New level of Difficulty

[Left 4 Dinner]

So my reasoning for thinking of this, is because of the idea of “what if there was an increase in the level caps?” So if there ever was such a thing, then why not have another level of difficulty? As it stands, many of us do not think that such a thing will occur, but if there was a level increase, would simply increasing the basic stats for zds be justified? If there was another level of difficulty, I suggest that it be called Apocalyptic. Apocalyptic, sounds pretty big and bad***, and its probably going to be one of those difficulties that would be very hard, if not near impossible to beat. A simple design for the icon used when finding a server with this difficulty, it could be a red skull with white eyes and a flame shooting out of the backside.

So thats my reasoning for having another level of difficulty, but its simply increasing the various abilities of zeds. In my opinion, and I think others would agree with me, that sounds to simple and very boring. As it stands, Hell on Earth has been considered too easy for some, while others think that its a good challenge, so I'm proposing various ways of changing the game play for a game on HoE difficulty.



The Hell on Earth Concept changes:

Husks are still very resistant to FB’s, but this time, they cannot be set on fire. Also, FB’s CAN be damaged by Husk’s firecannon, if they are directly hit by the shot. (The damage inflicted is just like how the All husk mutator is.)

10-15 seconds less time for trader (better know where it is, where any shortcuts are, and what your wanting to buy)

Zeds spawn in smaller numbers (just slightly, but it’s a way of giving a slight, fighting chance for the players)

Patriarch’s overall damage, speed, and health is kept the same, but he can heal a fourth time, OR Patriarch’s overall damage, speed, and health are all the same, but when he runs away to heal, he can heal for a higher percentage of health.

Zeds are tactically “smarter”, and will try to entrap a group. A basic example is that if a swarm of clots and crawlers are heading to a group of players, the clots would go and attack from the front while the crawlers would keep behind and attempt to circle around the players before attacking. The one upside to this is that it makes the zeds more vulnerable, but if they go unnoticed, then they can be a nasty surprise. This doesn’t apply to FP’s, scrakes, husk, or sirens. This promotes better awareness of a player’s own surroundings.

No weapons or armor spawn during the round. Only ammo packs do, but rarely. However, during trading time, there will be at least one ammo pack that is present, 1 weapon that is present, and a possible chance of armor that is present (chances of armor is very slim to none, but it’s still possible)

Stalker’s and Patty’s cloaking devices are rigged in a way such that a commando can still see them, but they appear to “blink”. Each “blink” lasts for about a half a second. This forces commandos to remember where he last saw the zed, and gives him a greater challenge.

Zeds react better to grenades and try to avoid them the best they can

Zeds don’t waste time eating player's corpses (sounds kinda silly, but when they do eat a body, it makes them open to attacks, so removing that will make them more focus on their goal.) or by eating a player's corpse, the zed is able to heal if it is injured.

Fleshpound's rage meter only resets if it loses site of a player. Even if it takes a small amount of damage over time, it wont reset unless it loses sight of the player. (I figured that I would say it and see what people think. Some people will hate me for suggesting it, others, will like the concept. I'm mixed about it, but I doubt any of this will be used.)

Possibly ease up on the sharpshooters head shot multiplier, in order to make it better for sharpy's

[nutterbutter]

You're making a game for 6 zerkers.

infinite ammo
permanent armor
no need for cash
speed to get out of trouble

[Ajk1230]

New difficulty: yes
New perk levels: yes
New stats/bonuses: no

[Tenska]

Originally Posted by nutterbutter

You're making a game for 6 zerkers.

infinite ammo
permanent armor
no need for cash
speed to get out of trouble

Increase maximum spawns to 50 and zerkers must be surrounded at some point.

[nutterbutter]

Originally Posted by Tenska

Increase maximum spawns to 50 and zerkers must be surrounded at some point.

And that would do what? Being surrounded doesn't really matter to zerker. Zerkers can simply power fight their way out. They have the speed to outrun specimens. They can't be held by clots. That btw, is extremely OP. They have permanent armor.

