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Dont forget us..

ungoliaNt

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 25, 2005
4
0
First of all: I know that nothing I can say will change the fact that RO:O is going to be released through Steam.

Yesterday I knew about Tripwire's desition of releasing RO:O through Valve's Steam.. I've been a Linux user for 3 years now, and I got really dissappointed with that..
I had been playing RO for a long time, and I had always been very proud of it for it Linux support, and for it's incredible respectfull comunity.. I simply loved it.
Linux/mac users feel now that they are not important anymore from tripwire, since Steam will give them a lot of players, and they will not need to take into account such a low percentage as we are.

I think that running steam with wine/cedega is NOT an option for linux RO players, oppossed to what people may think.
Anyway, I've mounted some servers for other Steam games, and I know there's a client for linux (console) for updating the servers and fetching the games.. Maybe you could do something with this so we can use it as Steam Client (you should make linux binaries too.. and I guess that's the problem).

PD: I want to say that i'm happy that at least the hard work you've done for such a long time will be rewarded, you really diserve it.

PD2: Sorry for my bad english, it's not my native language :p.
 
It's not up to them whether Steam has a Linux client.

What you must understand is that the Devs have been working on RO for over 2 years without getting ANY money for it.
The Devs need money if they want to survive, and the only way to make money really is to sell something, ie: RO:O.
The best way for them, as a small studio, to be able to sell a product, keep control of the product, and have freedom to do what they want, is to release their game over Steam, and that's pretty much a fact. Nothing else will give them the freedom that the COMMUNITY wants, and has had for the last 2 years in terms of bugging the devs to fix and add things to RO.
Steam also gives maximum availability of the game to people from all over (believe it or not). Since Tripwire is a brand new studio, any game published on CD's or anything would have a hard time getting sold in all the countries RO is played in (the US would obviously get it, but what about smaller places like Chile, or some European countries? Would those people still be able to get a copy of RO retail if it was sold in a box?)

If you think about it from the devs point of view, which you must if you want RO to keep existing, they need to use Steam, and in using Steam, they are forced (by Valve) to forgo Linux and Mac support. This is probably not something they chose to do lightly, and it's not their fault it's the way things are. I expect Linux and Mac users are important, and they're going to have a server version for Linux, but I think making money and keeping control of Ro are more important to them than Linux users (and rightly so).
Plus you can always get a copy of Windows :p Be glad you're not Mac users ;)
 
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*Sigh*

Lonyo said:
What you must understand is that the Devs have been working on RO for over 2 years without getting ANY money for it.
[...]

ungoliaNt said:
PD: I want to say that i'm happy that at least the hard work you've done for such a long time will be rewarded, you really diserve it.

Lonyo...i think it IS understood, dont u think so?

greetz,
gitano
 
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What you must understand is that the Devs have been working on RO for over 2 years without getting ANY money for it.
As gitano said, if you read PD at the end of my post, I really understand it.

The best way for them, as a small studio, to be able to sell a product, keep control of the product, and have freedom to do what they want, is to release their game over Steam, and that's pretty much a fact. Nothing else will give them the freedom that the COMMUNITY wants, and has had for the last 2 years in terms of bugging the devs to fix and add things to RO.
Steam also gives maximum availability of the game to people from all over (believe it or not). Since Tripwire is a brand new studio, any game published on CD's or anything would have a hard time getting sold in all the countries RO is played in (the US would obviously get it, but what about smaller places like Chile, or some European countries? Would those people still be able to get a copy of RO retail if it was sold in a box?)
I think the idea behind Steam is ok, the distribution through internet instead of by the oldest CD method is just the future of gaming.. but that doesnt mean I have to like Steam. I don't like how Steam works, I don't like they don't support other systems, I don't like how they are getting the control of a new market, without any alternatives... and of course, I don't like they are close-source.
Plus you can always get a copy of Windows :p Be glad you're not Mac users
Maybe i'm only an idealist, but I won't play it if I have to install windows on my computer...

Anyway, I just wanted to say that there's a Steam Client for Linux, used to fetch files for steam servers.. and that it could theorically be used to deliver content for linux games.. and since Unreal Engine has full linux support, I guess it wouldnt be really difficult to do this. Could any dev answer this question?
 
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I wouldn't be surprised if the devs are trying, but don't want to commit in case it can't be done.

Afterall, even though Steam distributes servers, doesn't mean it can handle client authentication and server browsing. If Vavle doesn't implement these, then Tripwire can't distribute a Client to Linux.


I was also under the impression that Tripwire only won a PC license, but nobody's mentioned this.
 
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They don't need to use Steam to distribute the Linux client. A game called Darwinia has Windows and Linux version (I recommend everyone to check that game, especially if you started to play games around 80's or early 90's. :) The screenshots may look little bizzare, but play the demo to see it in action. Though, the demo isn't available right now: Valve doesn't allow them to distribute it for now. Should be available in month or so.). They have 3 means to distribute it: You can download Windows version from Steam (from mid-December on) or buy a boxed version from their store which includes both Windows and Linux version and it also allows you to download the Linux version right away. Unless Valve is restricting Tripwire more than they do Introversion (devs of Darwinia), there's no reason why Tripwire couldn't do something similar. One possibility is also that Linux users should download RO:O from Steam and then download some package which includes Linux executables. That may not be such a good way though as some may have difficulties running Steam on Linux and some might simply refuse to do so.

