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Zoom is a good thing!

i agree. and larger maps make that rifle all it should be, a long range weapon and the smg better keep under cover when not trying to clear buildings!

I agree too. While SMG's would have their place on a map like Ogledow, especially if supported by some riflemen, they're usually the last weapons picked. Quite the reversal from the stock maps.
 
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It's a well known fact that if you zero an undamaged bolt action rifle to 200m and shoot it at something 200m away, you'll most likely hit. There's very little deviation when you toss some lead out of a rifled barrel at supersonic speeds.
In fact, chances are you'll even hit at such a range with an SMG.
It's amazing how RO1 seems to have killed all sense of distance for some folks.

Agree on the rifle, disagree completely on the SMG. Pistol bullets in all their underpowered, round-nosed glory, tumble relatively unpredictably beyond 100 yards. The longer barrel of SMGs and the higher-powered 7.62 x 25mm Tokarev round certainly help things, but it's hard to imagine obtaining consistent hits on a torso-sized target at 150 yards--the rounds just lose too much power over those distances to be reliably accurate.

Heck, you can see the 9mm Luger bullet itself in-flight through an 18x spotting scope when fired at a 100 yard target with a Glock 17. It's pretty cool visually, but not very good for accuracy.:p *cough* Shooting unsupported at 100 yards with a pistol--aligning the iron sights was so difficult that only two of ten shots even nicked the paper. Support was absolutely necessary to even land four of ten on paper. *cough*

As far as zoom goes, I personally think that it makes spotting enemies in relatively good concealment too easy, and makes hitting them easier by increasing the on-screen size of the target and 'increasing' mouse sensitivity.

I'm going to wait until sway is increased to see whether or not zoom needs changing. If aquiring and firing at those distant targets is made more difficult, perhaps zoom will not need to be decreased in order to reduce the currently high lethality of ranged combat. It IS true that RO2's zoom delivers the natural resolution of the human eye to the screen, and I respect that particular interpretation of realism. A target at 200 meters, however, is miniscule to the naked eye.

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I also disagree that large, open maps are what is required to have better, more tactical gameplay. Maps like Krasnyi Oktyabr, Stalingrad Kessel, and Bocklin *wince* in Ostfront were close-quarters slugfests, but often slow and methodical as your side sought to clear out that hallway and slowly push into the warehouse or garage. Every grenade was precious, I remember. Rifles were certainly useful to cover the open areas and pin down enemies at windows. Up close, the stopping power of hipfire and bayonets could be a force to be reckoned with.

Curbing the speed to aiming down sights, fixing the overly forgiving wound system, revising MG hipfire, renovating the squad system, and FIXING LOCKDOWN will lead to less rushing for objectives and more methodical play.

I look forward to and eagerly anticipate tension-filled firefights in Station, Grain Elevator, and Apartments, when every decision--whether or not to slice the pie, use a grenade, turn my back to a door--can mean the difference between life and death.
 
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The issue with removing zoom based on these reasons though, is that SMGs would become overwhelmingly effective.

In RO1, with fixed FOV, the only way rifles where anyway effective was because SMGs had extreme level of recoil that made it hard to hit things past 50-75 meters (especially the PPSH).

So you had:

SMGs - Good to about 60 meters
Rifles - Good to about 150-200 meters.

However in RO2, due to more realistically recoiling SMGs, SMGs are good to about 100-150 meters, which means the distances rifles actually beat SMGs is far smaller than in RO1.

If zoom is removed without changes to SMGs, then the game will become even more unrealistic because the vast majority of maps will have no distances where rifles beat SMGs, and without zoom it is hard to even see the distances at which rifles would be more effective.

Roost SMG's didn't only have a big amount of recoil in Roost they were simply inaccurate as well (you could see that by simply disabling the recoil in single player). But overall I didn't like the inaccuracy of the smgs I preferred it in the mod where smgs where very effective at most ranges. But regardless of that even in HOS with zoom currently SMGs are effective at pretty much all ranges, if you can see a target you can pretty much kill it as the round remains very predictable. If anything my issue with free aim in ironsights is that it takes longer to aim correctly with a rifle but with an smg with low recoil you can just hold the trigger and move over an target.

Never the less I'm not saying the zoom should go, but there are definitive negative effects together with zoom. And there should be aims in my opinion to try and lessen those effects. For instance making zoom always accessible like in the ArmA series, and increasing the sway for all weapons slightly. Requiring more activity (and time) from the player to hit accurately, with a bit more difficulty which increases the chance for missing (and makes it that even with smgs for accurate long range fire you would try more to fire individual shots).

And beside that my main issue is the inconsistency in gameplay. Long range is very cautious and careful play, short range is very run and gun. Which is why I think the gameplay in both close range and long range should be closer together. Taking slightly longer to raise sights accurately would help slow down the close range combat for instance, together with making stamina effect the aim. Together for long range to make it easier to obtain an idea of the surroundings like for instance lowering the headbob slightly when running and allowing people to zoom in.

As I said there are enough arguments for and against zoom, I personally just prefer no zoom. But this doesn't mean that the gameplay cannot be made good when using zoom. Individual systems don't really make the gameplay its how all those systems work together. And thats where I think TWI should make changes and is the only place where TWI will possibly make changes.

I just want to share my opinion and discuss things, I don't think anyone should expect any changes.
 
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Ummm..... Spindle? Do you have any experience with rifles IRL? They're very accurate and unless it's really howling, wind and gravity have little effect on a rifle bullet at the short ranges (100-200m) we're shooting in game. Maybe an inch or so is all. Rifles do consistently hit what they are aimed at. Boresighting with lasers is just get the gun approximately on target, you have to shoot it to dial it in.

