank manufacturing was far superior (the Russians did win after all) and that Russian tanks were sometimes technically superior, I stand by that the German tank force surpassed the Russians in terms of technical superiority in 1942, and they never really lost that crown. Up-gunned Panzer !V's were plenty a match, or better, than any contemporary T-34 or Sherman post 1941 and pre-1945, but that was when Germany itself was completely collapsing with all of its allies and their material resources having abandoned them at this point, so it's understandable that the 'last-ditch' models would have a drop in quality compared to their predecessors.

The panther was also not a terribly difficult machine to make or expensive compared to the Panzer IV, and so was able to made in large numbers (for the German wartime industry), and contemporary models where wholly all around better than the T34-85, which appeared an entire year later than the Panther. Teething problems of the Panther at Kursk are irrelevant, because they were teething problems, on a tank rushed into service. After a few months, however, the Panther was a fully capable machine.

My point is that from mid 1942 to early 1945, the German tank force as a whole was technically superior to the Russian tank force, the obvious manufacturing superiority of the soviets notwithstanding.

[TheRealGunther]

@ evil lemon325

I agree ..but technical superiority and tank superiority are two different things numbers count towards this.My point was as a whole the Germans never gained tank superiority over the Red Army.They just didn't have the manufacturing capability.

Many people believe the Germans roamed the Russian steppe with impunity relying on total tank superiority this was just not the case.This is not even directed at you as its obvious you know your history.

The biggest advantage the Germans had in their tank force was crew training and tactics.While maybe not the best the most effective tank of the war was the t-34 it proved to be cheap to produce and maintain as well as very effective.By the end of the war it just overwhelmed the Germans no matter how good their tactics/tanks was.

[giuseppe443]

But for operation barbarosa. All german tanks hard radios, something that non soviet tank had until 1943, from that day only command tanks had them. Thats a fact that could be only implemented by giving the russian team no chat option (not happening).
And also the PzIII and PzIV had only problems with the T34,Kv-1 and Kv-2. Tanks that would have there tracks destroyed and finished by the infantery or the luftwaffe, something that we cant get with only tank fights only.
So they have to balance it somewere

Many people believe the Germans roamed the Russian steppe with impunity relying on total tank superiority this was just not the case.This is not even directed at you as its obvious you know your history.

Well in fact they had only problems with the T-34 and the Kv-1 and 2. The pzIII and PzIV were in case roaming the russain steppe, with the fact the there tanks were stronger and had radios. In the fact that a russian t-34 or kv-1 appered the germans would just have there tracks destroyed and finished by the infantery or the luftwaffe.

[TheRealGunther]

Originally Posted by giuseppe443

Well in fact they had only problems with the T-34 and the Kv-1 and 2. The pzIII and PzIV were in case roaming the russain steppe, with they fact the there tanks were stronger and had radios. In the fact that a russian t-34 or kv-1 appered the germans would just have there tracks destroyed and finished by the infantery or the luftwaffe.

The early successes of the German army was due to the fact that the Red Army had lost their command structure thanks to Stalins purges and the lack of any Russian air cover.More so than any tank superiority once the Russians had competent generals they proved more than a match for the panzer divisions.

In fact after Georgy Zhukov took over the Red Army never lost a battle under his command and the Germans was on the defensive from the Stalingrad encirclement to the end of the war.There is many German fanboys refusing to believe anything but total German superiority.I am not a Russian fanboy nor a German I just study the war unbiased.

If this was the case the Germans would have never lost the war on the eastern front.While the panzer IV in its upgraded versions had an edge over the T-34 they was only a fraction of the German tank core.The bulk of the panzer divisions was still made up of panzer II's and III's.While by the end of 42 T-34's swelled the ranks of the Russian guard divisions.

The fact remains even though they came close the Germans never had tank superiority over the Red Army.Early in the war when they had the most success the T-34 and KV was superior to anything the Germans fielded.Mid war 42-43 when they came the closest they may have had technically better tanks.The numbers and quality of the tanks being produced was just too much for the Germans in the end. No offense but if you study history wearing German goggles your only getting half the story.

