The Handcannon vs Mk23 and .44 Magnum

[C_Gibby]

I've been thinking about these two pistols. Let me get it out of the way first that I absolutely love the Mk23.

I think that in the scope of aaaalll the guns in KF, the Mk23 is actually quite balanced, and it's valuable for everyone, which is exactly how a pistol should be.

However, everyone think's it is OP because it devalues the handcannon. It's not that the Mk23 is OP as a weapon, it's just that the Handcannon is easily devalued.

How is it devalued? The 9mm, Mk23, and .44 are all quite fine on their own, they've all got their places. It's just that their greater flexibility renders the handcannon somewhat obsolete. Those pistols can do anything that the handcannon can so there's little point to buying a handgun that weighs you down twice as much.

The .44 and Mk23 can both two-shot a crawler on HOE, and so can the handcannon. That goes to show that there is only a small damage difference. If the handcannon weighed 2kg, it'd be a matter of personal preference, but it in fact weighs twice as much as those, and has a significantly lower ammo pool. So the handcannon is simply at a disadvantage, it's not really worth carrying.

Nerfing the Mk23/.44 would make them pretty crap, so we shouldn't do that. It'd make the guns themselves quite a waste in-game.

Instead, I think we should - wait for it - buff the handcannon to respond to the addition of the Mk23 and the .44.

To compensate for the Handcannon's disadvantages, the handcannon should be made more powerful. You know, like the very heavy, noisy, high-calibre, high-recoil, nasty, meaty sidearm it's supposed to be, like it USED to be, back in the UT04 mod days.

Simply put, it could do with a sizeable damage and penetration potency increase. Not so powerful that one can take on scrakes and fleshpounds, but definitely deal with trash way faster (especially crawlers!) and prove to be helpful against husks and sirens.

To end with, it would be a case of this for the handcannon:

Advantages

• Accurate enough.
• Capable of one-shotting a crawler.
• Rips through smaller zeds with its (slightly) enhanced penetration capability.
• Generally packs a larger punch than the other handguns, which makes it precious.

Disadvantages

• Weighs twice as much as the other handguns. It won't fit into many loadouts this way, e.g. it won't be fitting into the powerful FAL/SCAR combo for Commando. It may be only seen in the hands of medics, sharpies, and demos.
• It has a smaller amount of total ammo (96 or so, as opposed to the .44's 120-odd and Mk23's 140-odd).
• It could also be a little more expensive, like £600 (as opposed to the .44's £450 and the Mk23's £500).
• Like it always has had, it has a sizeable amount of recoil and a fire rate that prevents ninja-like shooting that we enjoy so much with the 9mm, Mk23, and .44.

Now does that not sound balanced? The .44 and Mk23 keep their rightful places, and the handcannon remains the king of the pistols.

[greenlemonade]

Agreed! MK23 is a welcome and balanced pistol. It also looks and sounds very cool.

[Azukki]

It seems a solid idea, until you consider how the beefed up HC would affect the LAR's relative usefulness.
The only thing that the LAR would have to compete with the super HC is an extra 2 capacity. Everything else as far as I can imagine would be in super HC's favor.

One can already "can" take on Scrakes on HoE with a handcannon. .44 and MK23, too, even. If I've done it on testmap6p, then I'm sure someone that's actually good at the game can do it in some limited circumstances in a real game.

And the MK23 wouldn't be a waste of time if it were nerfed damage-wise, as long as it retained the ability to decapitate trash with headshots offperk on HoE 6man. (41 or more base damage, a perfect half of the current value)
Actually, I'd rather like it if it had that level of damage, cost 350, and went back to the recoil level that it had as a mod. But this is a Handcannon thread, and I digress.