Let me give you a perfect example. The team, except for a couple zerkers, wiped on mountain pass. I'm watching this zerker and he is being stalked by an FP and kiting a large amount of other specimens. He runs into the room in the mountain at the far end of the map. The one with the truck out front and the trader across the road. So he's kiting an FP and another dozen specimens. So he runs into the room by the truck and instead of running out and across the road to the trader area, he turns left and goes upstairs. He runs upstairs and turns the corner and there is another FP with another 6 or so specimens. Zerker simply runs past the second FP kills a couple specimens and runs past the rest and goes outside. No other perk survives such a situation and the zerker survived it completely unscathed.

Zerker can't be surrounded unless the zerker allows himself to be surrounded.

Originally Posted by Left 4 Dinner

Well, maybe there could be a perk limit for beserkers in this newer difficulty level. Only one zerk allowed in a 6 man server game. And yeah its a shame that it would boil down to going with a class that absically doesnt need ammo, but I was just hoping that poeple like my firends and I would see the challenge, and attempt to do it without resorting to easy measures.

One zerker would still break it because the point it to survive it, right? One zerker finishing each wave isn't really surviving it. It is a "get out of jail free card" each wave. Keep in mind, my comments aren't about your suggestions, just how zerkers simply get around everything and make the additional difficulties "not difficult."

Now if you and your friends want to play the new difficulty then that would be fine because I'm guessing you and your friends would want the challenge and not load the team up with zerkers. I'm just pointing out what would happen in a pub game where many, many people like to be basically invulnerable and play the zerker so they will not die and will always be the guy that saves the team each wave.

[Left 4 Dinner]

Originally Posted by nutterbutter

One zerker would still break it because the point it to survive it, right? One zerker finishing each wave isn't really surviving it. It is a "get out of jail free card" each wave. Keep in mind, my comments aren't about your suggestions, just how zerkers simply get around everything and make the additional difficulties "not difficult."

Now if you and your friends want to play the new difficulty then that would be fine because I'm guessing you and your friends would want the challenge and not load the team up with zerkers. I'm just pointing out what would happen in a pub game where many, many people like to be basically invulnerable and play the zerker so they will not die and will always be the guy that saves the team each wave.

Agree, and thats why I dont mind having one person being a beserker, just in case things get out of hand. But like you said, its not whether people like you or me would do the "all zerk" thing, but what people on most PUBS would do, and Ive had my fair share of servers where everyone was either a lvl 6 medic, or lvl 6 beserker, and although it can get out of hand, its always a sure bet that either one of the perks could outrun the zeds and eventually kill all of the zeds that trailed behind.



@TheMutant, thats why I brought the idea of changing what is already given, besides just doing the basic, or usual, changes because just using the "slider" to bump up the zed's speed, health, damage, etc. would be too easy. With the bigger concept changes, it would add new challenges to the highest level of difficulty.

Im starting to wonder if I should just change this from a "new level of difficulty", to simply "improvements for Hell on Earth". Thoughts on whether I should just change this to improvements for HoE difficulty?

[nutterbutter]

Originally Posted by Left 4 Dinner

Agree, and thats why I dont mind having one person being a beserker, just in case things get out of hand.

But the OP zerker is what breaks the game and your suggestion. A perfect example is your reasoning above. The reason to pay the game is to win right? The zerker is a "get out of jail free" card. Let's say all of your changes are implemented and your friends and you are playing. Your team has a single zerker "just in case." So your team, save zerker, wipes on wave 2. Zerker finishes wave. Everyone respawns. Say the team gets through waves 3 and 4 but wipes, except zerker, on wave 5. Zerker finishes wave. And so on.

Is the team really playing the game or are they simply progressing through the game no matter what they do or what happens? Putting a halfway decent zerker in the game basically gives the entire team invulnerability during a game. Then it is just a waiting game to get to Patty and getting the achievement.

[Diablo50]

Originally Posted by Left 4 Dinner

So my reasoning for thinking of this, is because of the idea of “what if there was an increase in the level caps?” So if there ever was such a thing, then why not have another level of difficulty. A difficulty that pushes the limits of the players with their new increase in stats and bonuses. A difficulty that challenges the hardest of veterans.

