Suppression Style (With Poll)

[Nikita]

Originally Posted by luciferintears

the current suppression doesnt really suppress me it just turns my screen black n white and gives me an eyestrain.

i'm perfectly capible of continuing doing whatever it was that i was doing. I'd rather the screen shake slightly with each passing bullet at FULL suppression and possibly with some blurred edges to distort your prepheral vision.

but making the screen black and white does not make me incapible of fighting back. however the overal suppression system needs to be fixed. i dont understand why i get suppresed when my teammate standing 20ft away from me fires a shot or when arty is hitting the ground 15miles away.

This is exactly what current suppression in the beta does. Bullets passing by cause your avatar to flinch, throwing off your aim when you are in iron sights. Sway is also increased. Give me an MG34 and I challenge you to hit me at anything over 75 yards when I'm shooting at you.

The flinch effect can be caused by friendly fire OR enemy fire, as well as explosions from grenades, satchels, tank shells, and artillery. It occurs whether a bullet flies past you OR when bullets impact cover around you. Suppression (without the flinch) also occurs when a teammate is killed in close proximity to you.

Obviously, no map in RO2 has ranges even close to 15 miles. Artillery has a suppressive impact MAYBE if a round hits within 30 meters--which is perfectly realistic, given the concussive blast and pressure wave from a high-explosive shell.

[Raneman]

I haven't experienced flinching in beta.

[Mekhazzio]

Originally Posted by Raneman

Do you know the purpose of suppression?

It's to stop the person being suppressed from effectively returning fire.

Why in the world do you think that's supposed to be its purpose? The suppression system in RO2 doesn't do that, and the one in RO1 didn't do that either. If Tripwire wanted your combat ability to be crippled while suppressed, it would be trivially easy to make happen, and the fact that they haven't ever done that should make it clear that it's not an intended outcome.

As to the broader discussion of gameplay design, in my view, the suppression system in RO is done properly. I've always felt that it -ought- to be an atmospheric effect rather than a gameplay effect. To have consistent results, gameplay effects need to be both predictable and appropriate to the situation, and an arbitrary measurement of how scared the game thinks you should be will never be either of those.

In the oft-mentioned case of someone trying to pop out to hit a MG, you won't get conservative play by making slight degradations to their combat effectiveness - humans are gambling creatures and will always go for an opportunity that presents a greater reward than risk. Tuning the reward part of the equation down far enough to have an effect by itself requires going so far that any pretense of realistic combat gets thrown out the window because you're creating new interaction mechanics out of nowhere, e.g., throwing random single bullets wherever just because they might just pass by someone and throw them into the arbitrary crippled state. Not exactly a believable scenario, unless we're supposed to believe every soldier is a shell-shocked coward.

A person should be suppressed because they know they'll get hit when they pop out, and because dying sucks. Fixing the network model and increasing the death penalty would have far more impact on the "pop-up under fire" scenario than any monkeying with suppression.

It also bears noting that two different systems are being talked about in this thread. Suppression is completely independent of the "flinch" bullet reactions. You still get flinches even when rendered immune to suppression, and you (obviously) get suppression from several events besides being fired at.

[[SDS]DOA]

I like the bullet snaps in that DH clip, but I think the current RO2 blurring/desaturation is good. It lets me know someone is inches away from blowing my head apart, and shakes my sights enough to make return fire a little more difficult. If you just add the louder cracks of the bullets to the RO2 system I think it would be just right. Getting shot at in a video game shouldn't cripple my ability to shoot back, but I like the extra effects to make it a little more difficult (advantage of the other guy shooting first) and adds to the immersion.

[luciferintears]

Originally Posted by Nikita

This is exactly what current suppression in the beta does. Bullets passing by cause your avatar to flinch, throwing off your aim when you are in iron sights. Sway is also increased. Give me an MG34 and I challenge you to hit me at anything over 75 yards when I'm shooting at you.

The flinch effect can be caused by friendly fire OR enemy fire, as well as explosions from grenades, satchels, tank shells, and artillery. It occurs whether a bullet flies past you OR when bullets impact cover around you. Suppression (without the flinch) also occurs when a teammate is killed in close proximity to you.

Obviously, no map in RO2 has ranges even close to 15 miles. Artillery has a suppressive impact MAYBE if a round hits within 30 meters--which is perfectly realistic, given the concussive blast and pressure wave from a high-explosive shell.

