Perfect Map/analysis

[[5.SS]Strother]

I would like to present an analysis to why the Snowyforest map is so good. With this analysis I hope to encourage other mappers to make similar maps.

A lot of people consider SnowyForest to be the best map in RO. Heck yesterday I was playing as German and we captured the front line, I respawned and I ran over a small hill and saw two german teammates prone together in a crater. Artillery starts to fall around them and I'm running to them to jump in the crater as well for cover. I'm within a couple seconds of them when BOOM they both vaporize! A shell had landed directly into the crater, I jumped in anyway and I saw a boot laying there....argh it was insane.

My analysis


1. Teamwork. This map has a sense of teamwork, we are all teamwork and realism fans so we enjoy this. I will list possible reasons as to why there is a sense of teamwork.

A. People spawn close to each other, this means its easier to find someone and stick with them

B. There is one objective at a time, which makes all the players focus on that one objective so it appears that one group is working together to achieve that objective. The barbed wire fence requires it to be blown up. Thusly everyone follows the sapper and awaits him to blow it. Everyone looks around and sees everyone else nearby and they believe they are actually part of a large group. The Russians all have to defend one spot at a time and this makes them stick to the general area and they simply canno't venture to far out of the cap zone because of minefields or simple barriers, this keeps all the russians together and concentrates firepower.

C. Spawns are close enough to the objective. With spawns close to the objective it persuades the player to go after the nearest objective since it is closer to the action than anything else. This forces the team into being closer to each other.

D. The perfect cover. I've noticed there are key spots of cover right near the spawn. This encourages people to take the couple seconds and lay down there and shoot. This cover collects a lot of people since it is so near to the spawn, when people spawn in they run a few seconds and they are at the cover. This will naturally build up a group of players and when they think it is clear one guy will run forward and naturally the rest will follow his lead. I've personally seen this happen on this map several times. There is also not an extreme abundance of large amounts of cover, too much cover can lead to people sitting by themselves, sniping the entire time.

E. Map size. The map size is perfect, it isn't too big, big maps will tend to spread out the players and the action won't be as thick, there will be more 1 on 1 action with a larger map. Since the map is smaller it forces more people into a smaller area, this gives the sense of teamwork and unity since everyone can practically see each other. The smaller map also concentrates firepower which leads to more action.

2. Atmosphere, the atmosphere in this map is superb.

A. The ambience and the correct mixture of objects makes this map very believable. It could be 100 degrees in my room but when I hear the wind howl and I see the fog and snow I actually do feel cooler. The fog makes people a bit more alert and the fog mixed with the trees and cover can make for some suprises! The pine trees fit in very well with the map. The howling wind and the snow blowing is a great touch (i kind of wish there were more areas of snow blowing. While in the trench defending the fog is a great touch, seeing germans run out of it really makes you feel like you are in a snow storm.

B. The artillery is pefect. The radios are far enough away so people can't constantly call in artillery and spam it which has been known to ruin some maps. Artillery falls a couple times in a round which is just enough.

C. The map size is pefect as I stated before, in maximizing firepower on a certain area which increases the action (fun) and it forces people to work together more.

D. The balance is perfect, either side could win, it really depends on who is playing and who has more luck!

That is all I can think of right now. Hopefully some map makers will read through all of that and pick out some things that could make their map better. If I think of something else I will add it later! Thanks for reading!

[DeV]

Go and declare it holy while your at it..
Its a good map, but to start SnowyForestism is going a bit far..
The fact that you write an analysis about is nice though, could help mappers getting to nail some stuff.

[[5.SS]Strother]

Well I was saying it has the best war feel to it. And it was the best one to analysis all of the points as to why it is a good map. I like a lot of the other custom maps but most of them don't have the same feel as snowy does. By the way what I meant with the title of the thread "perfect map" i wasn't meaning snowyforest was perfect, I was hinting to how you can make a perfect map. I think if some people took those tips into consideration their map will be better.

(I'm talking about snowyforest not kurlandkessel)

[=GG= Mr Moe]

Originally Posted by [5.SS]Strother

Well I was saying it has the best war feel to it. And it was the best one to analysis all of the points as to why it is a good map. I like a lot of the other custom maps but most of them don't have the same feel as snowy does.

(I'm talking about snowyforest not kurlandkessel)

Isn't Kurlandkessel the new name and new beta of Snowy Forest b10 ???

I think Kurlandkessel is much improved over Snowy Forest b10.

