HoE: Remove spawn items completely?

[Undedd Jester]

Why would we want this?

Well the main reason I thought of it is I hate exploiters with a passion, and I'm sure if you really think about it you all do too.

There is nothing that annoys me more than seeing a player who is clearly crap at the game getting a clear advantage by suiciding to get extra crossbows to sell, or free pipe bombs to stack every wave over and over. However that aside, I think spawning weapons simply makes the game too easy.



I figure since HoE is the "hold onto your butts" mode, why not remove weapon spawns completely? Players already get alot of discount, and money management and actual tactics would suddenly become key to beating the game.

Money management is a fantastic feature of any game in my mind. Counter Strike, League Of Legends and of course low level Killing Floor were all great for it. With this feature players might start to think:
- "Should I buy myself that SCAR early or should I give my money to the Demo to make sure he can afford some pipes for Wave 7?".
Or even,
- "Our Sharpshooter is going to be crucial for Level 5, rather than upgrading to the Mp5M I should make sure he can afford enough Xbow bolts".

The lower level weapons such as the much loved Bullpup, or M79 (I see alot of players skip it and go straight for the M32), even the Mp7M, would suddenly have a place in the game, as players will need to work up to buying the bigger ones.

If not as an addition to the vanilla game, I think this could be a great mutator

[Sir Razor]

I think this would be terrible in practice, however nice it sounds.
Especially pub matches, with half your team dying on a wave, joining halfway through, etc.

People have enough trouble cooperating as it is. If they struggle to get their primary weapon, they won't feel anywhere near secure enough to consider sharing money with others, resulting in constant wipes and ragequitting.

[C_Gibby]

I'm not sure I agree fully, bro.

I mean this in the most respectful way possible, but you often seem to forget that HOE is actually meant to be beatable.

But I do see your point here, I really do. I just don't think they should be completely removed. But if they were, it'd give +1 reason to make pistol weapons less of a sharpshooter exclusive.

Another cool compromise would be to make level 6 players spawn with level 5 gear instead, with a partial increase in ammo.

[Althamus]

Actually, I saw this topic and instantly thought "Bleh", but after reading it, you do have a very good point.

I normally play sharp, and play with at least one friend. I can play with a 9mm and Xbow, so the first 3-4 waves or whatever I'll throw him my money and suicide. By W3, he's got his perfect gear, and W4 he'll throw whatever money back at me again and I'll normally be able to buy my perfect gear as well.

There's no sense of money problems whatsoever. The early waves I've got plenty of cash, and even from W2, my friend will normally have about £1K-£1.5 to spend on cash in the trader time, which will get him whatever weapons he wants.

And apart from the challenge, there's no logical reason not to do this either. Even if I'm playing in random games without anyone I know, sometimes I'll do the trick anyways and throw my money at someone who looks sensible just to give the team more dosh in general.

Taking away the ability to spawn with weapons would actually add the whole scrabbling for money back into the game again. And especially on HoE, teams will live or die depending on whether they work together to pool their money to whoever needs it rather than spending it frivilously.

Although I'd suggest it as a mutator that can be activated or deactivated on any mode. HoE is already hard enough, I wouldn't want to enforce extra difficulties for everyone on it unless they wanted to.

[BenioX]

How about just change the weapon spawns for lvl 5 and 6? What I mean is for example like this:
Zerker lvl 5 -> Machete
Zerker lvl 6 -> Axe
Medic (both lvls no change)
Sharpshooter lvl 5 -> deagle
Sharpshooter lvl 6 -> dual deagle
Commando lvl 5 -> Bullpup (no change)
Commando lvl 6 -> M4
Firebug lvl 5 -> Mac10
Firebug lvl 6 -> Mac10 and/or Flamethrower (no kevlar)
Support lvl 5 -> Shotty
Support lvl 6 -> Combat Shotty
Demolition lvl 5 -> M79
Demolition lvl 6 -> M32

[Benjamin]

I'm not sure about removing spawn weapons (since joining late game would be suicide), and I'm not sure about altering the spawn weapons since that'd cause a lot of confusion.