[C_Gibby]

I'm glad to see that people like this idea so far! C:

However, I do believe that the Mk23 is fine as it is. After all, the .44 magnum is a step above it in terms of damage (is it?), and I think that it's right that it's a pinch weaker than the .44. But again, this is a Handcannon thread, not a Mk23/.44 thread. Though there isn't too much to be said about those two. At least as far as I see. o:

[Rhenna]

Originally Posted by C_Gibby

I'm glad to see that people like this idea so far! C:

However, I do believe that the Mk23 is fine as it is. After all, the .44 magnum is a step above it in terms of damage (is it?), and I think that it's right that it's a pinch weaker than the .44. But again, this is a Handcannon thread, not a Mk23/.44 thread. Though there isn't too much to be said about those two. At least as far as I see. o:

I'll offer 30 years of shooting experience, and 14 years of working for a major firearms and ammunition manufacturer, (who shall remain nameless), in an attempt to clarify this matter. Those who are bored/offended by gun-talk can bail now.

First, let's assume that the HC is firing the .50 Action Express round. (I feel this is so; others are convinced it's firing the .44 Magnum.) I only mention this because, if it is firing the .44 Magnum, there shouldn't be any meaningful distinction, in terms of power, between the HC and the revolver, and this matter is closed.

Let's now imagine a "power" index for all the Killing Floor handguns; a scale of 1 through 10. (10 represents the most powerful.)

If the HC is actually chambered for the .50AE, let's assign it a 10 on this scale.

At the other end of the spectrum, we have the 9mm. Let's assign it a 5. Why not a "1", if it's the "weakest" pistol? First, I don't think we require the granularity that sort of ranking would provide. Secondly, one never knows if a pistol further down on the food-chain might surface. (Perhaps, Agent 007's Walther PPK in .32ACP?) Thirdly, assigning it a "1" seems a bit disrespectful.

If these represent our extremes, then, I'd rank the Mk.23 as a 6.

The .44 Magnum revolver would probably be about an 8.5.

Some might, with perfectly valid justification, argue that the 9mm and Mk.23 should be roughly equivalent. The 9mm has a higher velocity. The .45 Mk.23 fires a round some 27% larger in diameter, and twice as heavy. A "6" for the H&K seems about right to me.

Actually, there is such a enormous range of ammunition for all four of these pistols that these numbers could easily shift a bit. I imagined military full metal-jacketed rounds for the 9mm and Mk.23; commercial jacketed soft-points for the HC and revolver. These struck me as being the most likely and logical to the Killing Floor scenario.

I like Gibby's HC-buff concept, including not toying too much, if at all, with the other handguns. The .50AE *is* a beast. About a 19% increase in diameter, and 25% increase in bullet weight over the .44 Magnum, at the same, or often higher, velocity. It will leave a mark...

A buff wouldn't be inappropriate.

[Azukki]

Originally Posted by Rhenna

if it is firing the .44 Magnum, there shouldn't be any meaningful distinction, in terms of power, between the HC and the revolver, and this matter is closed.

You explicitly saying that the matter is closed really makes me want to bring up the revolver's cylinder gap, handcannon's gas system's porting of the gas from the barrel to the action, and how revolver barrel length measurements don't include the chamber, which grants a tiny leeway of difference, but in the context of a video game, that's picking the misplaced molecules off of nits' backs, and you did say "meaningful," so I suppose I really shouldn't.


So I guess instead I'll make this post elaborate on how a crawler killing HC would compare to the LAR
6 vs 4, lar loses on weight
2 vs 1.1, lar wins headshot bonus
10 vs 8, lar wins capacity
140 vs 123, lar wins damage, a little, potentially
0.9 vs .25, lar loses offperk fire rate, a lot
0.53 vs .25, lar loses onperk fire rate
200 vs 500, lar wins offperk price
200 vs 150, lar loses onperk price, unless you raise HC's base cost to 666+
0.67x3 vs 2.2, lar wins for reloading 1/2/3 rounds
0.67x10 vs 2.2, lar loses for reloading 4/5/6/7/8 rounds
80 vs 84, lar loses on ammo reserve
I've no numbers, but lar loses on recoil
No number, but lar wins on obstructing less view with irons up.
Sight picture is pretty subjective. I think it's a toss up, maybe a small LAR win.

[C_Gibby]

On the topic of realistic comparisions, I personally think that they shouldn't be brought into it. At least not that much. I mean, the general proportions of the pistol damage values is realistic-ish as it is, but for the sake of balance it shouldn't hurt to push the "realism" barrier a little bit here and there.

