Thoughts on Mamayev-Kurgan

[G_Sajer]

As most folks know by now, winning with the Russians is brutally difficult. I've been on winning Russian teams a few times, but it's rare. I suspect that the Russian side is winable, but that in most cases the Russian players are employing tactics that may work well on other maps but are of little benefit on this one.

Things to keep in mind:

The Russian figures seem to be facing moonlight in most cases.
The Germans seem to have light at their back in most cases.
It's particularly hard to move without being spotted unless crawling or in cover.

This map is like crawling around on a spot-lit bald bead; yet... the Germans seem to prevail most of the time.

I don't think the map is unbalanced. I think the wrong tactics are being used by the Russians much of the time.

If you accept the above premise, I'd like foks to give the map some thought, and suggest some ways the Russian team can do a better job of holding their caps long enough to win.

Don't just blurt out any vacant thought that comes to mind. There are folks out there that have combat experience. What does your training suggest to you to do under these conditions?

Just as a start off; two ideas occured to me.

1. Concentrate more troops inside trenches and bunkers and stay there?
2. If in the open, take up prone positions on the back-side of hills; not the forward side.

How about some ideas? This is a brilliant map. The Russians managed to control most of it continuously through the battle. How do you suppose they would have managed a night action like this?

[JakeWedd]

Well, its like a game I played just a few days Back, I hid in a little bunker on A with a view slit (Not the concrete ones) and managed to hold back the german Offensive on a fair bit of the right passage, while my team got forced back on the other sides.

Allot of the players dont use cover and the fixed positions properly, if a man goes to every bunker (or two) then the Russians will have a good chance, but if they all stand up on a ridge their gonna get Hurt, badly

[schepp himself]

Two things that work, imo, very good but are rarely used:

Russians mount all those fixed positions (concrete Bunkers at the flanks). Once I dig down on one of those things with a MG and could hold down a flank rather longish. I recommend!

Arty markers on the attacked objective and on each flanks. As a commander, I like to have an instant answer to forced flanks if I recon them. Good Squad leaders can help their commander a lot if they update their artymarkers constantly.

That's two ideas to make it easier to win as Russians on that map. Haven't played enough to give any suggestions map-wise. Like the map, though.

Greets
Schepp himself

[[40-1]MORD]

I think that this map very well balanced in Classic mode. Seen al lot of victories on both sides.

[Frostedfire]

Originally Posted by G_Sajer

I don't think the map is unbalanced. I think the wrong tactics are being used by the Russians much of the time.

that's usually because the crow-flight route to the point is open, and the russians take it most of the time (as russian I take it because I know most of the germans are rubbish shots, and as german they think I'm a rubbish shot ) and that leaves them being rolled and with large reinforcement defecits. One tactic is keeping every individual strongpoint manned - just like real life, everyone watches where everyone else isn't - and the other is for someone to actually lead the team and eg call to fall back to the next point (most useful when you move to e and you have that very defensible command post), I've been quite content to sit in a for 10 minutes while we bleed the reds white and then see them run out of men somewhere between b and c

[Trotskygrad]

the key is coordinating your defenses.

if the soviets just rush up to where they think they can defend from, they'll get picked off. You need to let them come to you, and sadly very few people do that.

[Cwivey]

Holding the tunnels in grid H4 is a large part of holding objective A, if you don't hold it, the Germans have free reign to get into the middle of the objective and flank the sides from behind through the trenches.

[Trotskygrad]

Originally Posted by Cwivey

Holding the tunnels in grid H4 is a large part of holding objective A, if you don't hold it, the Germans have free reign to get into the middle of the objective and flank the sides from behind through the trenches.

yeah I'd say more of the map is CQC than most people expect.

Tunnel fighting to get ready for In Country

Nothing that's worse than having occupied tunnels by germans, it's really hard to clear them out.

[AtheistIII]

As said, fortification and communication are the keys.
The SMGs should man trenches and tunnels and clear out any incoming germans and while rifles and MGs man the bunkers.
Reinforcements should approach in the cover of trenches cause the germans can easily pick them of at some points.