I haven't noticed any difference between the suppression in the beta and vanilla, aside from the fact that I get more seemingly 'random' supressions.

Not saying that there are no changes, but if there are they're so miniscule that i havent noticed.

Also my 15miles comment was an obvious hyperbole. I get arty. Suppressed when im a good 200-300m away.

[[SDS]DOA]

Speaking of suppression, can someone explain to me why sometimes I get stuck being like half suppressed (desaturated colors, heartbeat sound) for minutes at a time without being shot at or even near anyone else shooting or being shot at? Sometimes I get suppressed, then I try to retreat until it goes away but there is nothing I can do. It just lingers on and on. Sometimes it magically goes away, sometimes I commit suicide by bayo charge into an MG position.

Is this by design, or is it a bug that is being fixed? I have found older threads about this, but no real explanation in any of them.

[Nikita]

Originally Posted by luciferintears

I haven't noticed any difference between the suppression in the beta and vanilla, aside from the fact that I get more seemingly 'random' supressions.

Not saying that there are no changes, but if there are they're so miniscule that i havent noticed.

Also my 15miles comment was an obvious hyperbole. I get arty. Suppressed when im a good 200-300m away.

The radius around the player in which passing bullets/explosions/dead comrades affect the player's suppression has been significantly increased. Also, according to Yoshiro, "The effects of bullet whizzes have been significantly magnified... Additionally, the volume of bullet hit impacts and bullet whizzes has been greatly increased."

If I get suppressed by artillery a good 200 meters away, then it's so miniscule that I haven't noticed.

[Mekhazzio]

Originally Posted by [SDS]DOA

Speaking of suppression, can someone explain to me why sometimes I get stuck being like half suppressed (desaturated colors, heartbeat sound) for minutes at a time without being shot at or even near anyone else shooting or being shot at? Sometimes I get suppressed, then I try to retreat until it goes away but there is nothing I can do. It just lingers on and on. Sometimes it magically goes away, sometimes I commit suicide by bayo charge into an MG position.

Is this by design, or is it a bug that is being fixed? I have found older threads about this, but no real explanation in any of them.

That's a bug in data replication, where your client never properly reenters normal suppression recovery. You need to receive another suppression event to force re-synchronization.

As for if it's being fixed, probably not. Tripwire's QA is rather lacking and they're probably not even aware the bug exists.

[Colt .45 killer]

the purpose of surpression is that the surpressed player should be unable to return fire. The current system only blocks a persons inability to return fire while there are bullets actively passing by them ( causing the jerks ).

Suppression should really start some excessive sway or some blurring of the screen such that a surpressed player could relocate but could not wait 1 second then lean out and start shooting back.

[Flogger23m]

RO1 style suppression. Having a friendly shoot his M1911 five feet in front of me causing my M1 Garrand to jump around 5-6 inches is not my idea of a good suppression system. It is far too exaggerated. A few bullets flying past you makes your gun point to the sky and destroys all vision you have.

In RO1 when shots went by it made it difficult to return fire, so I would often duck and wait until the shooting stopped or move elsewhere. In DH, since I essentially loose control of my player, I move out and start shooting wildly as it will likely cause the same affect on the enemy. Seems counter productive to the original goal.

An overdone suppression affect simply becomes a gimmick that ruins gameplay. I have no idea why they added a desaturation affect in RO2. It looks awkward... can someone explain how bullets/explosions going by desaturate your vision?

Likewise, seeing someone die (even if I personally did not notice it) and then having my vision desaturate and increase my sway and whatnot is a poorly implemented mechanic. Seeing someone die can have different affects on each individual person, depending on who they are, who just died in front of them, and what kind of a situation it was. Though I will assume this feature will remain in the game regardless. Which is one of the reasons why I don't play (aside from the fact that the server browser is still broken).

One of the biggest wastes of money I've spend in a while.

[[SDS]DOA]

Originally Posted by Mekhazzio

That's a bug in data replication, where your client never properly reenters normal suppression recovery. You need to receive another suppression event to force re-synchronization.

As for if it's being fixed, probably not. Tripwire's QA is rather lacking and they're probably not even aware the bug exists.

Thanks for the answer. I guess from now on I'll go toward the bullets and see if that triggers re-synchronization...

Originally Posted by Colt .45 killer

the purpose of surpression is that the surpressed player should be unable to return fire. The current system only blocks a persons inability to return fire while there are bullets actively passing by them ( causing the jerks ).