So, my idea was to make another difficulty that incorporates the basics of an increased difficulty, along with other ideas that make it harder. Now, some of the ideas I bring up with the “big concept changes”, can be a bit overwhelming and would prove to be very hard to work with, but if perk’s stats improve, and player’s ability improve, then they should be able to adapt to the new difficulty. Also, I had a hard time trying to think of a name for the difficulty, because Hell on Earth sounds pretty darn tough, so I did the best I can, and came up with Apocalyptic or Perpetual Damnation. Apocalyptic, sounds pretty big and bad***, and perpetual damnation reminds me of the long and relentless battles against the zeds. And as for the design of the icon used when finding a server with this difficulty, it could be a red skull with white eyes and a flame shooting out of the backside.


The Basic Concept changes:

Increase in the amount of total zeds

Health and speed increase for zeds

Bounty decreases for each zed

Players can’t escape from clots still

Overall damage output from zeds is increased (with increased damage, zeds affected by bloat’s puke, and Husk’s fire cannon, are increased as well)

The amount of damage required to stun a zed. is slightly higher than that of Hell on Earth

Headshot bonuses for Sharpshooters is the same as Hell on Earth



The Big Concept changes:

Husks are 90% resistant to FB’s, and cannot be set on fire. Also, FB’s CAN be damaged by Husk’s firecannon, if they are directly hit by the shot

10-15 seconds less time for trader (better know where it is, where any shortcuts are, and what your wanting to buy)

Zeds spawn in smaller numbers (just slightly, but it’s a way of giving a slight, fighting chance for the players)

Patriarch’s overall damage, speed, and health is the same as Hell on Earth (maybe slightly less), but he can heal a fourth time, OR Patriarch’s overall damage, speed, and health are all increased slightly, but he is left with the default of 3 heals.

Zeds are tactically “smarter”, and will try to entrap a group. A basic example is that if a swarm of clots and crawlers are heading to a group of players, the clots would go and attack from the front while the crawlers would keep behind and attempt to circle around the players before attacking. The one upside to this is that it makes the zeds more vulnerable, but if they go unnoticed, then they can be a nasty surprise. This doesn’t apply to FP’s, scrakes, husk, or sirens. This promotes better awareness of a player’s own surroundings.

No weapons or armor spawn during the round. Only ammo packs do, but very rarely. However, during trading time, there will be at least one ammo pack that is present, 1 weapon that is present, and a possible chance of armor that is present (chances of armor is very slim to none, but it’s still possible)

Stalker’s and Patty’s cloaking devices are rigged in a way such that a commando can still see them, but they appear to “blink”. Each “blink” lasts for about a half a second. This forces commandos to remember where he last saw the zed, and gives him a greater challenge

Zeds react better to grenades and try to avoid them the best they can

Zeds don’t waste time eating corpses (sounds kinda silly, but when they do eat a body, it makes them open to attacks, so removing that will make them more focus on their goal.)



So thats the basic outline that I have for now. I plan on writing the exact numbers of things, like how much bounty each received from each zed killed, how much health that each zed has, etc. but I just wanted to get my idea out there for the time being. Feel free to say what you think of it, and if theres any thing to add/remove, then just say what and possibly explain why.

Awesome idea ! I am want new difficulty and new perk level ( level 7 ) and new maps ! I think HOE is easy....so need new difficulty

[Left 4 Dinner]

Originally Posted by nutterbutter

You're making a game for 6 zerkers.

infinite ammo
permanent armor
no need for cash
speed to get out of trouble

Unfortunatly, that is a possibility, but for those who want a real challenge, they wouldnt go bezerker.

Originally Posted by Diablo50

Awesome idea! I want new difficulty and new perk level ( level 7 ) and new maps! I think HOE is easy....so need new difficulty

Thanks! I know i love new maps too, but Im mixed about HOE being too easy. For most maps, its a tough challenge, but for some, its either too easy, or too hard. Ive been able to play HOE on most maps, but Im still unable to win it on Biotics lab. I think its because the map is really small and cramped, and having to camp at the spawning area is very dangerous.