[=GG= Mr Moe]

Originally Posted by Frostedfire

that's usually because the crow-flight route to the point is open, and the russians take it most of the time...

That is half the problem right there.

As for the rest, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out how the defense should play the map yet some Russian players choose to ignore the obvious.

As time goes by and the clueless are weeded out, the map will seem more balanced than some people realize.

[Rabid Penguin]

You need teamwork first and foremost, followed by a good TL & SL's. My strategy when I play Russian commander is to keep my riflemen up top and assaults down in the bunkers and tunnels. I call recon whenever available and try to use Force Respawn wisely, Ie with lots of dead players with a long countdown. As for artillery, I have my SL's mark right in front of the current objective and call it in danger close if the point starts to fall.

[BoogieRooster]

This is definitely my favourite map, a real rifleman's delight!

This is just a general tip, applicable to both axis and allies:
As a rifleman I noticed that I tend to avoid the trenches like the plague. Not only do I get claustrophofic and usually turned to mince meat by SMG's and grenades, but I also find that I make too obvious of a target for enemy snipers and riflemen when I pop my head out. And I hate not being able to see what's happening outside the trench. To me they are a deathtrap (especially since I do not have bayo yet ), and I will only enter the tunnels when following an assault trooper, or if armed by automatics myself.

Nonetheless, the trenches are in tactically precious locations, so you can't really avoid them completely. Instead, I try to find spots where you can go prone "behind" the trench. Often there are places where the trench is protected and elevated by sandbags or other junk. That's where I go prone and lean out of the cover. Not only do you get visuals on the battlefield, I find that you are actually presenting a less obvious target for the enemy, who are often too focused on scanning the actual trench. And often, when the trench is taken by the enemy, I get sneaky shots in the back, since the enemy assault troopers may not necessarerly check outside the actual trench when they are advancing (plus you will be in an excellent position to practice your grenade skills).

As to larger scale tactics, I wouldn't know I go where I'm told, like a proper little rifleman.

[G_Sajer]

Taking some of the suggestions here, I and a few clan-mates jumped in last evening to give it a try. We made a real effort to take full advantage of the bunkers and trenches and remain tied to them. In the first round, we were driven nearly all the way back, but we managed to hold until the games end. The next round we were able to hold the A objective for the Russian team, and force a lock-down. It truely does seem to pay off to make better use of the fortifications.

[Trotskygrad]

Originally Posted by G_Sajer

Taking some of the suggestions here, I and a few clan-mates jumped in last evening to give it a try. We made a real effort to take full advantage of the bunkers and trenches and remain tied to them. In the first round, we were driven nearly all the way back, but we managed to hold until the games end. The next round we were able to hold the A objective for the Russian team, and force a lock-down. It truely does seem to pay off to make better use of the fortifications.

did you manage to do it with or without SilverGhost getting pissed

[Mekhazzio]

Originally Posted by =GG= Mr Moe

That is half the problem right there.

As for the rest, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out how the defense should play the map yet some Russian players choose to ignore the obvious.

As time goes by and the clueless are weeded out, the map will seem more balanced than some people realize.

I have the same view. It takes months for the flow of a map to trickle down into common knowledge. My impression so far is that Mamayev will sort out will in the end.

Heck, on release, there were complaints that Grain Elevator was a heavily German-biased map, and the servers were full of people on the Russian team saying things like "Just let them have A, it's impossible to defend!". It took ages for that to reverse.

[Holy.Death]

The Germans seem to have light at their back in most cases.

And you think it's a good thing to be outlined on the horizon/snow, betraying any movement to enemy shooters?

It's particularly hard to move without being spotted unless crawling or in cover.

There are trenches for moving without the fear of being killed, fixed HMG postions, bunkers, covering all entry points also helps.

This map is like crawling around on a spot-lit bald bead; yet... the Germans seem to prevail most of the time.