Suppression should really start some excessive sway or some blurring of the screen such that a surpressed player could relocate but could not wait 1 second then lean out and start shooting back.

I disagree that a suppressed player shouldn't be able to return fire at all, except in the most dangerious situations. I think it is perfect that the only time your screen jerks is when bullets are whipping very closely by you forcing you to find solid cover or die.

Here is my reasoning: half the time I get the suppression effects it is because my squad leader or another teammate near me got zapped. I don't think that should mostly take away my ability to function. Suppression should impair your ability to function, but I think there should be varying degrees since there are different causes for the suppression effects to happen in this game. The highest degree being when you are directly being targeted and the bullets are very close to taking you out, which is when you should be unable to return fire, imo.

[luciferintears]

Originally Posted by Nikita

The radius around the player in which passing bullets/explosions/dead comrades affect the player's suppression has been significantly increased.

why would they do that?

the issue isnt that i dont get suppressed enough (im probably suppressed 3/4 of the game), the issue is that being suppressed doesnt do anything.

i'm still able to effectively return fire and kill that poor machine gunner.

[Nikita]

Originally Posted by luciferintears

why would they do that?

the issue isnt that i dont get suppressed enough (im probably suppressed 3/4 of the game), the issue is that being suppressed doesnt do anything.

i'm still able to effectively return fire and kill that poor machine gunner.

I take it that "3/4 of the game" is another obvious hyperbole.

And I sincerely doubt that you're actually picking off machine gunners with ease when suppressed and under fire in the beta. Playing as a machine gunner in the beta, I can't recall a single time I've been killed by someone I'm actively suppressing and trying to shoot at. Usually I'm picked off by someone I didn't notice, or someone I'm not firing at. Could you post some screenshots of you killing MGs while fully suppressed at 100+ meters? Apparently it happens often enough for you that that shouldn't be a problem.

Originally Posted by Colt .45 killer

the purpose of surpression is that the surpressed player should be unable to return fire. The current system only blocks a persons inability to return fire while there are bullets actively passing by them ( causing the jerks ).

Suppression should really start some excessive sway or some blurring of the screen such that a surpressed player could relocate but could not wait 1 second then lean out and start shooting back.

The problem is, this means that shootouts, especially in close quarters, become a contest to see who can blind or handicap the other player first.

And in reality, there really is no physical impediment to shooting back at someone suppressing you besides the adrenaline, frantic breathing, and nervousness brought about by your body's reaction to mortal danger.

The flinch reaction, really, is the most powerful part of suppression. By preventing you from accurately returning fire, you are forced to take cover. Once you are forced to take cover, you have to expose yourself, relocate your target, and reaquire him, while your enemy presumably has his sights aimed at where you were seen last.

So in a way, you are prvented from just popping up again after a second to shoot back--because it will likely take you far more time to squeeze off a deadly shot. The faster breathing, screen desaturation, and distorted hearing in-game are just icing on the cake that insures that it takes you more time to fire back accurately than it will take your opponent.

[[SDS]DOA]

Originally Posted by luciferintears

why would they do that?

the issue isnt that i dont get suppressed enough (im probably suppressed 3/4 of the game), the issue is that being suppressed doesnt do anything.

i'm still able to effectively return fire and kill that poor machine gunner.

If you are able to effectively return fire, then that poor machine gunner needs better aim. If the bullets are close, you start to flinch. If you land a hit while flinching, you got lucky on two counts. First that you timed the flinches, and second that the machine gunner was so bad he couldn't hit you while you were aiming down your bouncing sights at him.

If you are supposedly suppressed 3/4 of the game, do you really want to be forced to go prone every time a bullet whizzes through the air because the suppression effects are so harsh? I don't. Seems to me the problem if anything is that it is too easy to experience suppression effects.

[RAF_Pstyle]

I wouldn't mid a blast suppression (from non-deadly explosions such as nearby nades, satchels and HE rounds from tanks) that forced your player prone, or to crouch if there wasn't room to go prone.

That would cause a short delay in being able to respond and would "reset" your aim for sure.

[Proud_God]

Originally Posted by RAF_Pstyle

I wouldn't mid a blast suppression (from non-deadly explosions such as nearby nades, satchels and HE rounds from tanks) that forced your player prone, or to crouch if there wasn't room to go prone.

That would cause a short delay in being able to respond and would "reset" your aim for sure.

Agreed. Nades need to have more non-lethal effects.