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Ok treading on a sensitive issue here... The Medic & The Zerker.

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#81
Undedd Jester said:
So why may I ask is it fine for the Berserker to be able to solo everything and not the Sharpshooter?
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Because if you "fix" this "problem", the perk becomes obsolete.
You know, just like making the chainsaw take 2 hits to decap trash instead of 1 instantly turned it from "great" into "barely useful".
There was no "not great but still useful" gray area at all.
I even called that one if I remember correctly and I also believe that the whole perk itself is quite sensitive to nerfs in a similar way, especially when it comes to movespeed which is kind of the achilles heel of a melee perk.

The sharpshooter is something completely different. Because he's ranged.
You literally have more room to work with.

Tell me, what exactly is the function of a berserker in a team?
If he couldn't even hope to try and keep up with gorefasts anymore, in which specific case would you choose berserker over all the other perks?

You know that's kind of another reason why you can't really compare zerkers to medics.
Medics are incredibly useful beyond just fighting. Zerkers can only fight.

SMIFF said:
May I ask what "mistakes" you are refering to? Give me some examples.
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Getting surrounded, crawler hopping, not hitting the siren head, trying to pick off a husk inside a horde but missing the head, making a scrake rush you, pound rage etc etc.
You know, everything that makes people die. Why do I have to explain this?
 
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#82
I don't see many Firebugs about nowadays, I don't even see that many Commandos or Sharpshooters about nowadays. Are they obsolete? No they are balanced.

The Zerker is being overplayed because he isn't balanced. Proper Zerkers didn't even see the need for the damage buffs or the speed boost. They (and myself who just has a hard on for balance) only really wanted the Chainsaw buffing so it was viable again. Other than that there were a number of people who said the Zerker was fine.

Well dodged on my question btw. I ask again, should the Berserker be the only class that can consistently solo a HoE 6 Man Flehspound. Yes or No?
 
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#83
Starsky said:
The real problem isn't the berserker, it's the fleshpound's rage mechanic. Just change it so that it will enrage after a certain period of time regardless of whether it attacks or not, and just put the timer on pause when it breaks LoS instead of resetting it. That will go farther in balancing the berserker than anything you can do to it's stats imo.
That idea wasn't originally mine btw, I saw someone else post it on the forums but can't remember who it was. Tried to find it so I could give them credit but couldn't. :(
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Changing / Fixing the rage mechanics of the FP is a step in the right direction except zerkers can survive a hit from an enraged fleshpound. The strategy will simply shift to intentionally enraging the fp to separate it from the group and either taking a hit or welding a door to calm it down. Now you have your 1v1 scenario again.

-------

Smiff also has a good point in his earlier post about how once all 32 specimens are behind the zerker, it's just a matter of picking them off 1 by 1. The spawn system also plays a big part in how the zerker can kite so well as it will rarely drop surprise spawns if the zerker only kills off 2-3 specimens at a time and/or keeps moving.

By the way, Nutter had made a thread about why the zerker was overpowered. It eventually was derailed and whatever yet here we are again discussing why the zerker is overpowered bringing up similar points as Nutter did in his thread.
 
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#84
Undedd Jester said:
Well dodged on my question btw. I ask again, should the Berserker be the only class that can consistently solo a HoE 6 Man Flehspound. Yes or No?
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Well that's kind of a trick question if we factor a sharpie with a LAR/M14 or even an xbow with enough room, a support with a full AA12 and a HS or a demo with pipes or a m32 into this, isn't it?
Also, personally, I'd consider the berserker one of the worst choices to "consistently" deal with pounds and I never in fact managed to kill one if I had to.
Sorry, I'm just not cut out for this.
I'd rather blow them up and be done with them than running around for 5 minutes, poking them with a stick.

So how could I possibly answer that question anyway?
It kind of lacks any sort of integrity. The zerker is pretty far from being *the* pound killer perk.
There just so happens to be a borderline-exploit that allows you to kill them.
And, while we're at it, good job dodging my question btw.

What is the role of a berserker in an actual team?
You know, a slow berserker would be forced to stick to the team more so there has to be a very good reason to ever choose zerker over all the other perks if you plan on staying together.
 
