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View Poll Results: Would you like RO CLASSIC to be the only mode? (e.i all other modes gets removed)
Yes, classic should be the only mode and all others removed 51 26.98%
No, this is not a good idea 130 68.78%
Neither yes or no, I have another suggestion 1 0.53%
I don't care 7 3.70%
Voters: 189. You may not vote on this poll

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  #21  
Old 04-27-2012, 03:20 PM
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I voted for Classic only, because I think it's the decision that should have been made at the beginning of development. And since it's a poll that doesn't mean anything.
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  #22  
Old 04-27-2012, 06:26 PM
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Quite interesting. Arma 2, which requires a supercomputer to run, were filled with up with bugs, glitches, unstable gameplay at release. Extremely complex, very clunky, learning curve is extremely steep compared to other games. Still it got more players, mods, and critics gives it a higher score, players aswell.


Codemasters false Operation Flashpoint series was indeed rubbish which can be seen by the user reviews. But these reviews are mostly based on ''its not like ofp cwc'' (the first flashpoint was not developed by codemasters either). Reason why most people bought dragon rising (1.2 million gamers) is obvious: it was called operation flashpoint. Then when they realized it wasnt like cwc, they ditched it, hence one of the reasons to why red river struggled to sell even 100,000 copies in the EU.

First, look at least for the first two minutes in this video and listen to what he say.

Operation Flashpoint: Red River Interview with Sion Lenton - YouTube


Then look at the critic reviews. Quoted PC gamer.



Coincidence?

Point to stress is; increased accessibility ain't gonna help red orchestra. I don't know if TWI have realized this though. The only way to make ro accessible would be to go full out. This is another reason to why there only should be one (or maybe two) modes. But maybe its to late. I dont know. I do know that a good amount of people still play OST and DH, and my answer to why is often because ro2 is not good enough.

What's other peoples take on this?
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I would rather blowtorch my nipples off than play Action Mode.

Last edited by Cyper; 04-27-2012 at 06:29 PM.
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  #23  
Old 04-27-2012, 06:49 PM
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My take is, I don't actually care what review sites say, they can't tailor the reviews to my personal taste in games so I can't really go off of them.


Please please please please fucking please remeber that alot of these reviews were on the game during the very first month of its release. The low user score is mainly caused by the bugs that were in at the start of the game and people going "omg this game has bugs run away". Had these people been able to re-review the game as it is now, it would score much higher.

Last edited by Cwivey; 04-27-2012 at 07:06 PM. Reason: Added "alot of", some of the reviews are more recent.
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  #24  
Old 04-27-2012, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyper
What's other peoples take on this?
Take a closer look on those reviews - their overall number, how many are positive and negative. Then take a look on exact scores given by the players: they're heavily polarised and people seem to either like it or hate it (0, 2 vs 8, 10 is a good example). In the end opinion is mixed; one player might like it, the other won't and it's up to individual taste. You need also to remember that reviews are very subjective - who is more right, a man who gave the game 0 or 10? Whom should you listen to? Who is more objective? In the end it's up to you to decide.
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  #25  
Old 04-27-2012, 07:46 PM
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Cyper, stop with the pure bred crap. We need the other modes to make classic better and other features/vehicles/maps made faster and with more detail.

Here, have this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krobar View Post
Here's what I assume the science behinds this is: Action mode + free weekends attracts players, players that are used to spending $15 on 3 maps, who will throw any amount of money at something they like, these people fund TW to continue making awesome games that are realistic and in some cases maybe not so much. This also allows them to hire more people to create things faster and with more detail and debugging.

So if you try to stop action mode, you're only hurting the other aspects of the game more.
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  #26  
Old 04-28-2012, 04:47 AM
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True krobar, but if they were successful with the action mode, why would they put more resources in the classic and realism mode? There is alot more money in the casual gamebase.

They have already proved what gamebase they would go for if they could.
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  #27  
Old 04-28-2012, 08:39 AM
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I admit my opinion on this is mixed and shifted somewhat, but I voted NO both out of self interest and a larger idea. When they initially announced Classic mode I thought it was not good to split the game into more dramatically different flavors, for a couple reasons (that maybe were not good). Part of it was to have a game where each decision affects everyone that plays it, not just some for each "faction" of opinion. That would mean changes would tend to be less extreme unless there was unanimity. I realize this is not exactly the same motive as the OP

Having seen changes to Realism and Classic in the Beta, and knowing about the potentially upcoming Action mode, my opinion has changed. For self-interest reasons, I voted NO because I realize I'm a fan of Realism mode, not Classic mode. Others are fans of some things of one and others of the other. Boiling that down to a more core principle, you can't really just take Classic mode as it is now and erase that much of the original gameplay and features. Because, let's recognize that Classic mode is basically reductive. It's doesn't really add to the game or even merely tweak it . It removes or applies austerity to original features from the game(on the other hand many improvements have been made to Realism mode without totally scrapping the things they changed). Lockdown: gone. Shift Zoom: gone. Leveling and upgrades: gone. Spawn on SL: gone. etc...

