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WARPAC vs. NATO-thread

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#81
Troels said:
Iz dat sum racism against da chi-yu-nese?
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No, you can check on the average sizes of people in different parts of the world if you want. Asians tend to be shorter... Not saying they all are, but they TEND to be.

@RSS: I guess history is politically biased, since the USSR folded more than 15 years ago, the Warsaw Pact went with it. How's it beside the point? Instead of a nuclear or conventional war, it was simply fought another way, a highly unconventional way. The WP lost (thankfully) and we won. Case closed.
 
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#82
{YBBS}Sage said:
@RSS: I guess history is politically biased, since the USSR folded more than 15 years ago, the Warsaw Pact went with it. How's it beside the point? Instead of a nuclear or conventional war, it was simply fought another way, a highly unconventional way. The WP lost (thankfully) and we won. Case closed.
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USSR and WARPAC were politically disseminated from inside. It has nothing to do with warfare. This thread is about warfare between two parties. Now cease your off-topic provocation or I will start PMing you stories about rise of left ideas in Russia and east germans who disappointed in west and drove right back with their trusty Trabbis... :rolleyes:

Fu. Svedberg, you got a good point there. According the WP offensive doctrine, interdiction strike fighters and fighterbombers would attack NATO airfields early in the war and leave many, many almighty, godlike NATO planes unusable. Not to mention clusterbombs (RBK-series) which ruin airstrips and cruisemissiles, such as Oka.
 
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#84
Rss said:
BuddyLee, where did you get that? Have you ever been in USSR? Sources? Typical USSR citizen consumed MORE milk than typical US citizen. Ask any ex-soviet citizen. Not able to feed themselves? Where did you get this? From Red Alert? Rationing was introduced DURING and AFTER GPW and during perestroika.

Now stay on topic.
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I saw the food lines on the Evening News with Dan Rather, and World News Tonight with Peter Jennings. When the Soviet Premier came to the USA, he was so bewildered at the availability of any type of domestic consumer products at Supermarkets and Mega Stores a person could ever need, He thought it was some kinda trick, that people had set up all this stuff up to impress Him.

And this is on topic, how exactly do you think the implosion of the USSR, and the demise of the Warpac came about? How did they lose the Cold War? Why is Poland now a Member of NATO?
 
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#85
LOL you guys just can't play nice can you?
Reference Russian tank crews, yes they are preferred smaller due to the constraints of the tanks construction.
Reference WarPac kit, it was simple, rugged and performed reasonably well. A lot better than SOME people give it credit for.
Reference NATO kit, it was not all super advanced but fragile kit that needed to be kept in cotton wool.
The men were NOT equally trained nor yet did they have the same rationale in warfighting so any comparison on a man to man basis is meaningless.
The bit about East Germans driving back to Germany, oh that raised a chuckle. I was there in Germany when the wall came down and found out from my German friends how their East German, brothers came across to the west, collected their handouts, drove back to the East......then turned round and repeated the process.......Good luck to 'em. Serves the West Germans right for not policing the procedure better in the early days:)
It appears from a neutral perspective that each side here has 'problems' seeing things from the other side.
One final point, saying that the WP 'plan' called for a certain sequence of events, well its a proven fact that no plan survives first contact with the enemy and I think that their plan would have gone the same way.
Anyway, as we're all friends now....we ARE all friends now aren't we? such discussions can take place just don't get quite so ahem, lively :D
 
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#86
BuddyLee said:
Shi-, USSR could barely keep their civilian populace fed in times of peace, how could they provide logistics for millions of troops? :p

The reason Russians fit in that tank, are they never got enough milk for their growing bones, so they turned into midgets while waiting in food lines. :p

BTW I am 6'1" 225lbs. I drank a gallon of milk a day growing up, even through the poor-assed Reagan Years.

And if you think Warpac would have won, you must not hold British, German, French, Italian Armies in very high regard. Add USA to the mix, and the Ruskie were going to be pwnzord. We all saw how well the Soviets fought insurgents in Afghanistan, now imagine they were western Europe, with all the ingredients for millions of IED's and forests the T-90 and all the other armor could not traverse.

puhleeze
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The growth of Americans , after war , has almost not increased .
The has increased only weight .:)

It not a joke. It is official statistics .:(
 
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#87
FatPartizan said:
The growth of Americans , after war , has almost not increased .
The has increased only weight .:)

It not a joke. It is official statistics .:(
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I blame delicious Hog-Fat... mmm hogfat.

