Proposed tweak to Spawn System for better flow and less intrusive spawn protection

[Proud_God]

Let's take a look at the spawn system for Territory matches. While awesome, there are some issues with it:

• Intrusive spawn protection: when the defenders lose a cap, they suddenly are faced with immediate spawn protection, which is not nice and breaks the flow of battle. The attackers are also do not have to worry about clearing the captured point of enemies: the all-mighty spawn protection is basically a weapon.
• For a lot of maps, the flow consists of a sequence of smaller subsegments, with no fluent progression between them (mainly for attacker-defender maps)
• A map is really only as big as the distance between the spawns. The spawns, although they are moving, are always close to each other, where close means close as compared to the total map size.

These points lead to a situation where maps feel smaller than they could be. We really can achieve a sense of bigger maps without changing the actual maps, but by tweaking the spawn locations.

I propose the following tweak to the Spawn System to combat the above shortcomings, using an attacker-defender map as an example and using a cap that would be locked once captured (but it also applies to other maps):

IN SHORT:
Points are captured in 2 stages: first the defender's spawns are pushed back, then, after holding the point for 2 minutes (or taking the next cap), the point becomes locked and the attacker's spawns are moved up.

IN DETAIL:

• When the attackers capture the point, the defender's spawn is pushed back, as it is currently the case. However, the attacker's spawn is not moved up, yet.
• The captured point can be recaptured by the defenders, where as in the current situation, it would be locked.
• After a timespan of 2 minutes, the point will become locked (timespan open to tweaking and can be different depending on map/capture point). This lock-progression is displayed by the point icon slowly becoming black.
• Whenever the defenders initiate a recapture, the lock progression is paused. When they recapture, the situation returns to the initial one: this means the defender's spawn advances forward once again.
• When the lock-progression is complete after 2 minutes of uncontested cap, the attacker's spawn moves up. Spawn protection comes into effect in the cap. The defenders have 30 secs to evacuate the cap. We are now again in the same situation as when capping the point in the current implementation.
• The lock is immediate when the attackers capture the next point faster than the 2 minute lock-progression.

Consider the following example for the first 2 caps of MamayevKurgan.
The Axis spawn points are in white, the Russian in red.

For comparison, here is the situation in the current implementation:

1. The initial situation
   Mamayev_1.JPG
2. The Axis have captured point A. Point A becomes locked immediately and point B is the new target. Spawn protection will hit the remaining Russians in point A.
   Mamayev_2-old.JPG

With the tweak in effect:

1. The initial situation
   Mamayev_1.JPG
2. The Axis have captured point A. Note that point A is not locked. Russian spawns are pushed back. However, Axis spawns are not advanced. Note that there are no spawn protection issues. Also note that due to the greater distance between the Axis and Russian spawns, the battlefield becomes larger.
   Mamayev_2a-new.JPG
3. Over a timespan of 2 minutes (open for tweaking), point A will progress towards a lock:
   progressSpawnLock.JPG
   Point A remains recappable during this period. Starting a recap on point A halts the lock-progression (but does not reset it), recapping point A takes us back to the situation in step 1.
   Note that we are now in a situation where both teams can push each other back. If the Axis should capture point B before the lock is in effect on point A, we immediately move to step 4.
   Also note that the Axis don't need to be present in point A to progress the lock, they only need to keep the Russians out.
   Mamayev_2b-new.JPG
4. The Axis have controlled point A for 2 minutes, and it now becomes locked. Axis spawns move up and spawn protection comes into effect on point A (30 secs to evacuate). Point A is now forever lost to the Russians. Note that the Russian spawns do not move. We are now in the same situation as in the current implementation.
   Mamayev_2-old.JPG

Notes:

• Do not forget there is an immediate benefit for the attackers when they cap a point: the defender's spawns are pushed back.
• This tweak is applicable to all maps, and one can be creative in applying this tweak for cases where there are simultaneous caps. For example, capping D on Commissars might push only the right spawn of the Axis back, but not the left spawn. The lock-progression may or may not be applied to this cap, etc...
• This tweak will shift the balance of the maps in favor of the defenders. Others measures have to be used to compensate for this. Note that the maps are currently not perfectly balanced yet, so we are not destroying finely tuned balance here.

[Sarkis.]

I like it !

That is really good, capping if you are an attacker has to be final that way. I would suggest a clock counting down beside the cap letter, instead of it changing shades.

[Proud_God]

I added a short description to the OP, as I realize this is quite complex to go through:

IN SHORT:
Points are captured in 2 stages: first the defender's spawns are pushed back, then, after holding the point for 2 minutes (or taking the next cap), the point becomes locked and the attacker's spawns are moved up.

[Sarkis.]

Still, you gotta give'em attackers something in the same regard, otherwise it will be pointless

[Proud_God]

Originally Posted by Sarkis.

Still, you gotta give'em attackers something in the same regard, otherwise it will be pointless

As I mentioned, this will shift balance towards the defenders. Any existing balance tool can be used to compensate for that.

