The most useless offperk weapon

[vealck]

Yeah, bullpup weights 6. Combined with two medic guns you have 2 slots left - so no other weapons.

I even made a thread about the revival of the bullpup, because right now it's severely underpowered. On HoE you need 2 headshots to kill the weakest enemies, which effectively cuts number of kills per mag to 25 - which is the same as SCAR. Also, you need 4 bodyshots to kill a crawler, while SCAR/AK takes 2.

Right now the nice feel of sustaining constant fire is the only reason I'd choose bullpup isntead of other weapons, but that's just counterproductive. Reducing weight to 5 blocks would be an ideal solution. But we stride from the topic of this thread.

[Rhenna]

Seems like the principle reason to employ any weapon off-perk, is one of necessity. The weapon is something you found, or someone (kindly) gives you, or, it is simply all you can afford to buy. This last reason is why I've always disliked the notion of raising the cost of the LAR from it's current off-perk price of £200; doing that often condemns a re-spawning player to either beg for cash, or march into the next wave with the war-cry of, "Fear my Beretta!"

Any weapon at all, as my nephew is fond of saying, "beats a blank." While I can't disagree with the choices offered, it doesn't surprise me to see something like the M4/M203-combo and Combat Shotgun with zero votes, simply because I can't imagine someone deliberately investing that amount of money and carry-capacity to any off-perk weapon. I'd be happy to pick-up either from a fallen comrade if I could, (and, return them later), but if I was able to do that, it would likely mean I'm not too well-armed to begin with.

I must say, I RARELY see anyone with a MAC-10 who isn't playing 'Bug. I've tried it, off-perk, on Hard, using it in semi-auto as basically a glorified handgun. It isn't horrible in that capacity in the early waves, especially in tight quarters where the large magazine helps, but it certainly doesn't shine.

While playing 'Bug, I've tossed it to incoming players who couldn't reach the Trader, and watch them quickly blow through the transferred ammunition in full-auto, often not accomplishing very much. But, that isn't the fault of the weapon. One of the reasons I've hoped that the IJC Thompson will be selective-fire is to broaden it's off-perk usefulness. (Hopefully.) Otherwise, I fear it may well become simply MAC-10 V2.0.

I'd have to opt for the Claymore as being the last thing I'd want to be left with, off-perk. Being in blade-range of the tender embrace of the specimens, while not being a Beserker, is not a good career-move.

[jdrou]

Originally Posted by C_Gibby

It's actually 6. I personally think it should be lowered. 4, maybe. If that's too much, 5 is good as gold.

5 would be great. Commando could carry bullpup+scar+M79.

[FSUBoo]

Originally Posted by Althamus

We need to have a list of terminology xD I normally refer to it as mini-flinching because it's only for about 0.4secs. The advantage is that the EBR fires every 0.25 secs, so if you can literally keep it pointed at his head and fire as soon as you're able to, it'll work.

But I think of it as a mini-flinch because katana flinches are for much much longer.
Although now I think of it, katanas only fire every 0.6 secs at L0 zerk, and you can keep a scrake flinchlocked as a L0 zerk I believe? Which isn't that much longer. Are both flinches for the same amount of time?

Lol I've just always referred to it as "flinch locking". You can do the same with with a perked HC on HoE 6 Man as level 6 sharpie.

As far as the katana, it won't flinch lock as a level 6 zerker on Suicidal or HoE.

Originally Posted by vealck

Crawlers, yes. But usually when you shoot for a group of 4 clots, 2 of them will survive. Main usage of grenades is to prevent someone getting hit by gorefasts by stunning them, to free overwhelmed player, or to eliminate sirens/husks at medium distances. 12 is not nearly enough to last you for entire wave.

About primary fire: when they're close, decapitated are still dangerous, so dispatching them is far better with katana. And when they're far enough, you can't usually put every bullet of the burst in the head.
Ammo is still very limited, reloading time long, and there's the price issue.

I guess we'll agree to disagree, as I can provide this video for how the combat shotgun and the m4 203 can be useful off-perk, both used by crazedtofu in this video (also known as Darkfalz in game). I know they wipe in the video, but it still shows that he more than survived using that combination.
Killing Floor: My Useless Loadout - YouTube

Originally Posted by vealck

There are far more efficient ways of killing trash, won't save you from a raged scrake (requires almost 3 full mags of headshots to put one down in combat situation), and has only 48 rounds, which will maybe down 6 husks/sirens in an entire wave if you're not using it for anything else. And an insane price.