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#85
scary ghost said:
Changing / Fixing the rage mechanics of the FP is a step in the right direction except zerkers can survive a hit from an enraged fleshpound. The strategy will simply shift to intentionally enraging the fp to separate it from the group and either taking a hit or welding a door to calm it down. Now you have your 1v1 scenario again.
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Exactly how long does it take for a fleshpound to auto-rage though? Even if they do separate it from the group, if the rage timer won't reset after attacking or breaking LoS, I'm skeptical of them being able to kill it before it kills them by raging a second time because it does take a while...you'll still have to pause between attacks to avoid raging it from too much DPS, and you'll still need to dodge it's normal attacks so those don't kill you.
True that you could weld a door after raging it the first time, but you're not at all guaranteed to have a weldable door nearby when a fleshpound rages if the timer is never reset. That's also another mechanic that could be changed: Don't end a fleshpound's rage when he destroys a welded door.
Then there's trying to deal with more than one fleshpound at a time without resetting rage timers...
 
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#86
9_6 said:
What is the role of a berserker in an actual team?
You know, a slow berserker would be forced to stick to the team more so there has to be a very good reason to ever choose zerker over all the other perks.
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His main task is to simply serve as the first contact for specimens to kill what he can and otherwise distract them to buy more time for the rest of his team to eliminate the incoming threats.

Most common examples are taking the lead against things like large pools of gorefasts, which other classes can find very problematic if they are caught reloading or simply miss a headshot. They also take up the lead on all the clots, gorefasts, stalkers and bloats while the team is distracted taking on other dangerous incoming threats like Scrakes, Husks and Sirens. These kind of threats need to be dealt with quickly and it is much harder to do with regular specimens bearing down on you.

There is obviously more to it, like ambushing zeds like Scrakes to stun lock them, buying reload time for your supports and demos, etc, but as a general rule of thumb his job is to distract specimens so his teammates can focus on doing their jobs without having to beat trash off of themselves.

The overall point is the Zerker isn't meant to be a perk that can solo everything, he is meant to be a perk to slow down the horde and pick off what he can.

So there you go. In the case of why he shouldn't be able to solo fleshpounds, other perks can solo fleshpounds but they generally have to deal with the fleshpound rage. Sharpshooters, Support, even Demo Experts have the same problem. They have to kill the enraged fleshpound before it gets close enough to hit them, which is extremely hard to do alone. Being able to whittle his health down without forcing an attack or taking damage is where the Zerker creates this overpowered problem, and actually does make the Berserker the FP killer perk. As Sharpie I was instructed not to shoot the flehspound so the Berserker could lead it round and round and kill it safely.
 
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#89
Undedd Jester said:
The overall point is the Zerker isn't meant to be a perk that can solo everything, he is meant to be a perk to slow down the horde and pick off what he can.
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So blocking other peoples shots is his "job" that makes him much more desirable over all other perks?
Cause we all love if someone keeps strafing around in front of us?
Are you serious?

Undedd Jester said:
Being able to whittle his health down without forcing an attack or taking damage is where the Zerker creates this overpowered problem.
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Like I said 3 times already, that "overpowered problem" is basically an exploit just like the insta-decapitation of fps before that were yet it still lead to the glorious chainsaw nerf because some people were incapable of differentiating between one mechanic (1 hit decap regardless of weapon or damage) and something completely unrelated (chainsaw headshot multiplier).

The same nonsense will go down if pounds rage timer won't reset so you can't poke them without the eventual rage and the berserker is slowed to a crawl to "fix" the same "problem".
So would you kindly treat it for what it is, an exploit, and stop using the zerkers "ability to solo pounds" as your one and only ultimate justification for further nerfs?
There's more than just pounds you know.

I also like how the the "slippery slope fallacy" got invoked on me before yet you yourself wanted to go further than just the initial 5% earlier.
 
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#90
9_6 said:
So blocking other peoples shots is his "job" that makes him much more desirable over all other perks?
Cause we all love if someone keeps strafing around in front of us?
Are you serious?


Like I said 3 times already, that "overpowered problem" is basically an exploit just like the insta-decapitation of fps before that were yet it still lead to the glorious chainsaw nerf because some people were incapable of differentiating between one mechanic and something completely unrelated.
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Don't be naive, you can distract specimens without blocking people, just like Firebugs can ignite specimens without blocking the teams view constantly and Demomen who use explosives appropraitely to aid the team

All it takes is a brain.

Finally, that exploit is exactly what everyone is trying to fix. Rather than just bashing suggestions on potential solutions how about being constructive and actually trying to offer a solution youself.

I've said a number of times I'm not sure if my solution will fix the problem, and asked if anyone a little more familiar with the Zerker could offer some suggestions. Other people have done jsut that and made some good suggestions in amoungst this huge thread derailing arguement.

Speaking of which, I'm done.

EDIT: Incidently I still think the damage resistance and speed buffs were unneccesary, and they encourage sloppy play rather than really learning to play the Zerker, but thats not what this debate is about.
 