I also join the group of Linux users who won't be buying RO:O if there won't be Linux client of it. I do have a legal copy of WinXP, I even have it installed it on this computer. But I don't use it. Why? Why should I. I can do everything I want to do in Linux, and I can do them without the headaches that Windows tends to cause. :p And also if there is 2 games, Game1 that has Windows and Linux clients and Game2 that has only Windows client. Why should I play the Game2 which requires me to dualboot to OS that I hate the most (Windows'es in general) when I could just play Game1 on Linux and be happy about it? There's no reason, and that's why I won't play such games which is also one of the reason why I don't use Windows.

Anyways. I really hope that Tripwire manages to come up with Linux client for RO:O some how cause I like the game and there's very high change that I will buy it if there's Linux client of it. But if they don't/can't release Linux client, then there's quite small change that I will buy it (it would need to work "well enough" on Linux with Wine).

It would, by the way, be nice if the devs could tell some information about the Linux client (Is there such thing already? Did you/do you need to port RO:O for Linux/Mac?), the means they are planning to distribute it and will Linux and Mac version be available at the same time with Windows version and so on.:)
 
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Well...

Hyperion2010 said:
What is up with people thinking that steam doesnt work on linux, if you use linux you should be knowledgeable (and care) enough to get it to work...

the question should be: "what is up with people always trying to have the last word in topics they dont seem to understand..."

Or maybe, "dont WANT to understand" would fit it better. If You would've had at least a quick overread in this topic

http://www.redorchestragame.com/forum/showthread.php?t=86,

You might have an idea about the problems regarding Steam and Linux.
Well, i think that link above could be a possible answer to your question.

greetz,
gitano
 
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The problem appears to be linked more to the fact that Linux has problems running D3D graphics engines, seeing as people have an easier time with HL1 than with HL2. Therefore the problem, as stated in the other thread is NOT steam, and NOT valve. Developers using steam have to get their executalbes running THROUGH steam to work on linux, or the users using linux have to figure it out. Steam itself works just fine on linux, and HL1 based games running through steam works just fine too. D3D is the problem. Not steam.
 
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Hyperion2010 said:
The problem appears to be linked more to the fact that Linux has problems running D3D graphics engines, seeing as people have an easier time with HL1 than with HL2. Therefore the problem, as stated in the other thread is NOT steam, and NOT valve. Developers using steam have to get their executalbes running THROUGH steam to work on linux, or the users using linux have to figure it out. Steam itself works just fine on linux, and HL1 based games running through steam works just fine too. D3D is the problem. Not steam.

Hrm, not sure if it is understood, yet. The whole question here is about that we're hoping to get a NATIVE, OpenGL-based Unix client like we have atm and which runs like a charme.
Yes, you're right, the whole thing with running a windows D3D-client + steam + steams backgound processes through a fake environment like cedega is indeed a problem....and i think noone of us will seriously consider such a solution.

Hey, how would u feel if u have driven a mercedes-benz for over one year and now are being forced to drive a VW-Golf? I'd guess, not so happy.

No, the problem we are talking about all the time is indeed the question, how a developer like Tripwire could manage to run a native Unix client through a protocol like Steam has. I dont know how this protocol works, 'coz its totally closed. You dont know, noone actually knows, only the guys from Tripwire will most obviously know a bit about it, as much as the policies at Valve will allow them to take a closer look into it.
At least, thats the only hope i still have, that there might be some possibilities regarding authentications/ startup of a native Unix client.
The whole problem could be avoided, if Valve would finally decide to write a simple authentication/ DL/ startup client for Unix, but i hardly doubt that this will happen in the near future.
Which is kinda hard to understand, if u look at the fast growing Unix market, and an also growing playerbase which runs Unix and will most likely not even consider to change their operating system just to run a game. As stated before in this forum, the future is multi-platform and choice, theres no way around it.

Anyway...

after almost a week now, i'm getting really sick of speculating about these issues.

Hyperion2010, my first reply above wasnt meant personlly in any way, i think the point most critical users here have is a valid one and should be clear now. No need to raise the flames again.

Which leads me to another issue...which i think could have discouraged lotsa critical RO-lovers here. Posts by some users here in a manner like "deal with it or leave", which most obviously means nothing less than "shut up or f*ck u", in replies to some very well considered critical posts are not really necessary.
Keep in mind, that quite a lotsa Linux users as well have contributed much to the gaming-community in the past and now will most likely not be able to play their favorite game anymore. Setting up servers, websites, organizing tournaments etc. to keep the whole thing alive is quite some work, too.
Theres absolutely NO REASON to point out fingers like "tehee, teh bl00dy linux sux0rs why d0nt they use wind0ze", now. Especially this thread was more a kinda "goodbye, dont forget us" one, so plz, no flame-hijacking here.