I wasn't saying that you would use it to kill scrakes off class. Most of the time if you're playing with off-perked weapons, you aren't trying to kill the bigs, unless you're a commando with m32.

Originally Posted by vealck

Cycling weapons, especially those in one slot also requires time. And with that setup you have no panic weapon, no means to kill a raged SC, and can't down surprise sirens fast enough.

I was just stating that as a way to kill stuff around you if you're trapped in a large group is all.

Originally Posted by vealck

Haven't been using M14 from a very long time, didn't even know that I'll try using it sometime, then. Still, can't stun husks before they shot and can't one-shot crawlers :|

Yeah I've seen it used a few times like that, so it's something fun to see.

[C_Gibby]

Originally Posted by jdrou

5 would be great. Commando could carry bullpup+scar+M79.

I'm actually of the opinion that SCAR should be 6, Bullpup should be 4, and the AK/M4 should be 5.

I think that'd work nicely... ish. I think it may prove to be a little too versatile, but I think it's one of those things that need testing. If that happens, the mando will be able to do stuff like carry around a handcannon. Or a magnum.

He'd be able to do that anyway if changes to the pistols were made.

[SlantSix]

Given the choice between the dual 9mm's and the Claymore, I'd take the handguns. If I'm using either, things have gone to hell. And if I'm about to die, I don't want to look like a complete off-perk fool with that damn sword. Running around like a bad Prince Valiant impersonation probably isn't going to work out any better than pretending to be Max Payne with the pistols, but i think I'd feel better about it.

[SMIFF]

Dual 9mm.

Absolutely useless and pointless in every single way, on any difficulty with any perk.

The other weapons, at least you can do SOMETHING with them (regardless of the price, everyone can buy whatever they want by wave 3 anyway).

Dual 9mm is clearly the worst weapon(s) to buy in the game.

Anyone voting for anything else is just being a hipster.

[Azukki]

Mac10 as Sharpshooter has the universal headshot bonus and decaps trash on any difficulty with one shot, basically like having your 9mm hold 540 rounds, so that actually can be good offperk. It's also not too horribly expensive offperk. (mp5 does this job better, though, but absolutely needs medic discount to buy) As other perks, it's pretty bad.

Bullpup can't decap trash with one shot on hard even, offperk. Can't decap on HoE if Sharp. 400 rounds for double-tapping trash heads isn't quite useless, but the 6 weight is very prohibitive.
M4 as sharp can 1-shot decap trash even on HoE. On other perks it can't on Sui or Hoe. Same for m4203, too, and that gives you a launcher. Leaves enough weight for a M14, that actually sounds half decent for sharp, so long as you don't have to pay off-perk pricing.

Shotgun only brings 48 shells to the table, fires them slowly, can only kill one/two trash zeds per shot, and weighs a whopping 8. A candidate for the worst, in my opinion. Combat shotgun is a little less slow; way more expensive, worse if buying offperk, better if not.

Dual 9mm offperk can't 1-shot decap trash on HoE or Sui, takes up 4 weight, brings no new ammo with it, and makes your 9mm slower to reload and harder to aim. It doubles the mag cap/firing rate and looks cool doing it, but that's nowhere near enough to balance out the cons. It is awful in Sharp's hands and complete garbage for anyone else.

So I'm thinking either dual 9mms or the Pump shotgun are worst. Or maybe the chainsaw, but it's not on the list.
I voted pump; although dualies are probably worse, offperk pump's terribleness was underrepresented in the votes, I thought.
I imagine the M14/Claymore are bad, but not as bad as these three.


(Off-topic, but gibby, with those assault rifle weights you could have a M4, Bullpup, and AK at once; that'd allow some crazy spamming. Bullpup/M4 5kg, AK/SCAR 6kg would be better, I think, and give M4 a needed advantage over AK)

Edit in reply to Aze's below post: (didn't want to make a new post since this is digressive from the thread)
He said

SCAR should be 6, Bullpup should be 4, and the AK/M4 should be 5.

That's BP:4 M4:5 AK:5 SCAR:6
M4+AK+Bullpup
5 + 5 + 4 = 14

[Aze]

Dual 9mm for sure. Like Azukki put it:
"Dual 9mm offperk can't 1-shot decap trash on HoE or Sui, takes up 4 weight, brings no new ammo with it, and makes your 9mm slower to reload and harder to aim. It doubles the mag cap/firing rate and looks cool doing it, but that's nowhere near enough to balance out the cons. It is awful in Sharp's hands and complete garbage for anyone else."

