New level of Difficulty

[Left 4 Dinner]

So my reasoning for thinking of this, is because of the idea of “what if there was an increase in the level caps?” So if there ever was such a thing, then why not have another level of difficulty? As it stands, many of us do not think that such a thing will occur, but if there was a level increase, would simply increasing the basic stats for zds be justified? If there was another level of difficulty, I suggest that it be called Apocalyptic. Apocalyptic, sounds pretty big and bad***, and its probably going to be one of those difficulties that would be very hard, if not near impossible to beat. A simple design for the icon used when finding a server with this difficulty, it could be a red skull with white eyes and a flame shooting out of the backside.

So thats my reasoning for having another level of difficulty, but its simply increasing the various abilities of zeds. In my opinion, and I think others would agree with me, that sounds to simple and very boring. As it stands, Hell on Earth has been considered too easy for some, while others think that its a good challenge, so I'm proposing various ways of changing the game play for a game on HoE difficulty.



The Hell on Earth Concept changes:

Husks are still very resistant to FB’s, but this time, they cannot be set on fire. Also, FB’s CAN be damaged by Husk’s firecannon, if they are directly hit by the shot. (The damage inflicted is just like how the All husk mutator is.)

10-15 seconds less time for trader (better know where it is, where any shortcuts are, and what your wanting to buy)

Zeds spawn in smaller numbers (just slightly, but it’s a way of giving a slight, fighting chance for the players)

Patriarch’s overall damage, speed, and health is kept the same, but he can heal a fourth time, OR Patriarch’s overall damage, speed, and health are all the same, but when he runs away to heal, he can heal for a higher percentage of health.

Zeds are tactically “smarter”, and will try to entrap a group. A basic example is that if a swarm of clots and crawlers are heading to a group of players, the clots would go and attack from the front while the crawlers would keep behind and attempt to circle around the players before attacking. The one upside to this is that it makes the zeds more vulnerable, but if they go unnoticed, then they can be a nasty surprise. This doesn’t apply to FP’s, scrakes, husk, or sirens. This promotes better awareness of a player’s own surroundings.

No weapons or armor spawn during the round. Only ammo packs do, but rarely. However, during trading time, there will be at least one ammo pack that is present, 1 weapon that is present, and a possible chance of armor that is present (chances of armor is very slim to none, but it’s still possible)

Stalker’s and Patty’s cloaking devices are rigged in a way such that a commando can still see them, but they appear to “blink”. Each “blink” lasts for about a half a second. This forces commandos to remember where he last saw the zed, and gives him a greater challenge.

Zeds react better to grenades and try to avoid them the best they can

Zeds don’t waste time eating player's corpses (sounds kinda silly, but when they do eat a body, it makes them open to attacks, so removing that will make them more focus on their goal.) or by eating a player's corpse, the zed is able to heal if it is injured.

Fleshpound's rage meter only resets if it loses site of a player. Even if it takes a small amount of damage over time, it wont reset unless it loses sight of the player. (I figured that I would say it and see what people think. Some people will hate me for suggesting it, others, will like the concept. I'm mixed about it, but I doubt any of this will be used.)

Possibly ease up on the sharpshooters head shot multiplier, in order to make it better for sharpy's

[nutterbutter]

You're making a game for 6 zerkers.

infinite ammo
permanent armor
no need for cash
speed to get out of trouble

[Ajk1230]

New difficulty: yes
New perk levels: yes
New stats/bonuses: no

[Diablo50]

Originally Posted by Left 4 Dinner

So my reasoning for thinking of this, is because of the idea of “what if there was an increase in the level caps?” So if there ever was such a thing, then why not have another level of difficulty. A difficulty that pushes the limits of the players with their new increase in stats and bonuses. A difficulty that challenges the hardest of veterans.

So, my idea was to make another difficulty that incorporates the basics of an increased difficulty, along with other ideas that make it harder. Now, some of the ideas I bring up with the “big concept changes”, can be a bit overwhelming and would prove to be very hard to work with, but if perk’s stats improve, and player’s ability improve, then they should be able to adapt to the new difficulty. Also, I had a hard time trying to think of a name for the difficulty, because Hell on Earth sounds pretty darn tough, so I did the best I can, and came up with Apocalyptic or Perpetual Damnation. Apocalyptic, sounds pretty big and bad***, and perpetual damnation reminds me of the long and relentless battles against the zeds. And as for the design of the icon used when finding a server with this difficulty, it could be a red skull with white eyes and a flame shooting out of the backside.