The argument about fracturing low player numbers is moot. Because if you shave the game down to only one mode that by the way a significant chunk of the current playerbase (you know, the people that actually play the game?) doesn't necessarily like...Personally I think what you'll see is not significantly higher player numbers because almost as many people will leave as return to the game for Classic mode. You're not going to lock significant throngs Classic dislikers into playing a game they no longer enjoy. They'll leave just like the Classic crowd did. You'll have the same problem, with just a different game and different players worrying over the numbers and a different group of players whining that they uninstalled the game.

That's not a good idea.

Last edited by MarioBava; 04-28-2012 at 08:42 AM.
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  #28  
Old 04-28-2012, 08:53 AM
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Voted no as I'm not so sure Classic is the magical be-all-end-all I figured it would be at first. I'd rather see Realism altered than an attempt to create RO1 with better graphics, which (currently) is the impression I've been given by playing Classic. Not a terrible thing, but certainly not a good thing when there were some great ideas that just needed better implementation and have now been cut out of that mode.
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  #29  
Old 04-28-2012, 09:19 AM
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Oh Cyper this is rich. What happened to this sentiment? From this post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyper View Post
For the ones who doesn't want a new game mode - use selfcontrol and don't play it then. No one forces you.

Fragment the already minuscule community???

A new gamemode will rather tie the community together agian. It will make more people play it. This is clearly what most people want on this board. If you're worried that it will scare off the mainstream, don't worry, RO2 have already done that. Its a game far removed from the mainstream type of videogames. The horrid playerdrop wasn't BFs fault, or Cods fault, or only the crashes, unstable gameplay, or the lags fault, it was TWIs own fault with their ridiculous promises of an accessible tactical shooter that promised gold and flowers to everyone. Otherwise most of the players should have return by now. But they haven't and they wont. RO2 is neither a mainstream game or a true sequel to RO OST.
EDIT: And for the record, I personally disagree with the proposed "Action Mode" unless possibly if it replaces relaxed realism.

Last edited by Coopsta; 04-28-2012 at 09:22 AM.
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  #30  
Old 04-28-2012, 09:34 AM
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This community suffered a HUGE disaster when so many versions of the game came out. Stick to what RO:OST bought us. There are plenty of other games out there where a computer can play while someone watches.
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  #31  
Old 04-28-2012, 09:46 AM
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The people who enjoy the relaxed realism mode have the same right to play and enjoy their favourite gamemode as the people who enjoy classic mode.

You should be glad that TW is a Company who takes the effort to change their game. Other companies would have given up months ago, collected their money and would release another rehash update game one year later.
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  #32  
Old 04-28-2012, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coopsta View Post
EDIT: And for the record, I personally disagree with the proposed "Action Mode" unless possibly if it replaces relaxed realism.
Action mode will replace the Relaxed Realism mode.

But, the Realism mode may be modified to be closer to what the current Relaxed Realism mode is like now (by server admins) so people who like the Relaxed Realism mode now shouldn't be left out.
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  #33  
Old 04-30-2012, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Holy.Death View Post
Take a closer look on those reviews - their overall number, how many are positive and negative. Then take a look on exact scores given by the players: they're heavily polarised and people seem to either like it or hate it (0, 2 vs 8, 10 is a good example). In the end opinion is mixed; one player might like it, the other won't and it's up to individual taste. You need also to remember that reviews are very subjective - who is more right, a man who gave the game 0 or 10? Whom should you listen to? Who is more objective? In the end it's up to you to decide.
It's not about who is right or wrong, of course. My point was not to tell the reason behind the score. Point to stress is, that the general score for RO2 - from both the players point of view, and the critics point of view, have drastically dropped. Reviews from critics and users plays an important role when it comes to marketing. Its less likely that people will buy the game if they see the overall score. Its also less likely that the people who have this opinion will be interested in future products from TWI.

TWIs effort to make the game more accessible did not work out which can be understood by reading the reviews and opinion about the game and looking the the huge player dro since release. On the other hand, by far the most inaccessible game out there, arma, got a higher score both from critics and players - even despite the fact that it is a buggy mess. I don't think this is a coninsidence. I believe its just the effect that may come when you focus to make one audience happy. The same pattern was seen with Codemasters OFP series.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Coopsta View Post
Oh Cyper this is rich. What happened to this sentiment? From this post

EDIT: And for the record, I personally disagree with the proposed "Action Mode" unless possibly if it replaces relaxed realism.
I still agree with that statement.