[Diablo50]

I am done all HOE map and the biotics is not so hard just need a good team and camp in the starting spawn area.If you want i am help you in the Biotics HOE map for win

[Left 4 Dinner]

Originally Posted by Diablo50

I am done all HOE map and the biotics is not so hard just need a good team and camp in the starting spawn area.If you want i am help you in the Biotics HOE map for win

thats the thing "Good team". Ive played with people who I think are considered really good, and we usually have a balance setup. The last time I played there on HoE, we got wiped out on the 9th wave, but we had me as a medic, 1 zerk, 2 supports, 1 sharpy, and a demolitions guy. All of us were lvl 6's, but the mix of FP's and sirens proved to be too much for us.

[Althamus]

Firstly, I like that you've had some new ideas for the game, rather than the standard "Everything is like HoE but +10%".

Few thoughts:
When the last difficulty was introduced, it was shuffled just below the hardest difficulty and all the stats for everything was shuffled around a bit. Meaning that it would be possible for HoE to become slightly easier and reduce the gap between that and suicidal (if indeed it is too large) and put the new difficulty in on top. I'm thinking primarily of things like movement speeds. Already, if you are hurt and have something chasing you, it is a real challenge to clear the faster things behind while keeping the way infront clear if you're not a berserker. Faster movement speeds again would be pretty brutal IMHO.

Increase the scrake stunning level. Not sure on this one. You can stun reliably them atm with sharp's Xbow/LAR and zerker claymore/axe? Oh, and husk cannon (lol). And LAW I guess. Although the latter two are rarer ways of stunning them IMHO.
But the LAR, axe and claymore are all only JUST able to stun them, if the threshold increases anymore, they'll all be out. And on the average group, that'll mean scrakes will just be up to sharpshooters with Xbows.

Maybe instead of ramping up zed damage (after all, on HoE if a non-zerk/medic gets hit in the back by a couple of gorefasts, he's dead if he has no armour. It's already pretty brutal), how about reducing zerker/medic resistance? They're the only classes who can last more than a couple of hits anyways.

I agree with the no weapon/armour spawn, but yea, an ammo spawn is needed to prevent players from being forced to wait for scrakes to die forever alone.

Thought about giving the husk/siren's damage resistance in the same way that scrakes have it on suicidal+? Might be a bit too brutal with a siren, but maybe cool for the husk.

Other than that, sounds cool.

[Undedd Jester]

Originally Posted by Left 4 Dinner

Unfortunatly, that is a possibility, but for those who want a real challenge, they wouldnt go bezerker.

Thats true... unfortunately anyone picking a Berserker forces the rest of the team to build appropriately without them. 2 Berserkers means the team is extremely limited in what it can do. 3 Berserkers and any hope of a team comp is gone, its go Berserker or die.

This new difficulty would suffer with the same problem HoE does. Players who simply refuse to actually learn how to play the game and operate on the principle "Duh, I'm level 6 I can kill anything HueHueHue!"

[pie1055]

I like the individual ideas, but why a separate new difficulty? I would think that the current five would cover a diverse enough skillset (complete newb, practicing, learning, honing, perfecting). Why not take these ideas and incorporate them into hell on earth? If you ask me hoe is not that different from suicidal in terms of difficulty as it stands.

[Left 4 Dinner]

Originally Posted by nutterbutter

Not a possibility; It's a fact. The game boils down to DoT. More specimens at a time means the players have to do more damage per second or "create" more seconds. More health and speed for specimens favors dramatically favors infinite ammo weapons for the former and zerker speed for the latter. Bounty decreases specifically favor infinite ammo weapons. Insta-clot grab still favors zerkers. Overall damage output again favors zerkers with their permanent armor. Lower trader time favors zerkers and medics. No spawning weapons or armor, and almost no ammo packs, dramatically favor zerkers for the above reasons.

And so on...

