Sniper rifles in this game are COMPLETELY incorrect; answers please, TWI?

[ross]

This is going to be a long post as there are so many problems to go over, so bear with me. I'm posting this in I&S both so it gets exposure and as I am really just suggesting all this be fixed.

Scope warping/distortion effect - I get that you can do fancy stuff with shaders, but this effect does not exist. I have never seen any scope, WWII, modern, expensive, cheap, whatever - which warps the image around the edges of the scope so noticeably. From my own experience with WWII scopes, the image becomes very slightly blurred towards the margins of the scope, but does not warp or distort at all. The image should be completely flat.

This effect flat-out does not exist, you will not find a PU, PEM, ZF 39, Zielsechs, or even ZF 41 where this is the case (I am intentionally omitting the ZF 4 as this will be covered later). You literally will not. It is not a thing. I know the devs handled the actual weapons, but apparently they didn't bother to look through any period scopes... or any scopes at all... or they simply decided to bin realism and authenticity for an oh so cool effect that might appeal to the wider audience RO2 was aimed at, most of whom presumably know even less about optics.


Ingame PEM


Real PEM


Real Dialytan


Real PU (own photo, sorry for the poor quality).

Not only is this effect complete fantasy, but it is also really annoying to deal with as a sniper as it messes with your ability to spot targets around the edge of your sight picture and trips your own peripheral vision (not the game's, I actually mean the player's) when scenery around the edge of the scope suddenly changes shape.


The ZF 4 should not be in the game - The ZF 4 was designed alongside the G 43 and was not in service until well after the Battle of Stalingrad was concluded. To compound the issue, ingame it is mounted on the G 41. The only image I have found of a G 41 with a ZF 4 scope is this one, and there are two things you will immediately notice about this rifle:

1. The mount type is from the G 43, still in closed trials (not even in the field!) in February 1943.
2. The bolt carrier has been modified to prevent the charging handle (right side on G 41, left side on G 43) from interfering with the scope mount.

This rifle is a very limited prototype (less than 10 built, all post-Stalingrad) that spent time at Aberdeen Proving Grounds. No other examples of G 41/ZF 4 combinations have been found. The rifle was assembled in 1943, after Stalingrad.

However, you will notice that photo does not resemble the rifle ingame at all. Tripwire have gone one step further in eschewing authenticity for the 'cool factor', and invented this contraption:



Two things that are glaringly wrong with this rifle, aside from the obvious ZF 4:

1. The scope mount is a 1944 swept type, designed and used specifically for the Kar98k, and installed on rifles from the JP Sauer and Mauser Oberndorf (occasionally) factories. It's not even that common among the rifles it was designed for. It did not exist in any form in 1942, nor did it exist in 1943. It was made over a year after the Battle of Stalingrad ended, and would not fit a G 41 rifle without serious modification.
2. The scope is mounted so far forwards on the rifle that it actually would not work. For those not experienced with optical sights, they all have an 'eye relief' distance. Think of this like a very, very narrow cone of a finite length that your eye needs to be at the end of to see anything. Pull back outside it, or put your eye too close, and the size of the image contracts to a point, and eventually nothing. Each scope has its own eye relief distance. For the PU it is approximately 70mm - it varies very, very slightly based on the shooter's eyes. I cannot produce the ZF 4's offhand, but we can surmise that it is certainly much shorter than that by looking at ZF 4 mounting systems on both the G 43 and Kar98k:

Notice how they're both about the same, and the ocular end of the scope hangs just over the wrist of the stock? That is the proper eye relief for the ZF 4. Now look back at the G 41 ingame:



I wouldn't advocate anyone butchering an actual G 41 just to prove a point, but if any of you own a ZF 4, please hold it about that far forwards from your face and tell me what you see. If you have a useful sight picture I will write down my words on a sheet of paper, cut it up, shove it into my food and eat them. I am not kidding.

I made a thread about this completely ridiculous abandonment of even the most basic research, and got no answers from Tripwire. If you're going to include fantasy weapons in the game, at least try and come up with some kind of excuse.

To demonstrate eye relief, here are photos taken from too close and too far respectively, with my 1944 PU:






Several of the reticles are the wrong dimensions - this is most noticeable with the German scopes, they seem close enough for the Soviet ones.


ZF 39 reticle


Absehen Nr.4 (Zielsechs reticle ingame) - actual diagram of reticle here

These affect gameplay (especially the Nr.4) because the posts are blocking clear sight in areas they shouldn't be - it's not just a cosmetic change.