In anycase, yes its a great map.

[Darkseed]

The maps that best capture the feeling of war imho are basovka, konigsplatz, snowyforest and volkhovriver (from the mod). These are all linear maps, and like Strother mentioned they do a good job of concentrating the fighting and promoting teamwork. While there are a few good non linear maps as well they just don't make you feel like you're in a war when most of the time is spent running around the map capping objectives to and fro.

[UncleJessy]

Good pointers, will keep them in mind

[Drude]

I find this map (snowyforest / kurland kessel) being quite irritating.

Pro's: It's a forest map, we didn't have one yet. Trees provide nice cover.

Cons:
-Its a pipe run, terrain outside "battlefield" looks horrible and you can't quite flank enemy like in makhnovo, where you can flank objectives from every side.

-Barbed wire that must be blown as objective, blocks bullets and its quite odd that russians would have used barbed wires in random forest.

[tochiri]

Originally Posted by [5.SS]Strother

I would like to present an analysis to why the Snowyforest map is so good. With this analysis I hope to encourage other mappers to make similar maps.

A lot of people consider SnowyForest to be the best map in RO. Heck yesterday I was playing as German and we captured the front line, I respawned and I ran over a small hill and saw two german teammates prone together in a crater. Artillery starts to fall around them and I'm running to them to jump in the crater as well for cover. I'm within a couple seconds of them when BOOM they both vaporize! A shell had landed directly into the crater, I jumped in anyway and I saw a boot laying there....argh it was insane.

My analysis


1. Teamwork. This map has a sense of teamwork, we are all teamwork and realism fans so we enjoy this. I will list possible reasons as to why there is a sense of teamwork.

A. People spawn close to each other, this means its easier to find someone and stick with them

B. There is one objective at a time, which makes all the players focus on that one objective so it appears that one group is working together to achieve that objective. The barbed wire fence requires it to be blown up. Thusly everyone follows the sapper and awaits him to blow it. Everyone looks around and sees everyone else nearby and they believe they are actually part of a large group. The Russians all have to defend one spot at a time and this makes them stick to the general area and they simply canno't venture to far out of the cap zone because of minefields or simple barriers, this keeps all the russians together and concentrates firepower.

C. Spawns are close enough to the objective. With spawns close to the objective it persuades the player to go after the nearest objective since it is closer to the action than anything else. This forces the team into being closer to each other.

D. The perfect cover. I've noticed there are key spots of cover right near the spawn. This encourages people to take the couple seconds and lay down there and shoot. This cover collects a lot of people since it is so near to the spawn, when people spawn in they run a few seconds and they are at the cover. This will naturally build up a group of players and when they think it is clear one guy will run forward and naturally the rest will follow his lead. I've personally seen this happen on this map several times. There is also not an extreme abundance of large amounts of cover, too much cover can lead to people sitting by themselves, sniping the entire time.

E. Map size. The map size is perfect, it isn't too big, big maps will tend to spread out the players and the action won't be as thick, there will be more 1 on 1 action with a larger map. Since the map is smaller it forces more people into a smaller area, this gives the sense of teamwork and unity since everyone can practically see each other. The smaller map also concentrates firepower which leads to more action.

2. Atmosphere, the atmosphere in this map is superb.

A. The ambience and the correct mixture of objects makes this map very believable. It could be 100 degrees in my room but when I hear the wind howl and I see the fog and snow I actually do feel cooler. The fog makes people a bit more alert and the fog mixed with the trees and cover can make for some suprises! The pine trees fit in very well with the map. The howling wind and the snow blowing is a great touch (i kind of wish there were more areas of snow blowing. While in the trench defending the fog is a great touch, seeing germans run out of it really makes you feel like you are in a snow storm.

B. The artillery is pefect. The radios are far enough away so people can't constantly call in artillery and spam it which has been known to ruin some maps. Artillery falls a couple times in a round which is just enough.

C. The map size is pefect as I stated before, in maximizing firepower on a certain area which increases the action (fun) and it forces people to work together more.

D. The balance is perfect, either side could win, it really depends on who is playing and who has more luck!

That is all I can think of right now. Hopefully some map makers will read through all of that and pick out some things that could make their map better. If I think of something else I will add it later! Thanks for reading!

Thank you for speaking very highly of my map.
I hear of a lot of problems at the position of the wire.
Then, two maps were made.
And, either of the server admin can be chosen.

http://www.redorchestragame.com/foru...ead.php?t=8976

Drude

The wire doesn't prevent the bullet.

