The Katyn Massacre - Who really did it?

[Giuliano]

There is a lot of evidence disputing whether the Katyn Massacre was a Soviet or German war crime. I've only found one article from a Socialist point of view claiming that the Germans did it, which is nothing compared to the amount of articles saying otherwise.

What I really want to know is what you guys think?

[The Masta]

The soviets did it.

[Homuth]

The Soviets acknowledged the fact that they were to blame, somewhat late, but still official.

[Le0]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre
apparently performed by the "People's Commissariat for Internal Affairs (NKVD)"

[I. Kant]

It took the 2010 April the 10th plane crash for them to stop playing the bull****ting game. I fear to think what it'll take for the mendacious elements of Russian administration to admit their part of the blame for the Smolensk crash.

Anyways, Russian Duma says it's true.

[Bluehawk]

Uhh Gorbachev admitted it in 1990.

Anyway, here's a translation of the memo Beria sent to Stalin regarding the situation with Polish POWs and political prisoners. Rounded parentheses are Beria's, square brackets are my notes.

"People's Commission of Internal Affairs [NKVD]
March 1940
No. 794 B

"To the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks),
To Comrade Stalin

"In the prison camps of the NKVD of the USSR and in the reserve prisons of Ukrainian and Belorussian oblasts [small administrative district] are currently contained a large quantity of former officers of the Polish Army, former employees of the Polish police and intelligence agencies, members of the Polish nationalist counterrevolutionary party, uncovered participants of counterrevolutionary rebel organizations, defectors and others. All of them are sworn enemies of the Soviet state and full of hatred for the Soviet system.

"POW officers and policemen, while in the camps, are attempting to continue counter-rev. work and lead anti-Soviet agitation. Each of them is just waiting to be released in order to actively join the opposition to the Soviet state.

"Organs of the NKVD in the western oblasts of Ukraine and Belarus revealed a number of rebel counter-rev. organizations wherein an active leadership role in being played by former officers of the Polish Army, former policemen, and gendarmes.

"Among the deserters arrested for illegal border crossings, there was found a significant number of persons whom are members of counter-rev. spy and insurgent organizations.

"In the POW camps there is a total of (not counting enlisted soldiers and non-commissioned officers) 14,736 former officers, government officials, policemen, gendarmes, prison guards, osadniks [Polish veterans settled in the Kresy; a sort of colonist] and intelligence agents - by nationality, over 97% of which are Poles.

"Of them, there are:

• Generals, colonels, and lieutenant-colonels - 295
• Majors and captains - 2,080
• Lieutenants, sub-lieutenants and warrant-officers - 6,049
• Officers and junior commanders of the police, border patrol, and gendarmerie - 1,030
• rank-and-file policemen [constables in UK, officers in US], Gendarmes, prison guards, and intelligence officers - 5,138
• Officials, landowners, clergymen and osadniks - 144

"In the prisons of the western oblasts of Ukraine and Belarus are contained a total of 18,632 prisoners (of which 10,685 are Poles), including:

• Former officers - 1,207
• Former police intelligence officers and gendarmes - 5,141
• Spies and diversionists [saboteurs] - 347
• Former landowners, industrialists, and officials - 465
• Members of various counter-rev. and insurgent organizations and other counter-rev. elements - 5,345
• Deserters - 6,127

"Based on the fact that they are entrenched, incorrigible enemies of the Soviet state, the NKVD of the USSR considers it necessary:

1. To suggest the NKVD of the USSR:
   
   1. For the cases of those 14,700 persons in POW camps that are former Polish officers, officials, landowners, policemen, intelligence agents, gendarmes, osadniks, and prison guards,
   
   2. As well as the cases of those detainees held in prisons in the western oblasts of Ukraine and Belarus numbering 11,000 people who are members of various counter-rev. spying and sabotaging organizations, were former landlords, industrialists, former Polish officers, officials, and deserters -
   
   - to try [and convict], in a special manner, these persons with the sentence of capital punishment - by gunshot. [emphasis my own]
2. Trials be performed without summoning the arrested nor with laying charges against the accused, ordinances on the termination of the investigation and final conviction are to be as follows:
   a) For persons in POW camps - according to information provided by the Office for Prisoners of War of the NKVD of the USSR,
   b) For persons arrested - according to information from the cases submitted by the NKVD of the Ukrainian SSR and Belorussian SSR.
3. Trying and deliberating to be entrusted to a troika [counsel of three] consisting of Comrades [name scratched out], Merkulov, [added in in pen] Kobulov, and Bashtakov (Head of the 1st Special Department of the NKVD of the USSR).