The Zielsechs doesn't have a proper model in first or third person view - Ingame, the Zielsechs functions fine, but looks externally identical to the ZF 39. This is incorrect. The Zielsechs is slightly longer, with a noticeably larger objective lens.



I would normally say 'oh, this is a minor cosmetic issue, it's not really that critical for now', but there are already purely cosmetic unlocks in the game (P 38 grips...) so it may as well be fixed sooner rather than later.


PU scope's and ZF 40/41 sight's field of view much too large - The PU is a very small scope and as a result, it has a narrow field of view. It also appears far too large onscreen - it should be much smaller. See again my photo, taken at eye relief distance (~70mm) with no zoom:



As it is ingame, the scope has far too large a field of view, and this problem is exacerbated by how much space it takes up on the screen.

This is also a problem with the ZF 41 now post-patch... the lenses on the real thing are miniscule. I get that people were complaining about it being useless before, but considering it was very poorly-suited to combat, is that really a bad thing? G 41 marksman's rifles were exceptionally rare anyway, and the less often they are seen in the game, the better. I would even be okay with increasing its proximity to the screen a little, but come on, this is just ridiculous:





Apparently since the patch, soldiers using the G 41 are equipped with either mechanical zooming mechanisms inside their eyes, or can pop them out of their head and move them several inches closer to the sight... at which your eye relief is incorrect, and your sight picture loses focus and clarity.


Reticle positioning and adjustment is incorrect - I am not sure if this applies to German scopes as well, but it is definitely a problem with Soviet scopes in the game. Standard practice was to angle the scope very slightly downwards in the mount, causing the reticle to sit high in the scope when zeroed to 100 metres. This is because the reticle of a real Soviet WWII scope moves a hell of a lot further with adjustment than it does ingame.



PE scope set at 100m, this position of the crosshair is common to all Soviet rifle scopes from WWII and if I had my PU on hand I'd post a photo of that too. My earlier photos were taken with the scope set to about 500m to centre the reticle. Here are photos at 100m and 1,300m respectively:





You can clearly see that my PU sits a little high of centre at 100m. The amount by which this occurs will vary between scopes, but it was part of standard procedure during the fitting of PE, PEM and PU scopes to 91/30s.

Note that my scope is not fitted to the rifle in these photos. When it is, you can just see a blurred arc in the lower fraction of the scope - the top of the front sight globe. It is present and clearly visible in the photo above my two.


Bayonets on sniper rifles are ridiculous and counter-productive - I have absolutely no idea what possessed Tripwire to add bayonets that cannot be removed at will to level 50 sniper rifles, but it was a downright awful idea. Yes, let me just poke this two foot long steel spike out of a window, even though the muzzle of my rifle itself is not hanging out at all. Using a level 25 sniper rifle is not a solution to this, I want to use the (historically correct for Stalingrad) side-mounted PEM scope. I should not be forced to use a different scope just to avoid having my already long rifle made even longer. It is just ridiculous.

The only photo I have ever seen of a sniper with bayonet fixed was a posed shot of Maxim Passar, and he was just sitting there, not even shooting. Find me a photo of a sniper actually in combat with their bayonet fixed and, again, I will literally eat my words.

That's it for now, but I'll probably be adding to this thread later. Most of these 'mistakes' (honestly several of them seem deliberate) could have been avoided by ten seconds' worth of research, there is no excuse for leaving them in a game which still makes the claim of being 'historically authentic' and 'realistic'. I would expect better from mainstream shooters, let alone this game.

Full credit for spotting errors with German scopes goes to Unus Offa, Unus Nex

[Sarkis.]

I did not read yet, but i'm sure is full of scoped win. Tripwire should take a look. Off to reading now, hope i'm correct

Yeah... bet I am

[Sarkis.]

I also want to use the (historically correct for Stalingrad) side-mounted PEM scope. No bayonets attached

Great post

[r5cya]

that g41 looks silly. looks like a scout scope setup.

[ross]

I should probably note that this doesn't even begin to go into the incorrect markings and so on seen on the weapons' textures (the 91/30 PU's mount, for example). I can deal with that. I can't deal with my scope being functionally nerfed by made-up bullcrap.

[Lord_Lovat]

very nice read Ross! And I agree fully with your post. Specially the shader effect should be removed!

[Trotskygrad]

agree, that warping effect is really annoying.

[Sarkis.]

90 Second Paintball Sniper - Scopes, Crosshairs and Eye Relief - YouTube

[ross]

Updated OP to include new information about the G 41. Turns out the picture linked was apparently a one-off assembled in 1943 and captured after the war, making it even rarer than the already ridiculous 6x SVT scope (produced in miniscule numbers and never used in regular service). The ingame setup is still not only wrong, but so wrong it wouldn't work. New info does nothing to excuse its inclusion in the game, just a little tidbit of history worth including.