The more modes you have the more it will split the community. I do believe Classic Mode does not qualify into that category though. First off, I did not get what I expected or wanted from RO2, and now its very obvious that a lot of people feel the same. Without speaking of right or wrong, the changes TWI did with the Red Orchestra franchise caused major fractions within the community. RO Classic isn't something that popped up from the thin air. It is the community who is the driving force behind it. This mode, if any mode, will not fragment the community further simply because it was the community's own wish. Action Mode, Relaxed Realism, Realism mode - these mode were never requested neither from the community or the mainstream. All the bullpoo that accessibility includes, were not the communities wish, it was a try from TWI to attract a new audience on the expense of the niche audience and they did succeed with that - in short term;; 10,000 active MP players at release is not a bad number.
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I would rather blowtorch my nipples off than play Action Mode.
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  #34  
Old 04-30-2012, 07:15 AM
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Bit of a carry-on over nothing here. Play the beta, give feedback on what you like, when it goes into production find a server you and your friends like and have fun.

That is all.
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  #35  
Old 04-30-2012, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyper View Post
The thought crossed my mind while reading another thread. I realize this whole idea may seem very far removed, and maybe even unrealistic, but I would still like to hear other peoples opinion about it. I am not creating this thread with the thought that I would persuade the majority but rather to make people absorb and reflect about this idea. So there is no need for anyone to get bleedy about it.

The reason why this idea crossed my mind in the first place was because of action mode. I believe all different modes creates fractions within the community, and I believe the more modes you have, the more fractions you get and there is indeed many modes in this game. The question is whenever they're usefull for the game or not. How many people play Relaxed Realism? How many people will play Action Mode? Realism Mode? How many will play Classic? And who does all this modes aim at? One thing is for sure: each mode steals players from the other. Simplicity would ultimately be only to have one mode - that is RO CLASSIC - but not called Ro Classic. Not called anything at all. Just multiplayer and that's it. Sometimes Red Orchestra is just red orchestra; not action, not relaxed, not realistic, not classic.
Countdown, FireFight and Territory all steal players from one another too, but it's tolerated.

I seriously can not understand how you could even create such a thread coming from the position you have been in since the beginning of RO2's launch. But before I get into that, I'll answer a couple of your above questions:

I play both Relaxed Realism and Realism (As they Are)

I have zero interest in RO Classic, and I certainly am not fond of the idea of this Action Mode replacing Relaxed Realism..... and if/when that does happen, I won't be playing that anymore than I will be playing RO Classic, which will be never, as I will purposely avoid both.

Now back to the point I was going to make above:

From the very beginning, you have been going on and on and on about having an RO Classic game mode or something similar, and you basically refused to play the game until there was something like that in the game.

I didn't like the idea, or most of your ideas towards back tracking to RO1 game play as I didn't like 95% of the game play in RO1. Like you are with RO2, I was much the same with RO1..... the difference is that I didn't go on a crusade to revamp the entire game's structure to suit my interests.

Then when TW decided to work on this RO Classic to please you and your group of players (or anti-players), I said good.... I wished you all luck in that this game mode would suit your needs and it would be something you would enjoy, even though I knew it would further splinter the community and available servers that I can play on (with the game modes I like)

Now that you have what you want....... you're still not satisfied and want to keep going further to step on everybody else's toes and suggest that TW go and scrap everything else and force everybody to play RO Classic Game Mode as if all of us even wanted to in the first damn place.

You know what that's going to do?

Nothing.... Nothing in that it's just going to reverse the situation and make it that you and your little group of buddies will be playing all the time and the rest of us who were already happy with the game as it was, decide to leave and stop playing because what we actually liked is now Gone.

And that makes sense to you, how?

Because having Action Mode, Realism Mode and RO Classic (+ CD, FF & TE) all split the community and create factions of players?

Well if that's the case, maybe TW should have never even bothered with RO Classic or Action Modes in the first place and left things well enough alone as they were.

But they didn't..... they decided to cater to your demands and the demands of those wanting this Action Mode..... further reducing the available servers I had to play on that used Relaxed Realism and Realism Game Modes...... the servers I had to choose from are not just going to be cut by 1/3 because of RO Classic, but by 2/3's because of this Action Mode Idea.

And if you had your way, you'd have everybody be forced to play RO Classic, whether we wanted to or not..... cutting my available servers right down to Zero.

This all came to you because of Action Mode and you're worried that it will split the community more than it already is?

How come you didn't come to this epiphany when TW announced RO Classic??

Oh that's right.... because you finally were getting what you wanted and now you're further exposing your own selfish character even more. You didn't care about what others liked in the game and continually fought and demanded to have the game mode you wanted, regardless of what it would do towards splitting the community..... then you got that and instead of being satisfied with what you got, you now decide to suggest that everybody should be forced to play what you've been crying for since the start..... blaming any divisions in the player base on this Action Mode, while not even acknowledging that your precious RO Classic does the exact same thing.