"Peoples Commission of Internal Affairs
Union of SSR
[Beria's Signature]
L. Beria"

Here are high resolution scans of the document:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...assacre_p1.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...assacre_p2.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...assacre_p3.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...assacre_p4.jpg

Feel free to correct any errors

[Shadrach]

Very good post Bluehawk.

Stalin's grandson tries to sue media claiming his grandfather was a murderer ...

[Giuliano]

Originally Posted by Bluehawk

Uhh Gorbachev admitted it in 1990.

Anyway, here's a translation of the memo Beria sent to Stalin regarding the situation with Polish POWs and political prisoners. Rounded parentheses are Beria's, square brackets are my notes.

"People's Commission of Internal Affairs [NKVD]
March 1940
No. 794 B

"To the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks),
To Comrade Stalin

"In the prison camps of the NKVD of the USSR and in the reserve prisons of Ukrainian and Belorussian oblasts [small administrative district] are currently contained a large quantity of former officers of the Polish Army, former employees of the Polish police and intelligence agencies, members of the Polish nationalist counterrevolutionary party, uncovered participants of counterrevolutionary rebel organizations, defectors and others. All of them are sworn enemies of the Soviet state and full of hatred for the Soviet system.

"POW officers and policemen, while in the camps, are attempting to continue counter-rev. work and lead anti-Soviet agitation. Each of them is just waiting to be released in order to actively join the opposition to the Soviet state.

"Organs of the NKVD in the western oblasts of Ukraine and Belarus revealed a number of rebel counter-rev. organizations wherein an active leadership role in being played by former officers of the Polish Army, former policemen, and gendarmes.

"Among the deserters arrested for illegal border crossings, there was found a significant number of persons whom are members of counter-rev. spy and insurgent organizations.

"In the POW camps there is a total of (not counting enlisted soldiers and non-commissioned officers) 14,736 former officers, government officials, policemen, gendarmes, prison guards, osadniks [Polish veterans settled in the Kresy; a sort of colonist] and intelligence agents - by nationality, over 97% of which are Poles.

"Of them, there are:

• Generals, colonels, and lieutenant-colonels - 295
• Majors and captains - 2,080
• Lieutenants, sub-lieutenants and warrant-officers - 6,049
• Officers and junior commanders of the police, border patrol, and gendarmerie - 1,030
• rank-and-file policemen [constables in UK, officers in US], Gendarmes, prison guards, and intelligence officers - 5,138
• Officials, landowners, clergymen and osadniks - 144

"In the prisons of the western oblasts of Ukraine and Belarus are contained a total of 18,632 prisoners (of which 10,685 are Poles), including:

• Former officers - 1,207
• Former police intelligence officers and gendarmes - 5,141
• Spies and diversionists [saboteurs] - 347
• Former landowners, industrialists, and officials - 465
• Members of various counter-rev. and insurgent organizations and other counter-rev. elements - 5,345
• Deserters - 6,127

"Based on the fact that they are entrenched, incorrigible enemies of the Soviet state, the NKVD of the USSR considers it necessary:

1. To suggest the NKVD of the USSR:
   
   1. For the cases of those 17,000 persons in POW camps that are former Polish officers, officials, landowners, policemen, intelligence agents, gendarmes, osadniks, and prison guards,
   
   2. As well as the cases of those detainees held in prisons in the western oblasts of Ukraine and Belarus numbering 11,000 people who are members of various counter-rev. spying and sabotaging organizations, were former landlords, industrialists, former Polish officers, officials, and deserters -
   