To fanboys on either side

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/516...rwingsgirl.jpg

[giuseppe443]

Originally Posted by TheRealGunther

The early successes of the German army was due to the fact that the Red Army had lost their command structure thanks to Stalins purges and the lack of any Russian air cover.More so than any tank superiority once the Russians had competent generals they proved more than a match for the panzer divisions.

In fact after Georgy Zhukov took over the Red Army never lost a battle under his command and the Germans was on the defensive from the Stalingrad encirclement to the end of the war.There is many German fanboys refusing to believe anything but total German superiority.I am not a Russian fanboy nor a German I just study the war unbiased.

If this was the case the Germans would have never lost the war on the eastern front.While the panzer IV in its upgraded versions had an edge over the T-34 they was only a fraction of the German tank core.The bulk of the panzer divisions was still made up of panzer II's and III's.While by the end of 42 T-34's swelled the ranks of the Russian guard divisions.

The fact remains even though they came close the Germans never had tank superiority over the Red Army.Early in the war when they had the most success the T-34 and KV was superior to anything the Germans fielded.Mid war 42-43 when they came the closest they may have had technically better tanks.The numbers and quality of the tanks being produced was just too much for the Germans in the end. No offense but if you study history wearing German goggles your only getting half the story.

To fanboys on either side

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/516...rwingsgirl.jpg

i am not really a fan boy of the german army, i was just saying that before 42 the t-34 was in low numbers and bad fieled into action. Ones the russian got how strong it was with the slooped armor, the gun and the speed. And they started to massproduce them. German victory was hanging from a string. One of the facts that the germans got so fare, is that the point that you said of the stupied generals (most of stalings C***suckers) and the fast destruction of the soviet airforce and well the better german tactics and the lag of them from the russian side.
But hitler made the mistake of not counting the soviets divicions before the war. The germans could have never field the numbers or produce the quantity
of tanks or soldiers. But i will never say that the russian made tanks of better
quality

[TheRealGunther]

Originally Posted by giuseppe443

i am not really a fan boy of the german army, i was just saying that before 42 the t-34 was in low numbers and bad fieled into action. Ones the russian got how strong it was with the slooped armor, the gun and the speed. And they started to massproduce them. German victory was hanging from a string. One of the facts that the germans got so fare, is that the point that you said of the stupied generals (most of stalings C***suckers) and the fast destruction of the soviet airforce and well the better german tactics and the lag of them from the russian side.
But hitler made the mistake of not counting the soviets divicions before the war. The germans could have never field the numbers or produce the quantity
of tanks or soldiers. But i will never say that the russian made tanks of better
quality

I never meant that you was a fanboy perhaps that was a bit harsh so I apologize. What I meant is their is a ton of German fans out there that only play that side.Refusing to believe anything but German superiority.I do respect what the Germans did considering they fought most of the war under Hitlers retarded restrictions.Also the fact that they faced hordes of high quality T-34's in numbers they could never match.

The whole discussion is more of a misunderstanding.I never said that the Russians had far superior tanks in quality.Tank superiority includes numbers and that's something the Germans never matched.The Tiger and Panther was direct results of what they faced early in the war.

The Tiger was a counter to Russian heavy tanks like the KV and the Panther was a counter to the T-34.While the panzers was built to a higher standard than their counter parts numbers win wars and that's what happened on the eastern front.(western front for that matter as well)

The biggest problem the German tank core faced was logistics and the fact that their tanks had so many versions.Making parts and repair difficult while the T-34 proved to be very reliable and effective at the same time.
Russian equipment my be somewhat crude but it works and is easy to produce and maintain as well as still being a threat.

IMO and many others that's why the T-34 was the most effective tank of the war.

Keeping this thread on topic I can't wait for the light tanks I'm hoping their greater maneuverability makes them a viable option.Getting in the caps faster and being able to flank the heavier tanks etc.This would realistically reflect the advantages they had in RL.