Idea for "ZOOM" How to makes the Veterans happy

[_Dariuszek_]

So I bought RO1 just to see the difference between RO1 and RO2.
And I can not agree with the Veterans, zoom is a great feature!
Aim for the pixel is simply not cool but...

But "ZOOM" in its present form is bad, because is so easy to run & stop and kill enemy from 200 metters in a heartbeat.

Aim from close is also poor because of "ZOOM" FOV changes the target is too close.
This is why so many of you reported that you could not kill enemy from close.


THE IDEA

When you will use iron sight "ZOOM" will not be activated which will be like in RO1.
When you use mouse wheel you will activate "zoom"
When you stop using iron sigh mouse wheel will returns to its previous settings for example, you can change weapons.
Zoom will increase few seconds, such a solution is for simulate long range targeting.
More you are tired aim time is longer.

Such a solution should slow down the game, and make game more realistic.
I hope I wrote it clearly enough!

Please discuss!

[Andrew Blake]

So if I got you right. You want to remove auto zooming in, and replace it with scrolling zoom with the mouse? While starting with no zoom.

That would indeed make combat slower, long range harder. But scrolling would be abit clunky for combat, imo. And in the first place they added zoom to simulate that objects are not as small as they should be in games vs IRL.

[_Dariuszek_]

I understand idea of the zoom, but right now not everyone is happy so I try to find a solution.

Originally Posted by Andrew Blake

So if I got you right. You want to remove auto zooming in, and replace it with scrolling zoom with the mouse? While starting with no zoom.

Yes

This may not be the mouse wheel this can be any other button on the keyboard.
Also a player can not adjust the zoom.
"zoom" stops when it reaches a maximum.

Speed of "zoom" will depend on how much we are tired.
After a long run you are tired so you should focus more before you shot.
Another plus of this solution we do not need a stronger "weapon sway"
Because the time to achieve full "zoom" will be long enough.

Originally Posted by Andrew Blake

That would indeed make combat slower, long range harder. But scrolling would be abit clunky for combat, imo. And in the first place they added zoom to simulate that objects are not as small as they should be in games vs IRL.

Maybe because my idea someone will finds a better solution.
Even if now is easier to see targets from 200+ metters to be honest is too easy to shot them down.
To hit the target from that distance in real life you have to aim longer.
Especially when you're tired.

Summing up my idea.

1. This solution will slow down the game.
2. You can still hit distant targets.
3. You don't need stronger "weapon sway" becouse of "zoom" focus time.
4. Close-up shooting will be easier becouse "zoom" will be turned off.

[Andrew Blake]

There are various ways of "fixing" the combat, as currently its too easy to hit far away targets.

Zet have many good ideas, but I disagree with the zoom. I feel that we should have a big combination of small changes to achive the gameplay we wish, Not much drastic big ones.

I want to comment more here now, but I don't have the time right now...

[Proud_God]

I don't like how you propose to use zoom as a balance / game factor (slower zoom when tired). This will give attackers even more disadvantage. Zooming should be swift and natural, and be allowed while moving (as Zets said).

[MeFirst]

My idea on how to make the "veterans" happy.

Remove magic zoom, keep the currently standard zoon you already have when going to ironsights.

[_Dariuszek_]

Originally Posted by Proud_God

I don't like how you propose to use zoom as a balance / game factor (slower zoom when tired). This will give attackers even more disadvantage.

You have right, "zoom" focus time should be the same for all players.

[Vyllis]

Zoom will increase few seconds, such a solution is for simulate long range targeting.
More you are tired aim time is longer.

I like this. No instant 175m headshot; good enough for me.

[MarioBava]

Originally Posted by _Dariuszek_

You have right, "zoom" focus time should be the same for all players.

Especially considering the principle behind the zoom. It's not a superhuman ability, it is simply a remedy for the visual handicap that exists in the game's normal fov squeezed onto a computer screen. To handicap the remedy for a handicap based on things like fatique makes no sense.

[Zetsumei]

The game is mainly too fast in close quarter combat.

As due to the zoom long range if anything feels more like playing on a server with only snipers on it. On long range to spot enemies you are required to zoom, while once spotted an enemy is very easy to kill. People mostly seem to go for potshots on long range rather than attacking.

At long ranges it is much more difficult to detect people, there is a huge amount of fog, post processing effects, and blurring in of characters in the background. Which generally forces you to zoom most of the time to even notice enemies at the 200m mark. While in RO while enemies were small you could perfectly see them up to around 300 meters.

In regard to the people disliking zoom its primarily to stop the game acting as if its a sniper game, its not that people want to make that part even worse. What people generally want is to make the wide fov actually useful for detecting enemies. As that is what you would use your full 180 degree view for in real life.