[Unus Offa, Unus Nex]

The 6x PU scope never left the prototype testing stage, and that simply because it proved unsatisfactory. Around six to eight examples were assembled, none of them seeing use outside the testing range.

The Russians had issues producing scopes with magnifications higher than 4x due to their limited know how within lense manufacturing techniques and equipment. They had bought some manufacturing equipment from Zeiss before the war, with which they produced their first PEM scopes, however they soon ran out of spare parts for these machines and they lacked the know how that had went into making them.

As such the Russians had to design a scope that could be produced using their own manufacturing equipment, and it had to provide an acceptable amount of magnification & clarity. The result was the PU scope, which out of necessity was kept extremely simple, as in order to try and maintain an acceptable clarity and brightness of picture a minimal amount of lenses (the size of which had to be small to reduce distortion), were used; A limitation imposed by the manufacturing equipment available. The downside was a scope with a very restricted FOV, narrow eye relief sweet spot, and severely limited light gathering capability. On the plus side the scope itself was small, rugged and exceedingly easy to manufacture.

[Gopblin]

Awesome read, thank you

Best wishes,
Daniel

[ross]

Did the Germans set their crosshairs in the centre of the scope as seen ingame, or set them high like the Soviets?

Also, with regards to the PU - the version seen ingame is completely incorrect in late 1942/early 1943. At this point they were still installing SVT scopes with re-numbered turrets:



The scope is not only different in profile (due to the cuts made for the much longer rings on the SVT mount), but also bears its markings in a different position - usually the top front, between the rings.

The version shown ingame is the version specifically manufactured for the 91/30.

[Unus Offa, Unus Nex]

Originally Posted by ross

Did the Germans set their crosshairs in the centre of the scope as seen ingame, or set them high like the Soviets?

There is no specific range where each reticule has to center, it depends on how each scope was calibrated. I've owned five PU's myself, and each centered at a different range. Some abit high like yours, others almost centered at 100m as-well. In short it varies from scope to scope.

The German scope reticules are generally centered at around 200-300 m, depending on scope type.

[schepp himself]

I didn't know all of that, either, so thanks for enlighten me!

I would love to see Tripwire implement those suggested changes, but am far from being pissed about it. Speaks for the community that they find out stuff!

Greets
Schepp himself

[captain pain]

I&S posts don't get any better than this, folks.

Please heed this man's words, TWI.

[Andrew Blake]

Good post Ross! I hope they fix these.

[fitzgibd]

Great post - I cannot understand why the makers of RO2 have made these choices...

This website (you may well know it) backs up everything you have said.
http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Red_Orches..._of_Stalingrad

If the game was called RO3 The Fall of Berlin, some of the options would be OK. Are there any custom maps/servers that remove some of the more ludicrous weapons?


fitzgibd

[ross]

Jumped on an empty server yesterday to confirm my suspicions about the ZF 40/41 post-patch; was not disappointed (well, I was, but not in that sense). Updated OP.

Will be going shooting this weekend, so I'll try get better PU photos.

e/ Oh yeah and fun trivia I didn't bother to include since the whole getup is complete BS anyway, but the ZF 4 ingame is scaled too small as well, hahaha kill me now

[Sarkis.]

I think we deserve an answer on this one. Will take a no for an answer as well, but the sniper modelling situation as a whole is a messy one. And not only that, classic's loadout is terrible, I'm serious. RO2 opened the possibility to spawn with certain enemy weapons that were common in Stalingrad, specifically enemy submachine guns, there is nothing of that in classic. But on the other hand we have weapons that never existed, germans don't get belts for the MG34, the russian sniper scope should be the PEM and not the PU, even the PE is ok too. They should take a look at my loadout, and at least copy it's mindset..
The distortion on the scope has to go, is probably just a line somewhere just waiting to be 0 instead of 1. And everything else that ross mentioned here could have a looksye.

Tripwire's loyal fans want genuine Stalingrad gear. I cannot stress this enough:

Red Orchestra 2 Heroes of Stalingrad

This message is not only mine or ross's, and it has got to get through. Is any Developer out there listening ?

EA in a Nutshell - YouTube

[eM*]

Great post, pleasure to read. Showing Tripwire has no idea what are they doing (again). I guess they aim at Call of Duty fans, who dont complain at all, and would be even happy to have tanks with supressor mounted on the turret .