Actually RO Classic is worse..... Action Mode is just replacing one existing game mode, which means it doesn't further split the community.... yet RO Classic is an additional game mode and does directly split the community further.

So instead of two game modes, we now have three. Instead of having two similar game modes and one very different game mode, we now will have three distinct game modes.

I've come to terms with the fact that we're going to have both this RO Classic game mode and this Action Game mode, even though I am still greatly concerned that I won't have many servers to choose from with the game mode I enjoy (Realism)...... but you?

You want to toss everything out the window and suggest everybody should just be stuck to playing one game mode and that's it...... The Game Mode YOU like.

Me thinks not.

What is it with you anyways?

Back before they announced RO Classic, you were trying to fight for them to scrap the entire game system RO2 had to suit your demands and your tastes for RO1..... I even tried to meet you halfway and suggest that if you want something like that, it should be in an additional game mode so that the rest of us can keep playing what we want.

Now TW did that and it's still not good enough for you, in that here you are still trying to fight to force everybody to play what you want them to play.

Guess what?

Not all of us like your ideas.... Not all of us like RO Classic..... Not all of us want to be bound into playing what you want us to play, so give it up already.

You asked for our opinion..... you got it.
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  #36  
Old 04-30-2012, 08:34 AM
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^^^^
+1
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  #37  
Old 04-30-2012, 08:46 AM
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It just got a whole lot warmer in here! *pulls collar*

Player fragmentation is just going to be a fact of RO2's life from now on IMHO and it can't be consolidated without some noses getting knocked out of joint (most temporarily, some permanently).

One year from now I confidently predict that the only RO2 modes you'll see with people playing will be ROC and Realism.
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  #38  
Old 04-30-2012, 08:58 AM
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Just started Realism again, so DEFINITELY not.

Realism seems all more realistic than classic IMO. Classic limits you in almost every way. Realism is fast, but war was and still is very fast. I don't mind playing Classic, but for it to be the only mode is not a good idea.
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  #39  
Old 04-30-2012, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyper
TWIs effort to make the game more accessible did not work out which can be understood by reading the reviews and opinion about the game and looking the the huge player dro since release. On the other hand, by far the most inaccessible game out there, arma, got a higher score both from critics and players - even despite the fact that it is a buggy mess. I don't think this is a coninsidence. I believe its just the effect that may come when you focus to make one audience happy. The same pattern was seen with Codemasters OFP series.
It's not that simple.

Yes, you can make one audience happy and make review score high because review will be written by people playing the game. People who will buy, play and review hardcore titles are few (when you compare them with other player bases), so they'll be mostly written by enthusiasts and keep the score up. Such high score is, in a way, fake. Because when reviews are written by the people who like the game then they tend to give it higher notes than the other people. The other people who won't play hardcore games.

With RO2 situation is different; note that positive reviews are not highly different from ARMA 2. What's different is number of negative opinions - game itself isn't bad (is at least as good as ARMA 2), but polarize people much more, because it has created a schizm within the player base. That is (was?) the main problem of the game, the forums and the score. People didn't really focus to evaluate RO2 - some liked it, some rejected it outright for not being true to their image of RO. This means that score is biased as is not basing on objective notes but on subjective opinions on each reviewer.

I stopped paying attention to critic reviews and pay little attention to users reviews for this extact reason. Because both aren't worth anything in the end when people can't be just. What matters is you and your own opinion as it's something you can trust.

That's why I ask people around what they think and pay attention to those who give both pros and cons; they seem to be more objective and can give me an overview of the game. I can't agree that score on metacritic is proof of anything really. Look at our friend Poerisija who managed to give the game 0 when he gave it 10 on the release. It says something about him and about the value of such places where everyone can review everything.

You make it all sound simple, that TWI should stick only to their niche like BIS, but it's more complicated. TWI made a good game, but it was buggy, lacked many features, wasn't fulfilling hopes of the Old Guard (now they can be, with Classic mode) and so on. Not optimistic condition of the multiplayer (number of players) in comparison to other games is the result of many combined factors. Not just a single fact you point out.

Keep that in mind.

P.S. How many people even care to write down a review of the game they play in? I for sure don't. I either play or not.

Last edited by Holy.Death; 04-30-2012 at 09:37 AM.
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  #40  
Old 04-30-2012, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpt-Praxius View Post
----- snip -----

Guess what?

Not all of us like your ideas.... Not all of us like RO Classic..... Not all of us want to be bound into playing what you want us to play, so give it up already.

You asked for our opinion..... you got it.
I agree....

Cyper;
Get the idea?? Its an "off the wall concept!"
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