Look, as long there are zerkers in the game and the game stays geared to favor zerkers, they will always be OP. Anything done to increase difficulty will invariably make the game more difficult for other perks and have a slight impact, at best, to the zerker. This isn't directed at you or your suggestion. The zerker is OP and that is just the way it is and how the game is designed. And how it will stay.

You want to make the game more difficult? Make a mod where none of the players can be a zerker and everything else falls into place. Players have to play the game. Ammo matters to everyone. Teamwork matters. Players have to stick together. The game is more difficult to everyone and any changes in the game affects all players.

Well, maybe there could be a perk limit for beserkers in this newer difficulty level. Only one zerk allowed in a 6 man server game. And yeah its a shame that it would boil down to going with a class that absically doesnt need ammo, but I was just hoping that poeple like my firends and I would see the challenge, and attempt to do it without resorting to easy measures.

In a way, its like how some people chainsaw gangbang the patty. yeah its possible and easy to do, but its too easy and just not right.

Originally Posted by pie1055

I like the individual ideas, but why a separate new difficulty? I would think that the current five would cover a diverse enough skillset (complete newb, practicing, learning, honing, perfecting). Why not take these ideas and incorporate them into hell on earth? If you ask me hoe is not that different from suicidal in terms of difficulty as it stands.

Actually, I agree with that. HoE doesnt feel that much different from suicidal, especially if you mainly play between those two types of difficulties. Perhaps certain aspects of my ideas could be implemented into HoE. I think the simple things like cloaked zeds "blinking" for commandos, zeds attempting to better avoid grenades and husks being able to deal impact damage to firebugs, would be nice little changes that give it that extra bit of difficulty.


Im glad people seem to like the idea of adding new concepts into a new, or current difficulty. I think that if just one or maybe even two of tthese things were added, then some people would agree that the challenge for HoE would be a little bit greater. Any other suggestions for what could be added?

[nutterbutter]

Originally Posted by Left 4 Dinner

Unfortunatly, that is a possibility, but for those who want a real challenge, they wouldnt go bezerker.

Not a possibility; It's a fact. The game boils down to DoT. More specimens at a time means the players have to do more damage per second or "create" more seconds. More health and speed for specimens favors dramatically favors infinite ammo weapons for the former and zerker speed for the latter. Bounty decreases specifically favor infinite ammo weapons. Insta-clot grab still favors zerkers. Overall damage output again favors zerkers with their permanent armor. Lower trader time favors zerkers and medics. No spawning weapons or armor, and almost no ammo packs, dramatically favor zerkers for the above reasons.

And so on...

Look, as long there are zerkers in the game and the game stays geared to favor zerkers, they will always be OP. Anything done to increase difficulty will invariably make the game more difficult for other perks and have a slight impact, at best, to the zerker. This isn't directed at you or your suggestion. The zerker is OP and that is just the way it is and how the game is designed. And how it will stay.

You want to make the game more difficult? Make a mod where none of the players can be a zerker and everything else falls into place. Players have to play the game. Ammo matters to everyone. Teamwork matters. Players have to stick together. The game is more difficult to everyone and any changes in the game affects all players.

[Arblarg]

Originally Posted by Left 4 Dinner

Lets add even another difficulty on top of the already hardest difficulty, where <2% of players have completed any given map on said difficulty.

I really can't believe people talk about having an even higher difficulty when despite the above, ~30% of KF owners haven't even killed 100 specimen.


Tripwires time could be much better spent with other things than actually giving specimen brains. HoE is plenty hard, if you say its too easy its because you've peaked out on KF skill, or you and your friends are a well oiled machine. There are plenty of mutators out there to already increase difficulty if you really insist on making things harder. If anything goes wrong in a hole up situation, things can go to hell in a handbasket in just seconds on HoE.

KF doesn't need to have another top difficulty, its fine just the way it is.

[Left 4 Dinner]

Originally Posted by Arblarg

I really can't believe people talk about having an even higher difficulty when despite the above, ~30% of KF owners haven't even killed 100 specimen.