The Basic Concept changes:

Increase in the amount of total zeds

Health and speed increase for zeds

Bounty decreases for each zed

Players can’t escape from clots still

Overall damage output from zeds is increased (with increased damage, zeds affected by bloat’s puke, and Husk’s fire cannon, are increased as well)

The amount of damage required to stun a zed. is slightly higher than that of Hell on Earth

Headshot bonuses for Sharpshooters is the same as Hell on Earth



The Big Concept changes:

Husks are 90% resistant to FB’s, and cannot be set on fire. Also, FB’s CAN be damaged by Husk’s firecannon, if they are directly hit by the shot

10-15 seconds less time for trader (better know where it is, where any shortcuts are, and what your wanting to buy)

Zeds spawn in smaller numbers (just slightly, but it’s a way of giving a slight, fighting chance for the players)

Patriarch’s overall damage, speed, and health is the same as Hell on Earth (maybe slightly less), but he can heal a fourth time, OR Patriarch’s overall damage, speed, and health are all increased slightly, but he is left with the default of 3 heals.

Zeds are tactically “smarter”, and will try to entrap a group. A basic example is that if a swarm of clots and crawlers are heading to a group of players, the clots would go and attack from the front while the crawlers would keep behind and attempt to circle around the players before attacking. The one upside to this is that it makes the zeds more vulnerable, but if they go unnoticed, then they can be a nasty surprise. This doesn’t apply to FP’s, scrakes, husk, or sirens. This promotes better awareness of a player’s own surroundings.

No weapons or armor spawn during the round. Only ammo packs do, but very rarely. However, during trading time, there will be at least one ammo pack that is present, 1 weapon that is present, and a possible chance of armor that is present (chances of armor is very slim to none, but it’s still possible)

Stalker’s and Patty’s cloaking devices are rigged in a way such that a commando can still see them, but they appear to “blink”. Each “blink” lasts for about a half a second. This forces commandos to remember where he last saw the zed, and gives him a greater challenge

Zeds react better to grenades and try to avoid them the best they can

Zeds don’t waste time eating corpses (sounds kinda silly, but when they do eat a body, it makes them open to attacks, so removing that will make them more focus on their goal.)



So thats the basic outline that I have for now. I plan on writing the exact numbers of things, like how much bounty each received from each zed killed, how much health that each zed has, etc. but I just wanted to get my idea out there for the time being. Feel free to say what you think of it, and if theres any thing to add/remove, then just say what and possibly explain why.

Awesome idea ! I am want new difficulty and new perk level ( level 7 ) and new maps ! I think HOE is easy....so need new difficulty

[Left 4 Dinner]

Originally Posted by nutterbutter

You're making a game for 6 zerkers.

infinite ammo
permanent armor
no need for cash
speed to get out of trouble

Unfortunatly, that is a possibility, but for those who want a real challenge, they wouldnt go bezerker.

Originally Posted by Diablo50

Awesome idea! I want new difficulty and new perk level ( level 7 ) and new maps! I think HOE is easy....so need new difficulty

Thanks! I know i love new maps too, but Im mixed about HOE being too easy. For most maps, its a tough challenge, but for some, its either too easy, or too hard. Ive been able to play HOE on most maps, but Im still unable to win it on Biotics lab. I think its because the map is really small and cramped, and having to camp at the spawning area is very dangerous.

[Diablo50]

I am done all HOE map and the biotics is not so hard just need a good team and camp in the starting spawn area.If you want i am help you in the Biotics HOE map for win

[Left 4 Dinner]

Originally Posted by Diablo50

I am done all HOE map and the biotics is not so hard just need a good team and camp in the starting spawn area.If you want i am help you in the Biotics HOE map for win

thats the thing "Good team". Ive played with people who I think are considered really good, and we usually have a balance setup. The last time I played there on HoE, we got wiped out on the 9th wave, but we had me as a medic, 1 zerk, 2 supports, 1 sharpy, and a demolitions guy. All of us were lvl 6's, but the mix of FP's and sirens proved to be too much for us.

[Althamus]

Firstly, I like that you've had some new ideas for the game, rather than the standard "Everything is like HoE but +10%".

Few thoughts:
When the last difficulty was introduced, it was shuffled just below the hardest difficulty and all the stats for everything was shuffled around a bit. Meaning that it would be possible for HoE to become slightly easier and reduce the gap between that and suicidal (if indeed it is too large) and put the new difficulty in on top. I'm thinking primarily of things like movement speeds. Already, if you are hurt and have something chasing you, it is a real challenge to clear the faster things behind while keeping the way infront clear if you're not a berserker. Faster movement speeds again would be pretty brutal IMHO.