I guess noone of the steam-critics really doubts that actual steam versions run quite fine on windows-machines. Also, almost nobody doubted that the Steam as a way of distributing Software is basically a good idea.

And i'll only say it once again:

NOONE of the Steam critics was blaming TRIPWIRE for their choice. Actually, almost EVERYBODY of the critics was congratulating Tripwire, for they've chosen the most easiest way of distributing their baby and for they will finally earn the money and honor they really deserve.

Well, thats what I really needed to say.

Plz, think over twice, before u reply.

greetz,
gitano
 
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Ok, I got ya. I respect people who use linux, they are willing to invest more time in having control of their system than I am willing to. I think we all agree that it would be nice if TW was to distro unix/linux files, however I think that that they would still have to (and imo should) use steam to do this.

Since steam can work on linux the task falls either to TW or to the linux users. If you cant wait and you use linux and you want to invest the time to get RO to work without TW's support the more power to you. In the long run they may be able to give full support the ther linux based clients, however I think that it is more important for TW to get ROO out first and then work to support their linux based clients. As a result I feel that only practical short term alternative is for those who use linux to put their heads together and see what they can do.
 
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I think we need to be patient here. The devs kind of sprung the RO:Ostfront on us. I don't think too many people not in the know had any incling that there would be an RO retail game in January. I was expecting 2007 myself (on UE3).

The Devs have been very supporting of Linux until now. There's no way that they don't want to put out a Linux client. The problem is can they in January?

I think we can agree that the devs must have put in a lot of hard work just into RO:Ostfront (to say nothing of RO 3.3). It may take them a bit to get to a Linux version. And you have to be realistic, most gamers are on Windows, so if they can only do either Windows first, or Windows/Linux 6 months further, it seems like the most realistic way would be to put out Windows first. The infrastructure is there, and so is a larger ready player base.

And at this point, I'm sure Tripwire must have some corporate debts since they financed this themselves. And I'm sure office space at the least must cost a bundle in rent. Somebody's been paying for this.
 
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Mormegil said:
I think we need to be patient here. The devs kind of sprung the RO:Ostfront on us. I don't think too many people not in the know had any incling that there would be an RO retail game in January. I was expecting 2007 myself (on UE3).

The Devs have been very supporting of Linux until now. There's no way that they don't want to put out a Linux client. The problem is can they in January?

I think we can agree that the devs must have put in a lot of hard work just into RO:Ostfront (to say nothing of RO 3.3). It may take them a bit to get to a Linux version. And you have to be realistic, most gamers are on Windows, so if they can only do either Windows first, or Windows/Linux 6 months further, it seems like the most realistic way would be to put out Windows first. The infrastructure is there, and so is a larger ready player base.

And at this point, I'm sure Tripwire must have some corporate debts since they financed this themselves. And I'm sure office space at the least must cost a bundle in rent. Somebody's been paying for this.

I agree with you and hope that you're right and we'll get Linux client as well in near future. Good thing with UT is that it can run on OpenGL for Windows as well, so developers are not tied to DirectX on Windows platform either.

Unfortunate fact is that us Linux/ BSD users are minority at the moment so it's easy to ignore us, but those companies who actively support Linux (nVidia anyone?) do reap the benefits already and in future are in a lot stronger position when Microsoft's virtual monopoly is broken. And it will be, Firefox and OpenOfficeOrg are making good headway getting people used to Open Source software and already bugged Vista will bring more to the other side.

We can only wait, hope and see what comes of it.
 
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Some of us can wait. But some of us can be active.

Not only will I be present in the RO community, doing my part to push for and promote native support, but I plan to start knocking on Valve's door, too. The future is online distribution, as well as multi-platform gaming. And I plan to do all I can to promote and facilitate this. RO has been one of the leading mods/games that has not only been progressive, innovative, and nearly professional, but has supported non-WinNT clients, too (if somewhat reluctantly at first). I plan to help keep and build this reputation as much as I can. And I encourage not only *nix and OS X users, but Windows users to do the same.

As said above, Windows users have not been the only people contributing to RO: we are an active part in the community. Clans, ladders, servers, and more. I refuse to fall back into the shadows of "linux users are a minority" and keep my mouth shut waiting for Valve to recognize me. Not only will the community benefit, but so will TWI and Valve. And I plan to be an integral part of that change.

There is no reason why TWI can't release a native cross-platform client, unless they modify the engine to extreme levels. In fact, Yoshiro confirmed exactly this in IRC. What they need is support from their distributor, Valve/Steam.

The problem is not "Linux users are too lazy and can't figure out how to get Steam to run on their computer." Since Steam is closed-source, we have no way to make it work, aside from running emulation. Nor is D3D the problem. Steam can be run without D3D, and since Valve is looking for Steam to distribute many non-Sierra/Valve games/mods (both indie and pro), they should obviously be looking at a cross-platform client. If Valve opened up Steam, or at least released specs for the protocol, I myself would be the first to help with development. Valve has total control over Steam and its code/protocol/nativity, and we can't do a damn thing about it.
 
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