Tripwires time could be much better spent with other things than actually giving specimen brains. HoE is plenty hard, if you say its too easy its because you've peaked out on KF skill, or you and your friends are a well oiled machine. There are plenty of mutators out there to already increase difficulty if you really insist on making things harder. If anything goes wrong in a hole up situation, things can go to hell in a handbasket in just seconds on HoE.

KF doesn't need to have another top difficulty, its fine just the way it is.

lol, didnt notice that about 30% of people haven't killed 100 zeds. I think thas due in part to the fact that some people have bought it, played it, didnt like it, and now just leave it, because anyone who plays KF, should be able to get at least 100 kills. Also, the whole purpose of this thread, was to just give way to the possibility that if a higher level for perks was created, that there should be another level of difficulty, or else the current hardest difficulty (HoE) would be too easy for level 7's. Now, this could be passed as a mutator, since level 7 is currently not released. Although, I don't know how to create mutators, so Im just letting this hang here.

[Arblarg]

Originally Posted by Left 4 Dinner

lol, didnt notice that about 30% of people haven't killed 100 zeds. I think thas due in part to the fact that some people have bought it, played it, didnt like it, and now just leave it, because anyone who plays KF, should be able to get at least 100 kills.
so Im just letting this hang here.

Well that is a problem right there. People that lose interest right at the very start. Correct my math, but I believe 100 specimen is ~2.5 waves on beginner in solo. I understand that some of these people are those who bought the game on sale and just never installed it, but for the others who played and quit on the first game, its just a sad statistic.

More content needs to be added to help new players before we add more content for those with all maps completed on all difficulties all perks level 6 and over 1000 hour players. There is plenty of un-explored mod content out there that can easily add hundreds more hours of fun time.

Originally Posted by Left 4 Dinner

Also, the whole purpose of this thread, was to just give way to the possibility that if a higher level for perks was created, that there should be another level of difficulty, or else the current hardest difficulty (HoE) would be too easy for level 7's.

I can never stand to see people say "too easy" when it comes to HoE. Like I said in my last post, if it honestly is "too easy" its because you're so good at KF and so is your group of friends. Proper strategy and people that know their roles make HoE survivable. It is by no means easy regardless, as you are still at the mercy of what decides to spawn at that current time. I've experienced numerous unlucky failures on the late waves because the game put its troll face on and spawns 2 fleshpounds, escorted by a squad of sirens a scrake and a husk. Teamwork works both ways. Both for you and for the specimen.

Originally Posted by Left 4 Dinner

Now, this could be passed as a mutator, since level 7 is currently not released. Although, I don't know how to create mutators, so Im just letting this hang here.

Perhaps look into learning how to script | mod for the unreal engine. The only way content gets created is by people having the desire and the know how to make it. Sitting around suggesting stuff is great and all, but judging by TWI's track record, it would either take too long or not be possible at all to do what you've proposed in this thread. I'm not saying anything you suggested is straight up a bad idea, its just a little asinine for the time and conditions of the game right now.

[CandleJack]

Originally Posted by Arblarg

I really can't believe people talk about having an even higher difficulty when despite the above, ~30% of KF owners haven't even killed 100 specimen.


Tripwires time could be much better spent with other things than actually giving specimen brains. HoE is plenty hard, if you say its too easy its because you've peaked out on KF skill, or you and your friends are a well oiled machine. There are plenty of mutators out there to already increase difficulty if you really insist on making things harder. If anything goes wrong in a hole up situation, things can go to hell in a handbasket in just seconds on HoE.

KF doesn't need to have another top difficulty, its fine just the way it is.

New Specimen: Tank Scrake. A larger and more intimidating version of the Scrake. It carries an enlarged chainsaw and rages at 5% hp, as well as having more hp total.

Nutgrabber: The horrific abomination of a Fleshpound and Clot having gay sex and a baby coming out of it. It has all the strengths of a clot and fleshpound.

Banshee: A Stalker and Siren put together. Screams while invisible.

Goreallyfast. Self-explanatory.

Bloat Mother: More overall hp than a regular Bloat, if it vomits at you and misses, it spawns 2 Baby Fleshpounds.

Custom mods increase difficulty so much.