Besides there's two places where the Handcannon is referred to as a .50AE gun. Player characters would refer to it as ".50 cal" and back in the days of the old redscale trader menu where the weapons actually had descriptions assigned to them, the Handcannon was named as being .50AE.

The wierd bit is that it has a shot capacity of 8. But that's mostly it.

Originally Posted by Azukki

So I guess instead I'll make this post elaborate on how a crawler killing HC would compare to the LAR
6 vs 4, lar loses on weight
2 vs 1.1, lar wins headshot bonus
10 vs 8, lar wins capacity
140 vs 123, lar wins damage, a little, potentially
0.9 vs .25, lar loses offperk fire rate, a lot
0.53 vs .25, lar loses onperk fire rate
200 vs 500, lar wins offperk price
200 vs 150, lar loses onperk price, unless you raise HC's base cost to 666+
0.67x3 vs 2.2, lar wins for reloading 1/2/3 rounds
0.67x10 vs 2.2, lar loses for reloading 4/5/6/7/8 rounds
80 vs 84, lar loses on ammo reserve
I've no numbers, but lar loses on recoil
No number, but lar wins on obstructing less view with irons up.
Sight picture is pretty subjective. I think it's a toss up, maybe a small LAR win.

Yeah, the LAR actually has a lot of advantages over the HC, buff or not. The current price difference between the LAR and HC is just about fair, and with a HC buff, a slightly increased price for the HC would still be quite fair.

[CandleJack]

Originally Posted by Azukki

[SIZE=1][SIZE=2]It seems a solid idea, until you consider how the beefed up HC would affect the LAR's relative usefulness.
The only thing that the LAR would have to compete with the super HC is an extra 2 capacity. Everything else as far as I can imagine would be in super HC's favor.

The LAR has better sights on it, while the Handcannon has fairly good sights, they're the old notch and post type, where as the LAR's is aperture.

It's better for long-range shooting, and i'd say the round-by-round fighting potential is a strong point for the LAR.

[KeeblerElf]

I'm pretty shocked no one has yet said that the HC is already the weapon you describe.

The HC can one-shot crawlers (just aim for the head). It also has the ability to kill 4 trash specimens with a single bullet - that's very high penetration for a sidearm; any more would probably be too much. In fact, I have seen a skilled sharpshooter kill literally dozens of zeds with a single HC clip, which makes it an excellent choice for trash (and the main reason it's such a popular sidearm to the crossbow).

Maybe I'm crazy, but the HC has always felt like a powerful weapon to me, and I've certainly seen it used to great effect. Its high penetration is probably its best quality, as the gun's capacity otherwise yields a deceptively low approximation to its killing potential.

[C_Gibby]

Originally Posted by KeeblerElf

The HC can one-shot crawlers (just aim for the head).

And with that, you missed the entire point of the suggestion.

Every single pistol in the game can oneshot a crawler in the head. The Mk23, .44, and HC can two-shot the crawler in the body, and one-shot in the head.

That makes spending the extra weight blocks with the smaller ammo pool for the handcannon practically pointless when you can take the faster-shooting, higher-capacity, lighter weapons instead, rendering the Handcannon obsolete.

If the handcannon could off crawlers in one shot, it'd put it a step above from those two other guns, and an extra 7 points of damage is only a tiny buff.

[KeeblerElf]

Originally Posted by C_Gibby

And with that, you missed the entire point of the suggestion.

Every single pistol in the game can oneshot a crawler in the head. The Mk23, .44, and HC can two-shot the crawler in the body, and one-shot in the head.

That makes spending the extra weight blocks with the smaller ammo pool for the handcannon practically pointless when you can take the faster-shooting, higher-capacity, lighter weapons instead, rendering the Handcannon obsolete.

If the handcannon could off crawlers in one shot, it'd put it a step above from those two other guns, and an extra 7 points of damage is only a tiny buff.

A bit of misplaced sarcasm on my part, but the point nonetheless had to be made: it's not as though the HC can't one-shot a crawler; it just requires the player to not use sloppy aiming in order to do so on the hardest difficulty. Personally, I see no problem with this, as the HC is plenty useful as-is (but I already gave my opinion on why this is so). To call the HC obsolete is nothing short of silly: it has fantastic stopping power, and plenty of ammo for most reasonable situations.