[Ducky]

I like the idea, but I would suggest that the lock countdown timer will only start if no defenders are left in the cap. This way the attackers will be forced to clear the cap. Looks more realistic that way.
Start the countdown after the last defender left the cap (or got killed). Then use a shorter countdown timer like 30 seconds to prevent that the defenders will move again in the cap or else we might get a race condition.

Any thoughts?

[Proud_God]

Originally Posted by Ducky

I like the idea, but I would suggest that the lock countdown timer will only start if no defenders are left in the cap. This way the attackers will be forced to clear the cap. Looks more realistic that way.
Start the countdown after the last defender left the cap (or got killed). Then use a shorter countdown timer like 30 seconds to prevent that the defenders will move again in the cap or else we might get a race condition.

Any thoughts?

To get things clear: Do you mean that once the countdown is starting, there is no way to stop it? (besides recapturing the point, which is hard in 30 seconds?)

[Ducky]

Originally Posted by Proud_God

To get things clear: Do you mean that once the countdown is starting, there is no way to stop it? (besides recapturing the point, which is hard in 30 seconds?)

Sort of. Maybe 30 seconds is too short, but I think 2 minutes will be too long. Don't forget that 2 minutes covers 4 re-spawns.
Anyway, what I tried to explain (badly ) was:

• Cap got taken by attackers, but still have defenders inside
• Lock countdown timer will not start yet
• Attackers have to clear the cap, while defenders can try to take back the cap
• Attackers kill last defender in cap. The lock countdown timer will start now.
• Defenders can try to get back in the cap. The lock countdown timer will stop if that happens, but should not reset.
• If attackers again kill the last defender, then the lock countdown timer will continue the countdown.

This way the defenders have a fair chance to take back the cap, plus attackers are forced to clear the cap before they can move on.

[Proud_God]

Originally Posted by Ducky

Sort of. Maybe 30 seconds is too short, but I think 2 minutes will be too long. Don't forget that 2 minutes covers 4 re-spawns.
Anyway, what I tried to explain (badly ) was:

• Cap got taken by attackers, but still have defenders inside
• Lock countdown timer will not start yet
• Attackers have to clear the cap, while defenders can try to take back the cap
• Attackers kill last defender in cap. The lock countdown timer will start now.
• Defenders can try to get back in the cap. The lock countdown timer will stop if that happens, but should not reset.
• If attackers again kill the last defender, then the lock countdown timer will continue the countdown.

This way the defenders have a fair chance to take back the cap, plus attackers are forced to clear the cap before they can move on.

I initially also thought of this, but then I realized that if you do it like this, 1 single defender gains too big of an advantage by playing hide-and-seek in the capzone. The attackers will have to find him to get the lock going (or capture the next point, but that will be harder since their spawns are not moved up yet).

[Ducky]

Originally Posted by Proud_God

I initially also thought of this, but then I realized that if you do it like this, 1 single defender gains too big of an advantage by playing hide-and-seek in the capzone. The attackers will have to find him to get the lock going.

Guess you are right there. Didn't think of that. One defender could indeed prevent the progression of the map by playing hide and seek. Just ignore my previous post

I was just thinking of a way to force the attackers to clear the cap.

[Proud_God]

Originally Posted by Ducky

Guess you are right there. Didn't think of that. One defender could indeed prevent the progression of the map by playing hide and seek. Just ignore my previous post

I was just thinking of a way to force the attackers to clear the cap.

I will not ignore it, feedback is welcome

Note that with the suggested tweak, the attackers don't have to clear the cap to the last man, but they should/would still clear the cap of most of the defenders. After all, the contested cap (A in the example) is right on the path to the next cap (B in the example). Ofcourse if the defenders have more people in the contested cap, the attackers will have to kill defenders in the cap to prevent recapture.

[Ducky]

Originally Posted by Proud_God

I will not ignore it, feedback is welcome

Note that with the suggested tweak, the attackers don't have to clear the cap to the last man, but they should/would still clear the cap of most of the defenders. After all the contested cap (A in the example) is right on the path to the next cap (B in the example). Ofcourse if the defenders have more people in the contested cap, the attackers will have to kill defenders in the cap to prevent recapture.

True

Now you need to trigger a dev to get it done

[TrOOper]

I like this system better than the current one!

[Holy.Death]

It's a very good idea. I support it.

[Trotskygrad]

/support

spawn protection is this almighty smiting hammer that has killed me one too many times.

[Mike_Nomad]

Originally Posted by Ducky

True

Now you need to trigger a dev to get it done

They'll know a good thing when they see it. I'm in too.

[LugNut]

I supports!

[Proud_God]

Glad you like it, thanks for the support guys!

[Holy.Death]

Your idea got me thinking about how to improve the cap zones to make the game play out more tactically in a natural way - current zones are very simple and can even discourage from playing properly, because some people are more willing to go into the cap zone to defend it/have points for killing people in it or for killing while staying inside the zone and they leave some key positions unguarded because of the desire for points which are to be found in the cap zone. It can work with your tweak of spawn system, I think. I'll write it down in a couple of hours when I'll get back, now it's time for some sleep.

[Mike_Nomad]

Originally Posted by Proud_God

Glad you like it, thanks for the support guys!

You are more than welcome - you're on the right track.