Increase the scrake stunning level. Not sure on this one. You can stun reliably them atm with sharp's Xbow/LAR and zerker claymore/axe? Oh, and husk cannon (lol). And LAW I guess. Although the latter two are rarer ways of stunning them IMHO.
But the LAR, axe and claymore are all only JUST able to stun them, if the threshold increases anymore, they'll all be out. And on the average group, that'll mean scrakes will just be up to sharpshooters with Xbows.

Maybe instead of ramping up zed damage (after all, on HoE if a non-zerk/medic gets hit in the back by a couple of gorefasts, he's dead if he has no armour. It's already pretty brutal), how about reducing zerker/medic resistance? They're the only classes who can last more than a couple of hits anyways.

I agree with the no weapon/armour spawn, but yea, an ammo spawn is needed to prevent players from being forced to wait for scrakes to die forever alone.

Thought about giving the husk/siren's damage resistance in the same way that scrakes have it on suicidal+? Might be a bit too brutal with a siren, but maybe cool for the husk.

Other than that, sounds cool.

[Diablo50]

ohh and my ide is when we have the new difficulty and the new perk level 7 we NO go auto level 7 some player have 20-30 M damage...etc my idea is when you need the level 7 you deal 3-5 M damage + to earn the level 7 or some new achivement so you need to earn xyz achivement to earn level 7 or both ( sry my english , i am hungarian ) but i hope you understund me.

The Patriarch is need some new ability or better AI. In HOE is too easy to kill him just pipe or chainsaw and he die.....maybe he need to spawn more zed and he control the zeds to go the pipes to activate so he not die i nthe pipes or he need resistance to the chainsaw ( 6 zerk with chainsaw is pretty easy ) ohh and he need more life and maybe when the fightning time is too long he can spawn siren or scrake so ( enrage time like Diablo 3 act boss )

My Perk idea :

Level 6 Berserk

damage : 100%
attack speed : 25%
movmeent speed : 30%
bloat bile : 80%
all damage resistance : 40%
katana/chainsaw/claymore discount : 70%
spawn with chainsaw and combat armor (Combat Armor Does not apply to Suicidal or Hell on Earth and Apocalyptic difficulty.
cant be grabbed by clot's
zed time extensions : 4

Level 7 Berserk

damage : 110%
attack speed : 25% - or maybe 28-30%
movmeent speed : 30% or maybe 33-35%
bloat bile : 80% or maybe 85%
all damage resistance : 45%
katana/chainsaw/claymore discount : 75%
spawn with chainsaw and combat armor (Combat Armor Does not apply to Suicidal or Hell on Earth and Apocalyptic difficulty.
Can be grabbed by Clots in Apocalyptic difficulty
zed time extensions : 5

[TheMutant]

Originally Posted by Diablo50

ohh and my ide is when we have the new difficulty and the new perk level 7 we NO go auto level 7 some player have 20-30 M damage...etc my idea is when you need the level 7 you deal 3-5 M damage + to earn the level 7 or some new achivement so you need to earn xyz achivement to earn level 7 or both ( sry my english , i am hungarian ) but i hope you understund me

IMO, I'm against higher perk levels including better bonuses. This would just make lower difficulties more easy and is an endless ladder. Even now, I think the beginner difficulty is senseless except for achievement exploiting.

I agree with Althamus, making the zeds faster, deal more damage and have more health is too simple, this just results in some perks won't be used anymore (for instance: commando, firebug).
Adding special abilities, resistances and/or behaviours would add a more dynamic and surprising gameplay.

When I assess the difficulties of KF, I have to criticize that the zeds do not really act realistic, they are too predictable and static, like when a zerk kites a fleshpound. If the zerk is good enough he feels save and won't get any damage. Adding there some random behaviour (rage treshold/timer or sth.) would make gameplay more hectic.
The advantage in the current system is that players can fully rely on their skill which is good but becomes boring from time to time. Adding a some random behaviour would increase the difficulty heavily because you cannot fully rely on your skills anymore as you cannot predict how the zed will react the next moment. That means more realism, challenge, teamplay and fear imo.

Whooo, what a long post.

[Althamus]

Originally Posted by TheMutant

When I assess the difficulties of KF, I have to criticize that the zeds do not really act realistic, they are too predictable and static, like when a zerk kites a fleshpound. If the zerk is good enough he feels save and won't get any damage.