   - to try [and convict], in a special manner, these persons with the application of capital punishment - by gunshot. [emphasis my own]
2. Trials be performed without summoning the arrested nor with laying charges against the accused, ordinances on the termination of the investigation and final conviction are to be as follows:
   a) For persons in POW camps - according to information provided by the Office for Prisoners of War of the NKVD of the USSR,
   b) For persons arrested - according to information from the cases submitted by the NKVD of the Ukrainian SSR and Belorussian SSR.
3. Trying and deliberating to be entrusted to a troika [counsel of three] consisting of Comrades [name scratched out], Merkulov, [added in in pen] Kobulov, and Bashtakov (Head of the 1st Special Department of the NKVD of the USSR).

"Peoples Commission of Internal Affairs
Union of SSR
[Beria's Signature]
L. Beria"

Here are high resolution scans of the document:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...assacre_p1.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...assacre_p2.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...assacre_p3.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...assacre_p4.jpg

Feel free to correct any errors

Great post.

[The Masta]

Thanks, Bluehawk

[I. Kant]

Bluehawk, I am fully aware that Gorbachov admitted Soviet guilt in 1990, as did Yeltsin later, but what I thought was so important in the Duma admission was that it was (to my knowledge) the first time a major organ of the Russian administration admitted it (thus, no longer a single deniable individual; I mean, look at Yeltsin's track record — I can almost hear someone say "Oh, he was a drunkard, what did he know"; Gorbachov — as far as I know — was also not the top-scorer amongst those hard-line Soviets).
But with Duma admission, well, that was not as easily deniable, and that's why it's the defining moment for me.

And as for the bull****ting game I mentioned earlier: We're not responsible for Stalin.

(what they're saying is that the European Tribunal of Human Rights is going to announce it's ruling on the 16th April, but the newspaper already knows that Russia is going to be declared not guilty; and so on and so on)

[Bluehawk]

Ahh, I see now.

[Rrralphster]

You guys lost?

The buttler did it (as usual)

[Krobar]

Originally Posted by Rrralphster

You guys lost?

The buttler did it (as usual)

Nope. It was marmite.

[theta123]

This is the photo of the man who personnally killed atleast 7000 men during the katynn massacere. He used mostly walther model 2 pistols but also some PPK ones. An entire case full of personall pistols. He did this because he dint trusted the new TT-30 pistol yet, and if the bodies where found, they could put the guilt on the nazis

His name is vasili blokhin

[Alexander Ostmann]

How can this even be debated? It's like trying to debate the Holocaust.

[I. Kant]

How?

It's the Soviets (now: Russians) we're talking about. Even if you caught them red-handed, they'd be saying it wasn't their hand. Think back to the Litvinenko case, think about the first reactions from Moscow and the comments they were making ("Oh, Litvinienko was a drunkard, he'd drunk himself to death" and its progression to "Oh, he may have been poisoned with radioactive materials, but you've got nothing on us!" and further to "The two men being accused of poisoning Litvinenko were no longer agents of the FSB at the time", etc., etc.).

This is a brief breakdown of how the whole Katyn thing worked (in my perception):

* roll back to just before WWII: the secret annex to the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact carves up Poland (and the remainder of Eastern European states) between the USSR and the III Reich

* 1940: Finland vs USSR; UK is considering sending troops to Finland — that's how bad the relations between the UK and the USSR are. Eventually, the idea doesn't come through, though.

* 1941: Barbarossa starts. This is a godsend to the UK, as Germany is is now mostly occupied with fighting the Soviets. The relations between the Western Allies and the Soviets are somewhat tense, but the necessity of the moment outweighs any previous doubts. A fragile alliance ensues.

* 1943: due to the insistence of Poland's legitimate government (currently in exile in London) on the shape of post-war borders of Poland (refusal to accept the Soviet land-grab resulting from Ribbentrop-Molotov), as well as — and this was the conspicuous direct reason — due to Poland's insistence on thoroughly investigating the site of the massacre in Katyn, diplomatic relations between Poland and the Soviet Union are severed.
However, general Władysław Sikorski, Poland's PM at the time (and General Inspector of the Armed Forces), a person particularly influential with the Western Allies and a vocal proponent of investigating Katyn, dies in a plane crash shortly after departing from the Gibraltar airfield, early July 1943.