[Drude]

Well, in snowyforest russians were unable to shoot me when I was ducking behind the barbed wire.

[Nimsky]

What exactly did you change in the SnowyForest -> KurlandKessel transition? Bugs aside, I kinda liked Snowy better. The games seemed more intense, I dont know what it is. Right now it takes a bit longer before you see an enemy, in the old version the action seemed to be higher. I might be wrong.
Good post btw Strother, you pretty much nailed it. Another good thing: if you TRY to stay alive, there's a big chance you will.

By the way, I really like how you wait in a position and slowly see the enemy silhouttes appearing out of the fog. Please keep that in!

[tochiri]

Originally Posted by Nimsky

What exactly did you change in the SnowyForest -> KurlandKessel transition? Bugs aside, I kinda liked Snowy better. The games seemed more intense, I dont know what it is. Right now it takes a bit longer before you see an enemy, in the old version the action seemed to be higher. I might be wrong.
Good post btw Strother, you pretty much nailed it. Another good thing: if you TRY to stay alive, there's a big chance you will.

By the way, I really like how you wait in a position and slowly see the enemy silhouttes appearing out of the fog. Please keep that in!

It might have been able to enjoy previous version's playing a game.

[Mike_Nomad]

As I see it;

Red Orchestra has built its excellent reputation on the historical accuracy and realism provided by Tripwire. An excellent winning example to follow. Accuracy and realism are the keys to true success in map making. All the specialty items only make for more of the "enjoyment factor" for users. This is a good thing as long as mappers do not lose grasp of what made Tripwire's Red Orchestra so excellent to begin with.

I am seeing an alarming trend in many of the new maps. Vehicles are either missing or rendered practically useless in some of the maps where they appear. Battle sense must be used in the application of vehicles. Much the same as Commanders used their battle experience in choosing the proper terrain/regions for staging Armored Conflict.

For Red Orchestra to grow and prosper, it must appeal to a broad cross section of users/consumers worldwide. To see maps appear left and right that have no vehicles, no armor and/or weapons restrictions will spell the beginning of the end. Vehicles and armored warfare are far more popular than seemingly many have concluded or perhaps realize.

While the new spate of maps are excellent in concept and creation, some lack the "let's play that one again" factor. Others, you simply cannot resist. They look real, feel real and play with gusto. All I ask is that vehicles never be forgotten. As we all know, they played a decisive role in WW2.

Kursk and Kharkov and other battles like them come to mind. I'm certain there are many of you who have other memorable tank battles in mind. We need more variety in the maps to keep the interest levels up for more than just the infantry only, pistols only, rifles only crowd. Seeing future maps or mutators appear with "switches" (options) to turn on or off certain vehicles/weapons/features would be a far better thing for both the players and Server Admins.

We need to reach the entire cross section of the potential RO userbase. If we do not keep open minds and pursue the big picture, we will lose. The arrogant "know it all", "we know best" attitude on other platforms has already proven this.

The only one's who know best are the consumers. For, without them we all are nothing. Empty servers are heartbreaking.

[Nestor Makhno]

I think some of the reasons vehicles are not top of most people's lists when it comes to putting them on custom maps are these:

• You do not have the fine control that you get, running, proning, diving for cover with tanks - they just lumber around.
• Tanks cannot interact with the terrain in anything but the most limited fashion - once you've grasped the concept of being hull down there's not really anywhere you can go from there.
• There is a rather limited number of tank types that can be used - this is as it should be but even maps with three types of tanks (e.g. Arad or Bond) you can still get a bit of the old 'ho-hum' factor creeping in.

The patch has made tank battles a bit more interesting - it seems to add more scope for lucky shots and immobilisation - but has not really (and probably cannot really) address the fact that a lot of the people who savour the realism aspect of RO enjoy infantry battles far more.

I, for one, would be very happy to put tanks into my maps if there were more early war models (Pz Mk II, T-35, Romanian Czech knock-offs etc.) and I would also be delighted to include Russian trucks, Kubelwagens and so on. This is because I think that big-tank maps just become slug-fests and go stale very rapidly.

Maybe when the people in the community who don't have the knowledge yet develop the skills in Maya/coding to produce new tanks/vehicles (or those that do have the ability are available to do it) you will see some original maps of the knid you seem to want.

But as it stands now, I think a lot of custom mappers just find the idea of making tank-based maps to be something that doesn't fire them up.