Perhaps a good solution is to only let the player spawn with a weapon if he died during the wave?

[C_Gibby]

Originally Posted by Benjamin

I'm not sure about removing spawn weapons (since joining late game would be suicide), and I'm not sure about altering the spawn weapons since that'd cause a lot of confusion.

Perhaps a good solution is to only let the player spawn with a weapon if he died during the wave?

Maybe.

I just have a feeling that it'd result in mass suicide at the beginning of each game, before the wave begins.

[Spicy]

There's already enough money to build pipe walls in Hell on Earth even if your demo and sharpshooter's aren't suiciding for pipes and crossbows/ money. Do you mean just spawning with weapons, or also weapons spawning on the map? Because that would add a small increase to challenge as well. It'd make a nice mutator.

M79/ M32 is what I usually use for demo. Keep M32 and some hand grenades for Fleshpounds, M79 for groups of Clots and Crawlers.

I don't get why players are writing off the MP7 though. Sure, the MP5 recharges faster but it *feels* (subjective, implies an opinion D: ) easier to lose control of ammo with. Maybe it's the 64-round magazine? It just screams "spam me!" The MP7's nice for popping faces.

[Undedd Jester]

Originally Posted by C_Gibby

I mean this in the most respectful way possible, but you often seem to forget that HOE is actually meant to be beatable.

But I do see your point here, I really do. I just don't think they should be completely removed. But if they were, it'd give +1 reason to make pistol weapons less of a sharpshooter exclusive.

Another cool compromise would be to make level 6 players spawn with level 5 gear instead, with a partial increase in ammo.

Its cool bro, I am posing it more as a question, funny thing is I'm crap at the game now myself, I used to be able to sit with a team, limit my builds and boss HoE, but nowadays I every now and again miss a headshot on a gorefast and then waste 6 shots panic firing at him

The only difference between me and alot of other players is I refuse to embrace the fact I'm so sloppy now and won't use the easy win tactics on moral principle

Ofc the less extreme version of this idea is to say everyone gets a tier 2 item and thats it. e.g.
Medic - Armour
Support - Pump-action Shotgun
Commando - Bullpup
Sharpshooter - LAR
Firebug - Mac-10
Berserker - Axe
Demo - ... double nades? M79 seems a bit generous compared to everyone else, then again I suppose the Demo does cost more money overall.

[vealck]

Spawn with no weapons = everybody spawns as a beserker or sharpshooter due to bonuses for basic weapons. Also, people will farm money in other ways, like on damage healing.

[BenioX]

Originally Posted by vealck

Also, people will farm money in other ways, like on damage healing.

That also should be prevented... like maybe max 3 heals give money during when is same zed count, so people wouldnt leave 1 zed and power-heal.

[Major Liability]

If you did that even MORE people would spawn as berserker. Berserker knife > anything else for wave 1. You can just stand in place and get instant decapitations while your team watches.

[BenioX]

Originally Posted by Major Liability

If you did that even MORE people would spawn as berserker. Berserker knife > anything else for wave 1. You can just stand in place and get instant decapitations while your team watches.

nerf a knife?

[Althamus]

Originally Posted by vealck

Spawn with no weapons = everybody spawns as a beserker or sharpshooter due to bonuses for basic weapons. Also, people will farm money in other ways, like on damage healing.

Actually, you make a very good point.

Sharp with 9mm and LAR can kill anything under a FP with ease. Zerker with katana can kill anything except a sc with ease. Add an axe, and they can kill anything. Maybe add a LAR once you have more money than you know what to do with.

Both can be made for £300-£500, and have maintenance costs of almost nothing.

Compared to that, buying AAs for £1K+, M32s, SCARs etc. Even on-perk are real pricey.

[BenioX]

Originally Posted by Althamus

Actually, you make a very good point.

Sharp with 9mm and LAR can kill anything under a FP with ease. Zerker with katana can kill anything except a sc with ease. Add an axe, and they can kill anything. Maybe add a LAR once you have more money than you know what to do with.

Both can be made for £300-£500, and have maintenance costs of almost nothing.