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#91
Undedd Jester said:
Don't be naive, you can distract specimens without blocking people, just like Firebugs can ignite specimens without blocking the teams view constantly and Demomen who use explosives appropraitely to aid the team

All it takes is a brain.
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What does that even mean?
Was that supposed to counter anything I said in any way?
Does "having a brain" make zerkers translucent or something?
Is the fact that that player model and name sign block my view, grenades and bullets somehow related to my naivite?
How can someone "distract" specimens, be in the front line and not block the view of those behind him?
Crouching? Yeah, that works just fantastically every time I see a zerker do it.
They either don't do anything at all because the team knows what it's doing or, because of their nonexistant mobility, they are the punching bag of the nation, screaming for more needles than a crack addict.
How would that make zerkers more desirable over all other perks?

Undedd Jester said:
Finally, that exploit is exactly what everyone is trying to fix. Rather than just bashing my suggestions on potential solutions how about being constructive and actually trying to offer a solution youself.
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I have already stated my solution.
3 times now.
Want me to say it again?

No more rage timer reset. None.
Axe it 2 times and wait 5 seconds, axe it again, rage.
1 LAR headshot, kite for an hour, another headhsot, rage. Done.
No more whittling health away indefinitely without rage possible.
You can still calm them with doors but you'll probably be running out of doors if there are any doors at all.
Taking on pounds would be even more impractical to the point of being comical.
What. More. Do. You. Want?
What is it?

It's clearly not just those 5% nor a fix for the pound rage exploit.
I'm indifferent towards one and even suggested the other myself but somehow, that's not good enough for you. Why?

Undedd Jester said:
Other people have done jsut that and made some good suggestions in amoungst this huge thread derailing arguement.
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Stop whining because you face scrutiny and start making sense, damnit.
 
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#92
@Starsky
Sorry, I misread the idea and thought the timer would reset if the the FP swung at you. Just for reference though, from FleshpoundZombieController.uc, a fleshpound will auto rage after 10-15 seconds of frustration. The timer is random each time he locks onto you. Assuming the worst case and he rages in 10 seconds, you could nail in 5/9 if your timing is on par, take an enraged hit, then get in the last 4. Of course this makes fleshpounds harder to manage as you will take a hit and no one's timing will be that good in a real game.

Even if axing is not an option, the versatility of the zerker and cheap maintenance allow him to purchase explosives. A zerker can easily collect
 
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#93
Jesus, its like your deliberately refusing to listen to another persons point to wind them up. Alright I'll explain every damned detail.

Your arguement appears to take the stance that by default every Berserker working with his team will block their view most of the time. That is a naive point of view as there are players who can play Berserker effectively who keep their teams field of view relatively clear.

My reply to that is just like the Firebug who sprays fire wildly into the air and blocks peoples views, and just like the Demoman who spams all his explsives to create massive dustclouds, a Berserker who constantly runs into the thick of combat in front of he teams line of fire without luring specimens aside is a bad Berserker. A variation of this tactic is to go rambo and cut the amount of speicmens the team has to deal with in half... but this is a tactic only viable due to that exploit obviously

Yes a Berserker may block the occassional shot but if he serves his role correctly he makes use of the fact that most specimens go for the nearest target and draws them out of the line of fire of his team to clear their field of view and allow them to focus on other threats behind the trash specimens. No other perk can effectively do this due to the dangers ivolved with attempting something like this, and the only way they can try it is to cut down the nearby specimens with gunfire, which simply is't as efficient

I will admit I missed your point on the no rage timer reset. That is a reasonable solution, I guess I may have glanced over it since your posts constantly suggested that the Berserker stats are fine because this tactic is quite hard to pull off, which tbh even with these fleshpound fixes, I'm not convinced that they are.
 
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#94
9_6 said:
No more rage timer reset. None.
Axe it 2 times and wait 5 seconds, axe it again, rage.
1 LAR headshot, kite for an hour, another headhsot, rage. Done.
No more whittling health away indefinitely without rage possible.
You can still calm them with doors but you'll probably be running out of doors if there are any doors at all.
Taking on pounds would be even more impractical to the point of being comical.
What. More. Do. You. Want?
What is it?
Click to expand...

Won't fix anything, the Berserker can take a raged Fleshpound hit without armour on HoE, so he could just tank the hit, run away, heal, attack again, tank again and so on and so forth.

@Scary Does the Fleshpound do that 2 strike attack when raged?

Even then, his 2 arm underhand attack takes like 71hp when raged, so if he was to follow that up with the 2 strike unraged, the Zerk would probably still die. Any combination of his attacks as long as one was during rage should kill him (without armour), unless he repeated that 2 strike attack maybe.