And another thing:

Originally Posted by Azukki

(Off-topic, but gibby, with those assault rifle weights you could have a M4, Bullpup, and AK at once; that'd allow some crazy spamming. Bullpup/M4 5kg, AK/SCAR 6kg would be better, I think, and give M4 a needed advantage over AK)

No you couldn't. With his suggestions they'd weigh 15 kg total (4+5+6) and you only have 14 kg to spare, as one is always occupied by the handgrenades!

Either way, i'd rather say: Bullpup 5, AK/M4/SCAR at 6 (Or even SCAR at 7, but give it the ability to penetrate once!). That's good enough really.

[Althamus]

Originally Posted by Aze

No you couldn't. With his suggestions they'd weigh 15 kg total (4+5+6) and you only have 14 kg to spare, as one is always occupied by the handgrenades!

Either way, i'd rather say: Bullpup 5, AK/M4/SCAR at 6 (Or even SCAR at 7, but give it the ability to penetrate once!). That's good enough really.

He meant by taking the Bullpup (4), M4 (5) and AK (5) and ignoring the SCAR (6) you could get 14.

And eh, more bullet spamming, but no powerful gun that can unload into big things.

[Aze]

Originally Posted by Althamus

He meant by taking the Bullpup (4), M4 (5) and AK (5) and ignoring the SCAR (6) you could get 14.

And eh, more bullet spamming, but no powerful gun that can unload into big things.

Ah sorry, had a little brainfart there

And about the SCAR penetration, it wouldn't make you any better against bigger enemies, only better at killing crowds (which is the job of the Commando after all). Or what did you mean with the last part?

[Althamus]

I should probably preface by saying that I don't like the commando, so despite my other classes having pretty ridiculous playtime, my commando is still at L0 :P

However, I had the impression the SCAR hit hardest out of the commando weapons, so was good for unloading into scrakes or fps. Not for killing it, but it'll deal enough damage to help someone else kill it in precisely the way the bullpup won't..

[Azukki]

He's just saying that M4/Bullpup/AK wouldn't be horribly OP because it'd require missing out on the high DPS SCAR; I don't think it was relevant to your suggestion of penetration.

Personally I don't think commando should have penetration on any rifles, though, since his whole play style is to focus on one weak specimen at a time, quickly dispose of them, and then move on to the next. Penetration is more befitting for crowd blasting and doublekill trickshots, which I think should be left to Support and Sharp to concern themselves with.

To counteract the 7 weight, a plain damage buff could be good. Or maybe even a special buff of "Do X% [eg 30%] more damage on a shot if that would be enough to kill the specimen." That would be something more befitting to a general commando bonus, though, and a bit complicated.

This is getting a bit too offtopic, though.

[Amber Glass]

i've begun to experiment with the m4/203 as medic instead of rocking the m79. the extra 2 blocks of weight is worth the 300 bullets IMO. plus since you can cancel reload now, its actually pretty useful. 12 nade cap sucks though

[World_Peace]

Dual 9mm is the worst weapon, period. A single 9mm, which is free and 0 blocks is a better way to pick off small specimens, and single or dual HCs have much more firepower with the same amount of weight. The only reason to carry a second 9mm is to sell it to the trader.

[BenioX]

Mac10 and dual pistols are pretty much same, cept Mac10 is just slightly better - same dmg, but more ammo per reload, faster (I suppose) and with easier aiming. And since Mac10 is already a rubbish offperk, I don't know how to call dual pistols...

[Keaton Fox]

I would say Dual 9mm Pistols. I don't remember how much they weigh, but couldn't they just make the second one weigh something like one block?

[BenioX]

Originally Posted by Keaton Fox

couldn't they just make the second one weigh something like one block?

Hmm sounds like a good idea, although I still don't think people would use that.

[Althamus]

Originally Posted by Keaton Fox

I would say Dual 9mm Pistols. I don't remember how much they weigh, but couldn't they just make the second one weigh something like one block?

At present, I don't get why dual pistols weigh any more.

You get double the firing rate, but lose accuracy, reload time, costs more to buy, and don't get any more ammo.

If it also doubled the ammo, THEN I'd see a point to make them weigh more. At the minute, IMHO it's just personal preference.

[C_Gibby]

Originally Posted by Althamus

IMHO it's just personal preference.

If dying is your thing, yes.