People are sensitive to control input, forcing people to use something like a scrollwheel is not desired. If anything give people the options to automatically zoom when going into iron sight, not zoom when in iron sight and zoom when pressing a button. Give people options in that regard do not take it away. Its annoying enough already that we have a lot of multi function buttons that cannot easily be separated.

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Things in my opinion that generally work to make the zoom better.

- Reduce the max zoom, the max zoom in the game is in the amount of 2.2x, this means that when zoomed in enemies take up roughly 5 times the amount of pixels as the un zoomed state. This makes people 5 times easier to spot in the zoomed mode. Essentially forcing you to zoom in to be able to spot enemies that are lurking when zoomed. Reducing the max zoom to something like 1.5-1.8x makes it only 2-3x easier to spot enemies when zoomed. If the difference between the zoomed and non zoomed fov becomes smaller, it will become possible for the regular engagement ranges of <200 meters to actually spot enemies with your wide fov. DH and KF both have quite some zoom, yet its far less problematic than it is in HOS.

- Allow people to zoom on the move. In reality your eyes don't zoom and things look of equal size even when running. Why above all the big realistic disadvantages that exist in reality when moving around, add another big disadvantage that doesn't exist in reality. The zoom as implemented in ArmA feels a lot better and natural than how RO does it. Especially since in RO, the sprint button is used to zoom.

- Increase the visibility in maps, the more fog etc there is the harder people are to detect. The harder people are to detect the more you need to zoom in to actually spot people and thus rendering the wide fov useless. Make it possible to detect people in the wide fov and then zoom to not have to pixelhunt. Rather than using zoom as a form of scope or binoculars to look around the battlefield.

- Change the head bob to only have translational movement rather than angular rotation. Generally your balance organ is able to balance any headbob quite well and rotate your eyes to counteract the effects (so the position of the eyes change but not so much where the eyes are aimed at). Especially in the far distance head bob should not have a great effect on your ability to see things, making vection the key component that makes it more difficult to see.
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To slow down game play especially in cqc, rather make the transition to iron sights slower or add a small amount of time for lining up the sights perfectly. Increase the sway slightly so people might miss and warn their opponent inducing firefights, and requiring more time in making the perfect shot. Make stamina and health, suppression affect your marksmanship.

Gameplay is more fun when both you and your opponent know where both of you are, but it simply being more difficult to pop each other. That's when you can get firefights happening at long range. And if you actually see enemies and have difficulty hitting him some people might actually end up using suppression fire.

Your eyes have the fastest muscles in your body, and can rotate with a speed of 1000 degrees per second. Putting penalties on your vision is generally an odd thing to do.

[Mekhazzio]

Originally Posted by Zetsumei

I think that the ironsights starting at the center automatically should be removed. Even though Initially I was one of the persons that preferred it that way. (purely as it somewhat allows me to evade the free aim).

Next to that if you change stance, like go from crouch to standing the gun should change within the free aim circle as well.

These are such obvious parts of a freeaim system that I was honestly surprised that they weren't already in the game on release. It somewhat defeats the point of even adding freeaim in the first place, when the same sort of whack-a-mole tricks of a fixed aimpoint are still possible.

[Zetsumei]

In roost enemies sticked out like a sore thumb making it possible to see and hit at long ranges. Due to higher visibility i could kill pretty much further in fallen fighters in rooost than hos. Heck i got the rooost achievent for killing someone woth a bolt at 400 meters.

Fog bloom depth of field etc all make it much harder to see enemies in hos. Making my effective range with the wide non zoomed fov much less than it was in roost. My regular easy to hit range in roost was about 200 meters not fictional meters but sdk meters.

My range in hos with the added zoom is not that much more.

My issue with zoom is that the difference in ability to spot enemies at average engagement ranges zoomed vs non zoomed is so big that the wide fov is effectively useless at range. Combined with the inability to zoom at the move makes the gameplay the same as in sniper only servers for other games. Since you can zoom while runni.g its not that bad in arma. And since DH got a smaller difference between zoom and no zoom together with high visibility means that it is not that bad there either.

[Westernesse]

Zoom doesn't really bother me, mouse wheel scrolling is an interesting idea, but it does seem its a computer display technology issue.

Originally Posted by Zetsumei

In roost enemies sticked out like a sore thumb making it possible to see and hit at long ranges. Due to higher visibility i could kill pretty much further in fallen fighters in rooost than hos. Heck i got the rooost achievent for killing someone woth a bolt at 200 meters.