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure they would kill him.
 
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#95
SMIFF said:
Won't fix anything, the Berserker can take a raged Fleshpound hit without armour on HoE, so he could just tank the hit, run away, heal, attack again, tank again and so on and so forth.
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And that would take like, what, 30 minutes?
The medic, at this point, could also solo a FP with the knife and 9mm.
How impractical and dangerous has something to be to be out of question?

Undedd Jester said:
Your arguement appears to take the stance that by default every Berserker working with his team will block their view most of the time. That is a naive point of view as there are players who can play Berserker effectively who keep their teams field of view relatively clear.
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Yes.
If they are at some place other than in front of the team.
Guarding a hallway or something. On their own.
Your remark of them being the "first contact for the specimens" suggest a position in front of other players.

Undedd Jester said:
Yes a Berserker may block the occassional shot but if he serves his role correctly he makes use of the fact that most specimens go for the nearest target and draws them out of the line of fire of his team to clear their field of view and allow them to focus on other threats behind the trash specimens.
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I've never ever seen anything like that in action.

My point is that a berserker that sticks with the team would be better off picking commando, support or anything else.
No need to "distract" dead specimens.
That's the first time I've ever seen that mentioned as the berserkers supposed role in a team.

As far as I am concerned, he has no role in a team of ranged attackers.
 
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#96
9_6 said:
And that would take like, what, 30 minutes?
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More like 5 - 10 minutes, possibly less, what's your point anyway? You think because it would take 30 minutes that would prevent people from abusing it? Oh you silly boy.

9_6 said:
The medic, at this point, could also solo a FP with the knife and 9mm.
How impractical and dangerous has something to be to be out of question?
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Yep, they can, which should also be made completely impossible.
 
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#97
Well to put it simply, you remain on the front line, but you dont stand in the way. Remember specimens are always coming to you, you don't really have to move to kill them.

Whenever I played Berserker way back before it was buffed I stood up in front off to the side, preferably behind a barrel or something so that specimens would need to walk round to me.

The advantages of this were: -
- Husks and Sirens would attack me from further distances instead meaning that my team wouldn't get mass ignited or all suffer the scream shake. This would make it easier for the team to kill them.
- Gorefasts would try to run at me majority of the time allowing me to just lop their heads off
- Clots crawlers and stalkers would all go for me, meaning they were posing little pressure to my teammates. Furthermore since I was taking all the damage their armour and health was left virtually unscathed, saving the team money and making surivval more likely.
- When Scrakes (and now fleshpounds with their new targettig system) came along I could choose whether or not to draw their attention or leave them for my team and distract everything else behind them. Other players would have their field of view blocked by said Fleshpound/Scrake.

Any perk played badly creates problems in the team, which is where people get irritated with certain perks. As long as you get into the mindset of Killing Floor you can avoid nearly every problem you typically encounter. Quite simply its a case of think what specimens are gonna do and how does my perk make use of that fact.
 
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#98
SMIFF said:
More like 5 - 10 minutes, possibly less, what's your point anyway? You think because it would take 30 minutes that would prevent people from abusing it? Oh you silly boy.



Yep, they can, which should also be made completely impossible.
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This is completely and utterly asinine and that's all I have to say to it.
I'll just hope those ridiculous "what if"- scenarios that completely blow everything out of proportion won't lead to any sort of substantial change.
 
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#99
9_6 said:
This is completely and utterly asinine and that's all I have to say to it.
I'll just hope those ridiculous "what if"- scenarios that completely blow everything out of proportion won't lead to any sort of substantial change.
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That's loser talk.

If something is so dangerous and impractical that you don't think people would attempt it, then how the hell can you be bothered so much if it's removed all together?
 
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#100
SMIFF said:
That's loser talk.
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:troll: on, son.

Edit after edit:

SMIFF said:
If something is so dangerous and impractical that you don't think people would attempt it, then how the hell can you be bothered so much if it's removed all together?
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There has to be a line at which being paranoid about what is possible just becomes ridiculous.
The knife+9mm medic vs pound should clearly be far, far beyond that line.
So should taking 10+ minutes of undivided attention to deal with one single pound (which could go wrong any time btw).
What's the point in being able to kill that one pound by jumping through tons of hoops but then you're the only one left in the game because everyone else got bored?
No one can see how awesome you are for being able to solo 200 enemies in wave 10 in just one and a half hour at this point.

Also we're not just focusing on talking about the rage exploit here but about other nerfs for the zerker too that are being justified by the logic that this somehow is an "ability" of the zerker.
All I'm reading is just "pounds, pounds, pounds" in here.
 
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