I regard this as a Superman vs. MightyMouse thread, like the ones we used to have in school... and yes, we were all friends after. :)
 
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#89
BuddyLee said:
I saw the food lines on the Evening News with Dan Rather, and World News Tonight with Peter Jennings. When the Soviet Premier came to the USA, he was so bewildered at the availability of any type of domestic consumer products at Supermarkets and Mega Stores a person could ever need, He thought it was some kinda trick, that people had set up all this stuff up to impress Him.

And this is on topic, how exactly do you think the implosion of the USSR, and the demise of the Warpac came about? How did they lose the Cold War? Why is Poland now a Member of NATO?
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My estimation is that you've seen perestroika-era foodlines (1985-1991) when socialism was no more. And how many could afford all that great consumer crap? :rolleyes: It seems to be your impression that soviets ate grass and plywood in candlelight. While certainly that could've be the case in roughest war times/messed up economy in late 80s, soviets had quite nice standard of living. Everyone who was working could afford TV, vacation, good food, camera, car (through many years though) ect.

I'm posting any political crap on this thread, but I could PM you some reasons and background about above-mentioned incidents, if you want. It's not that black and white as you people see it. Now back to topic, please!
 
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#91
Exactly. Their better training, motivation and gear is exactly why the Warsaw Pact won the Cold War.... wait a minute, they lost!
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We "lost" not because of our soldiers' bad training, bad tanks, ****ty good for nothing AK-74 and yours all-mighty Abrams. In fact, WP never had any fightings with NATO. WP "lost" because of destructive actions caused by CIA etc, not because direct combat action.
For my fellow metric-system challenged readers, 175 cm = 5'9"... which is kinda on the short side, outside of south-east asia. I'm the shortest man in my family, and I'm taller than that. Hell my WIFE is taller than that.
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But this didn't stop USSR to find tankers to mount those thousands of T-72, right?. :)



Shi-, USSR could barely keep their civilian populace fed in times of peace, how could they provide logistics for millions of troops?
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OMG, I remember how I literally starved when i was young.. not. We had food, not as variable as you guys, but we were OK.
The reason Russians fit in that tank, are they never got enough milk for their growing bones, so they turned into midgets while waiting in food lines.
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Before I ask to stop nacist bull****, I will state, that, first of all, I'm the third from the end by the height in my university group. And I'm 1.865. Also, when I was young, I drank a lot of milk. A lot. And it was fresh from the cow, mind you - it was real milk, and not some "just add water" poison. And finally, I thank God that we had not as much food as you guys: at least we (i mean, our population) are not so.. well.. huge. :p
OK, and now, let's please talk about the topic and stop this off-top, ok?
And if you think Warpac would have won, you must not hold British, German, French, Italian Armies in very high regard. Add USA to the mix, and the Ruskie were going to be pwnzord. We all saw how well the Soviets fought insurgents in Afghanistan, now imagine they were western Europe, with all the ingredients for millions of IED's and forests the T-90 and all the other armor could not traverse.
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We all can see, how NATO guys are doing in Iraq, against ****ty, crappy weapons that actually work. And we all already have seen, how USSR steam-rolled over half of the Europe - they were facing Germans, Finns, Romanians, Hungarians; swedish, french, belgium [insert any other euro country here] volunteers. We all know how this ended. You can say all you want, but I will state only this - Russian infantry, Russian grunt can do miracles, even if he's armed with some old, crappy weapon (and I don't think that AK's, PK's, RPG's were bad).
 
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#92
FatPartizan said:
The growth of Americans , after war , has almost not increased .
The has increased only weight .:)

It not a joke. It is official statistics .:(
Click to expand...

fatbodytx3.jpg
 
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#94
Rss said:
My estimation is that you've seen perestroika-era foodlines (1985-1991) when socialism was no more. And how many could afford all that great consumer crap? :rolleyes: It seems to be your impression that soviets ate grass and plywood in candlelight. While certainly that could've be the case in roughest war times/messed up economy in late 80s, soviets had quite nice standard of living. Everyone who was working could afford TV, vacation, good food, camera, car (through many years though) ect.
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I live in Canada, and I can very clearly remember us sending emergency grain shipments to the Soviets in the early 1980's when they had grain shortages due to crop failures and wasteful mismanagement. Maybe the Communist authorities weren't telling you everything, like where your food was coming from... Also, the Russians enjoyed much of their relative prosperity at the expense of their less fortunate "satellite" countries.
 