Now, is it prudent for the Western Allies to risk ruining relations with the SU for the sake of an Eastern European country, they'd already previously written off (Locarno Treaties)?

Well, you know how the ending of WWII went. Defeating the III Reich was the overarching goal, an altair upon which all insignificant issues could be sacrificed for the sake of political expediency.
Poland's new borders were written behind Poles' back in Yalta and Soviets were stamping out any reference to Katyn (while adding their usual political maskirovka of coughing up a different massacre, this time of German doing, in the similarly named Khatyn village) until Gorbachov's initial admission.
And guess the representation of which Allied nation (excluding the SU and Yugoslavia) was not invited to the Victory Parade in London, in 1946?

Do not underestimate the Soviet/ Russian administration's capacity for lying.

[[Mad_Murdock]]

But how do you REALLY feel about it Kant?

[I. Kant]

I am afraid you're going to have to narrow it down for me a little: what do you mean exactly? How do I feel about what?

[Bluehawk]

He's joking, because your posts are so passionate.

[theta123]

Originally Posted by I. Kant

How?

It's the Soviets (now: Russians) we're talking about. Even if you caught them red-handed, they'd be saying it wasn't their hand. Think back to the Litvinenko case, think about the first reactions from Moscow and the comments they were making ("Oh, Litvinienko was a drunkard, he'd drunk himself to death" and its progression to "Oh, he may have been poisoned with radioactive materials, but you've got nothing on us!" and further to "The two men being accused of poisoning Litvinenko were no longer agents of the FSB at the time", etc., etc.).

This is a brief breakdown of how the whole Katyn thing worked (in my perception):

* roll back to just before WWII: the secret annex to the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact carves up Poland (and the remainder of Eastern European states) between the USSR and the III Reich

* 1940: Finland vs USSR; UK is considering sending troops to Finland — that's how bad the relations between the UK and the USSR are. Eventually, the idea doesn't come through, though.

* 1941: Barbarossa starts. This is a godsend to the UK, as Germany is is now mostly occupied with fighting the Soviets. The relations between the Western Allies and the Soviets are somewhat tense, but the necessity of the moment outweighs any previous doubts. A fragile alliance ensues.

* 1943: due to the insistence of Poland's legitimate government (currently in exile in London) on the shape of post-war borders of Poland (refusal to accept the Soviet land-grab resulting from Ribbentrop-Molotov), as well as — and this was the conspicuous direct reason — due to Poland's insistence on thoroughly investigating the site of the massacre in Katyn, diplomatic relations between Poland and the Soviet Union are severed.
However, general Władysław Sikorski, Poland's PM at the time (and General Inspector of the Armed Forces), a person particularly influential with the Western Allies and a vocal proponent of investigating Katyn, dies in a plane crash shortly after departing from the Gibraltar airfield, early July 1943.

Now, is it prudent for the Western Allies to risk ruining relations with the SU for the sake of an Eastern European country, they'd already previously written off (Locarno Treaties)?

Well, you know how the ending of WWII went. Defeating the III Reich was the overarching goal, an altair upon which all insignificant issues could be sacrificed for the sake of political expediency.
Poland's new borders were written behind Poles' back in Yalta and Soviets were stamping out any reference to Katyn (while adding their usual political maskirovka of coughing up a different massacre, this time of German doing, in the similarly named Khatyn village) until Gorbachov's initial admission.
And guess the representation of which Allied nation (excluding the SU and Yugoslavia) was not invited to the Victory Parade in London, in 1946?

Do not underestimate the Soviet/ Russian administration's capacity for lying.

So are westren nations evil, so was nazi germany

EVERY goverment lies, EVERY regime kills, EVERY authority denies

There is nothing we, the common small man, has to say about it