Compared to that, buying AAs for £1K+, M32s, SCARs etc. Even on-perk are real pricey.

Maybe raise katana and axe price?

[nutterbutter]

Originally Posted by Undedd Jester

I figure since HoE is the "hold onto your butts" mode, why not remove weapon spawns completely? Players already get alot of discount, and money management and actual tactics would suddenly become key to beating the game.

I hate people who suicide to get weapons and cash, but unfortunately that is what happens. The problem with not spawning with a weapon is someone who joins late. The other players could give him cash, but if they are funneling money to the demo already or if they just gave their money to a player who joined earlier, then the new player could very well be a hindrance for a couple waves.

I don't like it either, but it isn't an easy thing to fix.

Originally Posted by BenioX

How about just change the weapon spawns for lvl 5 and 6? What I mean is for example like this:
Zerker lvl 5 -> Machete
Zerker lvl 6 -> Axe
Medic (both lvls no change)
Sharpshooter lvl 5 -> deagle
Sharpshooter lvl 6 -> dual deagle
Commando lvl 5 -> Bullpup (no change)
Commando lvl 6 -> M4
Firebug lvl 5 -> Mac10
Firebug lvl 6 -> Mac10 and/or Flamethrower (no kevlar)
Support lvl 5 -> Shotty
Support lvl 6 -> Combat Shotty
Demolition lvl 5 -> M79
Demolition lvl 6 -> M32

The thread is about preventing spawn exploiting and your reply is to provide spawning players with even more expensive weapons to sell?

Originally Posted by Undedd Jester

Ofc the less extreme version of this idea is to say everyone gets a tier 2 item and thats it. e.g.
Medic - Armour
Support - Pump-action Shotgun
Commando - Bullpup
Sharpshooter - LAR
Firebug - Mac-10
Berserker - Axe
Demo - ... double nades? M79 seems a bit generous compared to everyone else, then again I suppose the Demo does cost more money overall.

My suggestion for weapon spawning is lvl 5 gets lowest tier 2 weapon and lvl 6 gets lowest tier 2 weapon and armor.

Originally Posted by vealck

Spawn with no weapons = everybody spawns as a beserker or sharpshooter due to bonuses for basic weapons. Also, people will farm money in other ways, like on damage healing.

Late joiners get screwed that way.

[BenioX]

Originally Posted by nutterbutter

The thread is about preventing spawn exploiting and your reply is to provide spawning players with even more expensive weapons to sell?

I fail to see those are more xpensive weapons. Check again the original spawn weapons prices and then the newly suggested ones. Only demo and support I see maybe a bit by price are upper, but from the other hand those I suggested are weapons which aren't as "useful" as those they spawn with already, for example Hunting - typical Support has AA12 and Hunting loadout, noone uses Combat shotty really. Well, the demo originally has the pipes which they spawn with and put, then suicide and put even more. And well, I use LAW not M79/32 so I think it's not really something good for me in this suggestion is it?

[poosh]

I've already suggested once to make spawn items cost nothing. This could be applied on HoE only. So you just couldn't raise any money for anything you get for free (this could be applied also on items spawned on the map).

But from the other side, there are a lot of money on HoE even without exploiting. Currently I'm participating in KF tournament, where main rules are "1 player per perk" and "no suicide for money". And even with those rules in the end of wave 10 we get so much money so we can afford 3 demos fully equipped with pipes at PAT wave.

[BenioX]

Originally Posted by poosh

But from the other side, there are a lot of money on HoE even without exploiting. Currently I'm participating in KF tournament, where main rules are "1 player per perk" and "no suicide for money". And even with those rules in the end of wave 10 we get so much money so we can afford 3 demos fully equipped with pipes at PAT wave.

Crap, so you made it past wave 10?
Heh, you know how me and my team played... and of course I took all blames...

[poosh]

Originally Posted by BenioX

Crap, so you made it past wave 10?
Heh, you know how me and my team played... and of course I took all blames...

We would made it without any player death, if I'd noticed that stalker next to me and hadn't blown my *** up with M79 in wave 4