While I agree, a) the zerker kiting the FP is a bad example as it is an exploit (IMHO), since a FP should rage 10-15 secs when he has unbroken LoS to a player, but making him attack resets this counter, when it IMHO shouldn't.
b) Increasing the AI for the zeds would require quite a large overhaul of the game IMHO. I'm guessing the AI behaviour was programmed by TWI, so to increase their intelligence would require a chunk more programming? They can't just move a slider of intelligence upwards.

[Undedd Jester]

Originally Posted by Left 4 Dinner

Unfortunatly, that is a possibility, but for those who want a real challenge, they wouldnt go bezerker.

Thats true... unfortunately anyone picking a Berserker forces the rest of the team to build appropriately without them. 2 Berserkers means the team is extremely limited in what it can do. 3 Berserkers and any hope of a team comp is gone, its go Berserker or die.

This new difficulty would suffer with the same problem HoE does. Players who simply refuse to actually learn how to play the game and operate on the principle "Duh, I'm level 6 I can kill anything HueHueHue!"

[nutterbutter]

Originally Posted by Left 4 Dinner

Unfortunatly, that is a possibility, but for those who want a real challenge, they wouldnt go bezerker.

Not a possibility; It's a fact. The game boils down to DoT. More specimens at a time means the players have to do more damage per second or "create" more seconds. More health and speed for specimens favors dramatically favors infinite ammo weapons for the former and zerker speed for the latter. Bounty decreases specifically favor infinite ammo weapons. Insta-clot grab still favors zerkers. Overall damage output again favors zerkers with their permanent armor. Lower trader time favors zerkers and medics. No spawning weapons or armor, and almost no ammo packs, dramatically favor zerkers for the above reasons.

And so on...

Look, as long there are zerkers in the game and the game stays geared to favor zerkers, they will always be OP. Anything done to increase difficulty will invariably make the game more difficult for other perks and have a slight impact, at best, to the zerker. This isn't directed at you or your suggestion. The zerker is OP and that is just the way it is and how the game is designed. And how it will stay.

You want to make the game more difficult? Make a mod where none of the players can be a zerker and everything else falls into place. Players have to play the game. Ammo matters to everyone. Teamwork matters. Players have to stick together. The game is more difficult to everyone and any changes in the game affects all players.

[pie1055]

I like the individual ideas, but why a separate new difficulty? I would think that the current five would cover a diverse enough skillset (complete newb, practicing, learning, honing, perfecting). Why not take these ideas and incorporate them into hell on earth? If you ask me hoe is not that different from suicidal in terms of difficulty as it stands.

[Left 4 Dinner]

Originally Posted by nutterbutter

Not a possibility; It's a fact. The game boils down to DoT. More specimens at a time means the players have to do more damage per second or "create" more seconds. More health and speed for specimens favors dramatically favors infinite ammo weapons for the former and zerker speed for the latter. Bounty decreases specifically favor infinite ammo weapons. Insta-clot grab still favors zerkers. Overall damage output again favors zerkers with their permanent armor. Lower trader time favors zerkers and medics. No spawning weapons or armor, and almost no ammo packs, dramatically favor zerkers for the above reasons.

And so on...

Look, as long there are zerkers in the game and the game stays geared to favor zerkers, they will always be OP. Anything done to increase difficulty will invariably make the game more difficult for other perks and have a slight impact, at best, to the zerker. This isn't directed at you or your suggestion. The zerker is OP and that is just the way it is and how the game is designed. And how it will stay.

You want to make the game more difficult? Make a mod where none of the players can be a zerker and everything else falls into place. Players have to play the game. Ammo matters to everyone. Teamwork matters. Players have to stick together. The game is more difficult to everyone and any changes in the game affects all players.

Well, maybe there could be a perk limit for beserkers in this newer difficulty level. Only one zerk allowed in a 6 man server game. And yeah its a shame that it would boil down to going with a class that absically doesnt need ammo, but I was just hoping that poeple like my firends and I would see the challenge, and attempt to do it without resorting to easy measures.

In a way, its like how some people chainsaw gangbang the patty. yeah its possible and easy to do, but its too easy and just not right.

Originally Posted by pie1055

I like the individual ideas, but why a separate new difficulty? I would think that the current five would cover a diverse enough skillset (complete newb, practicing, learning, honing, perfecting). Why not take these ideas and incorporate them into hell on earth? If you ask me hoe is not that different from suicidal in terms of difficulty as it stands.