I've seen how Germans operate - they move mostly in group, Soviets are disorganized and don't cover entries or fire zones well enough. If there are 3 to 4 Germans acting together against 1 to 2 Soviets (and said Germans will then kill all other Soviets, because they think they friends still keep them protected) then there is no surprise Germans win more often than the Soviets. I've also seen Soviet tickets draining way faster than German's way too fast - you've to defend, not to attack or expose yourself in hope of getting a few kills.

I think the wrong tactics are being used by the Russians much of the time.

Indeed. Machine gunner and one, two people should back up to make sure no German will slip through, opening the way for more Germans. Sometimes you've to keep the point locked, but most of the people seems to go "where the action is" or into the cap zone (some points of the map should be defended as there are still trenches and enemy do make attempts to attack from far flanks). Germans find these abandoned weak spots and exploit them.

To win as the defender you have to defend (and conserve tickets, there is no real reason for exposing yourself needlessly). There are few ways do to this:
- Assaults keep entry points secure (tight passes on the left size when the game starts on A, for example). Assault weapons are good for defending them, you don't have to rush forward and kill the enemy, just to keep them out until they'll come to die or back up arrives.
- Riflemen pick up enemies from trenches and/or bunkers, not allowing them to get too close. Pick up weapons of dead people and keep doing what they did.
- LMGs should be where the biggest concentration of the enemy is, to mow anyone approaching. You don't have to make this shooting contest, just lockdown your area to make sure no one passes by to attack the rest of the team.
- Cover one another: if your comrade is looking one way, covering one angle you make sure the other is protected or you both will die. Don't just leave people and play your own game on your own.

[Buzzles]

I still think there's an issue with the spawn point locations on this map.

While I have seen Russian teams now who work together and properly camp the bejeesus out of the trenches manage to hold on to A and B to cause lockdowns, it's rare and hard to do.

C on the otherhand, is the tipping point for the map. It's quite hard to hold for the Russians (trying to clear out the trench infront puts you in direct line of sight to many many Germans), but the moment the Germans do get it, they've won as from there (and their new spawns) they can steamroll D and work quickly on E, all the while maintaining a much superior firing position (top of a hill!)

I think the big problem is that the Russian spawns force the Russians to enter into the German lines of fire when they leave spawn, which is the case for point A as well (just not as bad).

Either Russkie spawn moved to a room(s) inside the trenches, or modifiy the landscape to allow Russians easy routes into said trenches under cover would go a lot further to balancing the map.

[=GG= Mr Moe]

Originally Posted by Buzzles

C on the otherhand, is the tipping point for the map. It's quite hard to hold for the Russians (trying to clear out the trench infront puts you in direct line of sight to many many Germans), but the moment the Germans do get it, they've won as from there (and their new spawns) they can steamroll D and work quickly on E, all the while maintaining a much superior firing position (top of a hill!)

Many times, the Russian's fail to hold their own right flank when defending C and without it the Germans have an easier time capturing it. If the Russians have several competent players there, then they can fire into the flank of the German attack and I think it really helps hold them up. Holding the left too is good, but I think the firing positions are better from the right.

[Uniform764]

Originally Posted by Buzzles

I think the big problem is that the Russian spawns force the Russians to enter into the German lines of fire when they leave spawn, which is the case for point A as well (just not as bad).

This. Right side of D, there's a destroyed tank by a bunker. An MG34 and a rifleman or two around that tank can kill 60% plus of the Russian reinforcements, unless they crawl all the way from the spawn to the obj.

[=GG= Mr Moe]

Originally Posted by Uniform764

This. Right side of D, there's a destroyed tank by a bunker. An MG34 and a rifleman or two around that tank can kill 60% plus of the Russian reinforcements, unless they crawl all the way from the spawn to the obj.

This may be the case, but one thing many Russians do is run in a straight line directly at the Germans making themselves a steady, easy target. If they were to run perpendicular to the Germans and enter trenches, etc, they would be so much harder to hit.

Everyone should know it is so much easier to be hit if you run straight at the enemy.