While I agree that killing a crawler with a HC body shot on HoE would be convenient, I hardly think that's necessary to keep the HC a totally viable choice. In fact, an easy option is typically to use the HC's penetration to hit a crawler once or twice through something else (depending on distance, etc.), thereby using at most one dedicated bullet to kill it anyway.

[C_Gibby]

Originally Posted by KeeblerElf

While I agree that killing a crawler with a HC body shot on HoE would be convenient, I hardly think that's necessary to keep the HC a totally viable choice. In fact, an easy option is typically to use the HC's penetration to hit a crawler once or twice through something else (depending on distance, etc.), thereby using at most one dedicated bullet to kill it anyway.

It's not that it's more "viable" as such. It's more to do with that it does something that the Mk23/.44 can't do, which makes purchasing a HC a bit more appealing. It's not much of a buff at all, but the point is to encourage players to use it more. The Handcannon should NOT be a sidegrade weapon like it is now, one that happens to weigh twice as much as the other guns.

The HC is cool to use, yes, but it just does not stand out. There's not enough reason to take it for anything other than personal preference, which is something an experienced, knowledgable player would not do as the HC has some sheer disadvantages compared to other guns (low ammo pool, high recoil, slow fire rate, twice the weight).

Right now, it's as if the only reason that people would choose to go for this gun despite its negative points is because it is - aesthetically speaking - "cool".

The Mk23 has lots of ammo and fires fast and so accurately and weighs less than HC. Why not use that instead of HC for anti-crawler roles?
The .44 shoots ultra fast, reloads ultra fast, is cheaper, weighs less than HC, and 2-shots crawlers like the current HC. Why not use that instead of HC for anti-crawler roles?

Why is the HC so great now? It isn't. The usage of the HC instead of the other guns is a detriment in itself. The point of the minor buff is to patch up that detriment.

[KeeblerElf]

Originally Posted by C_Gibby

It's not that it's more "viable" as such. It's more to do with that it does something that the Mk23/.44 can't do, which makes purchasing a HC a bit more appealing. It's not much of a buff at all, but the point is to encourage players to use it more. The Handcannon should NOT be a sidegrade weapon like it is now, one that happens to weigh twice as much as the other guns.

The HC is cool to use, yes, but it just does not stand out. There's not enough reason to take it for anything other than personal preference, which is something an experienced, knowledgable player would not do as the HC has some sheer disadvantages compared to other guns (low ammo pool, high recoil, slow fire rate, twice the weight).

Right now, it's as if the only reason that people would choose to go for this gun despite its negative points is because it is - aesthetically speaking - "cool".

The Mk23 has lots of ammo and fires fast and so accurately and weighs less than HC. Why not use that instead of HC for anti-crawler roles?
The .44 shoots ultra fast, reloads ultra fast, is cheaper, weighs less than HC, and 2-shots crawlers like the current HC. Why not use that instead of HC for anti-crawler roles?

Why is the HC so great now? It isn't. The usage of the HC instead of the other guns is a detriment in itself. The point of the minor buff is to patch up that detriment.

Here's are a couple things the HC can do, which I claim no other pistol can.
-Kill 4 targets with a single bullet (therefore making its total ammo count a poor indicator of its total killing potential, particularly for an experienced player).
-Stun trash with a body shot, allowing the player to buy extra time when desired over a headshot.

In addition, it's reload speed is second only to the 9mm, and it offers the most stopping power per clip (making reloading less dangerous in general).

If you're looking to pick up a gun purely to kill crawlers (which I can't say I've done before), then I would agree that the advantages I just described are largely useless. But it's silly to pretend that this is the only reason a player would get a HC, and even worse to assert that the weapon is obsolete just because it doesn't outperform other similar weapons in a role for which it probably wasn't designed in the first place.

And for what it's worth, one of the things that makes HoE so enjoyable for me is the fact that crawlers become far more pesky to handle with a sidearm. Is it frustrating sometimes? Of course it is. But I wouldn't want it any easier.

[YoYoBatty]

Handcannon is now useless? Wat do? Make it shewt lazor. Fixed.

[Trotskygrad]

I'm all for this buff, since I hate crawlers with a passion.