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#95
Yes, I grew up during the 80's, this is the Era I'm speaking of. Standard of living in USSR seemed like that of a 3rd World Country. People were lucky to be issued shoes that fit. And it's leaders seemed like incoherent buffoons, like when Kruschev(spelling?) made a drunken ass out of himself on TV with Dick Nixon.

I drink Clover Brand Milk, no growth hormones. It is designer milk brought to you by hippies who care. It tastes extra sweet because the cows are fed clovers. Clovers(and bees) also make the best honey. That is why Irish dairy products are the best in the World. I can choose from literally 10 different kinds of milk. No powdered milk for me thanx. And this is the norm on the availabillity of all consumer products, so many choices.

Last I checked, the CIA was one of the weapons USA deploys to fight our enemies, so how can you separate them from the argument?

How could you possibly defend a government who gave special treatment to Party Members? That doesn't sound very "equal" to me. Sounds more hypocritical than anything. You should travel to the USA sometime, you might find that (especially in Ca.) it is one of the most friendly, open-minded places in the World. The Sky is truly the limit here, and you don't need a Party Pass to elevate your social standing.

Best Wishes form,
A Yankee Dog :)
 
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#96
thedonster said:
I live in Canada, and I can very clearly remember us sending emergency grain shipments to the Soviets in the early 1980's when they had grain shortages due to crop failures and wasteful mismanagement. Maybe the Communist authorities weren't telling you everything, like where your food was coming from... Also, the Russians enjoyed much of their relative prosperity at the expense of their less fortunate "satellite" countries.
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Yes, USSR imported grain not because they couldn't feed their citizens (USSR was biggest grain importer in the world), but because they didn't have enough grain to grow next harvest (they were supposed to exceed quota) and make fodder for cattle.

See this: http://www.usm.maine.edu/eco/joe/works/Soviet.html

At the expense of their satellites... That's a blatant lie. Most WP nations had BETTER standard of living than USSR. Soviets sacrificed A LOT for east european nations after GPW, even after it was plundered by Germany. In Afghanistan the Soviets provided military support and economic assistance, and got little in return except a sign on the map that says 'pro-Soviet'.

BuddyLee, do you have any hard evidence to back your claims or do you just like to bit*h?
 
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#97
Rss said:
In Afghanistan the Soviets provided military support and economic assistance, and got little in return except a sign on the map that says 'pro-Soviet'.
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Do you describe the invasion and subsequent war as "military support and economic assistance?" What a joke!
Would you also describe the American invasion and occupation of Iraq in these terms? I doubt it.
 
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#98
thedonster said:
Do you describe the invasion and subsequent war as "military support and economic assistance?" What a joke!
Would you also describe the American invasion and occupation of Iraq in these terms? I doubt it.
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QFT, at least I can admit USA is in Iraq partially for oil.

Isn't that what the Soviets were doing in Afghanistan too? Something about an oil pipeline... at least we don't use chemical weapons in Iraq, like the USSR used in Afghanistan.
 
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#99
Wow, you guys are clueless. Afghan goverment ASKED USSR to help out with fundamentalist mujahideen guerillas. You guys trained them and coupla years ago they bit your ass.

Chemical weapons? Proof? At least you supplied Saddam with those.

"According to Iraq's report to the UN, the know-how and material for developing chemical weapons were obtained from firms in such countries as: the United States, West Germany, the United Kingdom, France and the People's Republic of China."

See: http://foi.missouri.edu/terrorbkgd/uscorpsiniraq.html
 
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#100
USSR sure helped out the Afghan people all right. That actually made me laugh. :D

Saddam made Chem-Weapons out of common everyday chemicals that are legal to purchase anywhere. Shi- I could make one out of bleach I bought at a Yankee Supermarket. Can you get bleach in USSR?

Abetter question would be, where did Saddam get his delivery systems...ie missiles and arty to deliver Chem-Weapons? Could it have been USSR? :p
 
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