Actually, I agree with that. HoE doesnt feel that much different from suicidal, especially if you mainly play between those two types of difficulties. Perhaps certain aspects of my ideas could be implemented into HoE. I think the simple things like cloaked zeds "blinking" for commandos, zeds attempting to better avoid grenades and husks being able to deal impact damage to firebugs, would be nice little changes that give it that extra bit of difficulty.


Im glad people seem to like the idea of adding new concepts into a new, or current difficulty. I think that if just one or maybe even two of tthese things were added, then some people would agree that the challenge for HoE would be a little bit greater. Any other suggestions for what could be added?

[CandleJack]

What you need to do is make Firebug and Sharpshooter more viable for everyone on higher difficulties.

I'd say quicker crisp and more HS multiplier.

[Left 4 Dinner]

Originally Posted by CandleJack

What you need to do is make Firebug and Sharpshooter more viable for everyone on higher difficulties.

I'd say quicker crisp and more HS multiplier.

You mean like zeds affected by a FB's fire, are quicker to get burnt, and that the headshot multi. is higher than what it currently is for all of the weapons used by sharpshooter? That actually sounds pretty good for the firebug. It would make them even more useful if they could cause zeds to get burnt faster, thus being able to slow down a zed's charge much faster.

[Tenska]

Originally Posted by nutterbutter

You're making a game for 6 zerkers.

infinite ammo
permanent armor
no need for cash
speed to get out of trouble

Increase maximum spawns to 50 and zerkers must be surrounded at some point.

[nutterbutter]

Originally Posted by Tenska

Increase maximum spawns to 50 and zerkers must be surrounded at some point.

And that would do what? Being surrounded doesn't really matter to zerker. Zerkers can simply power fight their way out. They have the speed to outrun specimens. They can't be held by clots. That btw, is extremely OP. They have permanent armor.

Let me give you a perfect example. The team, except for a couple zerkers, wiped on mountain pass. I'm watching this zerker and he is being stalked by an FP and kiting a large amount of other specimens. He runs into the room in the mountain at the far end of the map. The one with the truck out front and the trader across the road. So he's kiting an FP and another dozen specimens. So he runs into the room by the truck and instead of running out and across the road to the trader area, he turns left and goes upstairs. He runs upstairs and turns the corner and there is another FP with another 6 or so specimens. Zerker simply runs past the second FP kills a couple specimens and runs past the rest and goes outside. No other perk survives such a situation and the zerker survived it completely unscathed.

Zerker can't be surrounded unless the zerker allows himself to be surrounded.

Originally Posted by Left 4 Dinner

Well, maybe there could be a perk limit for beserkers in this newer difficulty level. Only one zerk allowed in a 6 man server game. And yeah its a shame that it would boil down to going with a class that absically doesnt need ammo, but I was just hoping that poeple like my firends and I would see the challenge, and attempt to do it without resorting to easy measures.

One zerker would still break it because the point it to survive it, right? One zerker finishing each wave isn't really surviving it. It is a "get out of jail free card" each wave. Keep in mind, my comments aren't about your suggestions, just how zerkers simply get around everything and make the additional difficulties "not difficult."

Now if you and your friends want to play the new difficulty then that would be fine because I'm guessing you and your friends would want the challenge and not load the team up with zerkers. I'm just pointing out what would happen in a pub game where many, many people like to be basically invulnerable and play the zerker so they will not die and will always be the guy that saves the team each wave.

[TheMutant]

Originally Posted by Althamus

While I agree, a) the zerker kiting the FP is a bad example as it is an exploit (IMHO), since a FP should rage 10-15 secs when he has unbroken LoS to a player, but making him attack resets this counter, when it IMHO shouldn't.
b) Increasing the AI for the zeds would require quite a large overhaul of the game IMHO. I'm guessing the AI behaviour was programmed by TWI, so to increase their intelligence would require a chunk more programming? They can't just move a slider of intelligence upwards.

a) You know what I mean, the same concerns to other zeds like Scrakes, nothing unexpected will happen that's what I wanted to emphasize. Actually, they are no brainless creatures aren't they?

b) That's the point, I don't want a new difficulty which just increases the "sliders", that's just too simple imo and results in which nutterbutter clarified in detail.

Originally Posted by Tenska

Increase maximum spawns to 50 and zerkers must be surrounded at some point.

The new difficulty should not be designed just to make nobody choose the zerker class. The current amount is quite fine, more would mean performance loss. Also the other classes would suffer from higher amounts which results in the same vicious circle -> everybody goes zerking.