For fallen fighters whether MG, Anti-Tank, Bolt, Semi-auto rifle or marksmen my avg kill distance is about 200m-225m (sometimes down to 180 if I can't kill them on the first few hits). 230m or so is basically end to end of the square so you can't really get much more distance than that. The exception is yesterday, I was playing marksman and allies had D most of the match and I was getting a lot of 250m kills sometimes 2-3 in 2-3 rapid fire bullets. Shooting NW of D far corner to far North/NE of E as they ran a crossed the road between their spawn point and the E capture point. It's definitely hard to spot at that range though, I was pretty much shooting at moving shadows inside the large building shadow.

[Zetsumei]

I meant to type that i got an achievement in roost with a bolt at 400 meters excellent marksman gold. Got that on arad.

[MarioBava]

Originally Posted by Zetsumei

In roost enemies sticked out like a sore thumb making it possible to see and hit at long ranges. Due to higher visibility i could kill pretty much further in fallen fighters in rooost than hos. Heck i got the rooost achievent for killing someone woth a bolt at 400 meters.

Fog bloom depth of field etc all make it much harder to see enemies in hos. Making my effective range with the wide non zoomed fov much less than it was in roost. My regular easy to hit range in roost was about 200 meters not fictional meters but sdk meters.

I know you still have a beef with the zoom feature, but it might help you to try this:
http://cohngames.blogspot.com/2012/0...chestra-2.html

Helps with color and clarity a lot, you might find it easier to spot enemies.

[Mekhazzio]

You get that result because the depth of field effect has several other post-processing effects baked into it. The contrast adjusting part of that has a dramatic impact on light levels, so if you turn it off, you will find that the dark areas of a map are very dark. I was quite disappointed, because I hate the DOF blur in general, but with it off, German uniforms tend to just vanish in anything less than open sunlight.

Originally Posted by Zetsumei

My issue with zoom is that the difference in ability to spot enemies at average engagement ranges zoomed vs non zoomed is so big that the wide fov is effectively useless at range.

Er, that's the entire point of the zoom, to increase detail at range, because even with the 75 degree FOV, there is not nearly enough display resolution to show things accurately. If there wasn't a dramatic difference, it wouldn't be doing its job.

There's unquestionably a case to be made that, for a realistic implementation, like a flight sim, the unzoomed view should have some sort of artificial indicator display assist, like a colored aura on enemies, to more accurately represent vision capability, but I suspect the community backlash on that would be intense and unending. You see how much the zoom alone gets already, even though it's a fairly mild implementation of it. Or on the flip side, maybe there shouldn't be, to help compensate for the huge difference in terrain detail between real life and the limitations of the game.

That said, it may just be my medium-level graphics settings, but I do get something of an effect of that. The lower level of detail of ranged objects reduces the pixel noise enough that it's sometimes easier to spot someone that way than in the zoomed view.

[Zetsumei]

RO1 didnt have special tricks radars and what not but you could easily see enemies up to around 250 meters. Making things easier to see could already be attained by changing the fog characteristics based on being in wide fov or zoomed fov. Give wide fov less fog and it helps already a great deal. (type show fog in the console of a singleplayer game).

The idea of zoom is to fill in on the detail your eyes have, but that detail is there always even when running or whatever. Currently it works exactly as binoculars or a sniper scope in other games. In ArmA it helps a great deal that you can zoom while running. In KF and DH the zoom is not as heavy as the max zoom in RO together with ease to see enemies in regular engagement ranges.

The issue with a big difference between the zoomed in and non zoomed view is, that you have both modes so one mode can give you realistic size, and the other a realistic field of view.

But what use is a realistic field of view if you cannot spot enemies with it. All you can do is just focus on stopping so you can use your zoom and like you have horse blinders on and scan the horizon. This results in gameplay that feels like a sniper only server, and realistic or not its definitely my idea of fun.

The amount of zoom needed differs from person to person, as what is needed depends on both display size and distance to your screen. The zoom in RO is estimated at an average distance on a 19-20" monitor. Have a bigger or smaller monitor and the zoom will already be off to what it should be.

[luciferintears]

this does not make me happy, in fact it makes me weep inside...

[MacX]

I'd also prefer to get rid of the Shift Key Zoom. The simple iron sight zoom is good enough. I think this zoom feature has taken much of the machine gunner's power. I wouldn't want to play this class as I'm constantly getting killed after firing some shots. In RO1 I loved the machine gunners.

Hopefully some mods will take out the zooming so we can see which one works better.

[Zetsumei]

Originally Posted by MacX

I'd also prefer to get rid of the Shift Key Zoom. The simple iron sight zoom is good enough. I think this zoom feature has taken much of the machine gunner's power. I wouldn't want to play this class as I'm constantly getting killed after firing some shots. In RO1 I loved the machine gunners.

Hopefully some mods will take out the zooming so we can see which one works better.

I think the shift zoom is too much but i would like to keep the option to not zoom untill i press a button.