The guns in game are fine, what is not, is that there are very little influences on the shooter to affect aim. Like fear, breathing, inertia etc. We the gamer shouldn't be able to aim with laser like precision at any time we choose. Prone or with the weapon rested maybe, but not while standing, crouched or after sprinting, even with a magic "hold your breath button".

It's not that kind of laser. But the one they use in scientific experiments. I don't mean the bullet misses the target by a meter or something, but every shot in the game hits its target without any deviation. And I agree with you about the fear etc..
 
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It's not that kind of laser. But the one they use in scientific experiments. I don't mean the bullet misses the target by a meter or something, but every shot in the game hits its target without any deviation.
Which is exactly how it should be at those ranges!
Get that into your head, guns hit what you point them at. They're more accurate in real life than commonly portrayed in games and movies.
 
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It's not that kind of laser. But the one they use in scientific experiments. I don't mean the bullet misses the target by a meter or something, but every shot in the game hits its target without any deviation. And I agree with you about the fear etc..

Even if the laser was perfectly parallel to the bore-line, of course you would expect deviation. Light travels at 300,000 km/s, and won't drop nearly as much as a chunk of lead.

The point is, once the rifle is dialed in (calibrated), it should be pretty consistent.

SMGs and pistols on the other hand should get some randomness passed 100 meters or so, or whenever they transition to subsonic speed, due to turbulence. I don't know if that's modeled in yet.
 
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Zoom is well and good, it's holding your breath that is the issue. I noticed the other day that there is a significant amount of sway added to aiming after you sprint as far as you can...until you hit that shift key. Then, it's back to perfect, pinpoint control for long enough to take down whatever you need, effectively eliminating the sway from sprinting.
 
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I like zoom.
It also stops players who think long range firing on the move should be accurate.
In RL you do need to stop and aim at anything but the shortest ranges. FACT.
Zoom makes you do this.

At short ranges the standard sights do fine in RO2. Which is also realistic.

Of course firing from the hip with a rifle (bolt) gives predictable results. Being very inaccurate at almost any range.
Again no problem.
 
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It's not that kind of laser. But the one they use in scientific experiments. I don't mean the bullet misses the target by a meter or something, but every shot in the game hits its target without any deviation. And I agree with you about the fear etc..
it is that kind of laser. the one on my ak and the one they use for experimnts are the same.

Which is exactly how it should be at those ranges!
Get that into your head, guns hit what you point them at. They're more accurate in real life than commonly portrayed in games and movies.
yup!
 
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Which is exactly how it should be at those ranges!
Get that into your head, guns hit what you point them at. They're more accurate in real life than commonly portrayed in games and movies.

No it doesn't. There should be some deviation (few inches), have you seen how the trees move in the game ---> suggests there's some serious wind. Jokes aside, it ain't realistic theres no deviation, even at longer ranges (see Ogledow). PLUS when a bullet penetrates 3 walls it DOESN'T stay at the same course: it ricochets or it fragmentates.
Like I said, there are MANY different variables that can alter its course.


Oh and: http://www.zen17212.zen.co.uk/Pics/UT/RO/141m.jpg
 
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No it doesn't. There should be some deviation (few inches)

Go to a rifle range, watch someone shooting a bench rested bolt action. Observe target. 90% of deviation is from the shooter, even the most ragged rifle is capable of far more accurate, repeatable shots than most people are aware. I can reliably hit what I aim at within a couple of inches at 250 yards and I'm no marksman. I only fire @ 10 rounds to dial in my scope before hunting once a year.

The shorter the barrel, the more deviation, but at the ranges in game 100-150m, it's negligible for any of the rifles, bolt or semi. Same for wind. In a controlled situation, it's really, really hard to miss a torso sized target at 100m.
 
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Which is exactly how it should be at those ranges!
Get that into your head, guns hit what you point them at. They're more accurate in real life than commonly portrayed in games and movies.

Yes, guns should hit what they are pointed at when they are locked down in a vise. It is a good thing when games compensate for the shooting platform know as "the human body" Just a bit of deviation is a good thing in a FPS.
 
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Go to a rifle range, watch someone shooting a bench rested bolt action. Observe target. 90% of deviation is from the shooter, even the most ragged rifle is capable of far more accurate, repeatable shots than most people are aware. I can reliably hit what I aim at within a couple of inches at 250 yards and I'm no marksman. I only fire @ 10 rounds to dial in my scope before hunting once a year.

The shorter the barrel, the more deviation, but at the ranges in game 100-150m, it's negligible for any of the rifles, bolt or semi. Same for wind. In a controlled situation, it's really, really hard to miss a torso sized target at 100m.

your stats are wrong. i have safes full of these milurps.
it's more like 99%!

this is what i've beeen trying to point out for a while now.
there's nothing wrong with the rifle. it's not over powered, it's not lazer guided. it shoots just kike the ones in our safe.

this aint duke nukem. there's no rali-gun.
 
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Go to a rifle range, watch someone shooting a bench rested bolt action. Observe target. 90% of deviation is from the shooter, even the most ragged rifle is capable of far more accurate, repeatable shots than most people are aware. I can reliably hit what I aim at within a couple of inches at 250 yards and I'm no marksman. I only fire @ 10 rounds to dial in my scope before hunting once a year.

The shorter the barrel, the more deviation, but at the ranges in game 100-150m, it's negligible for any of the rifles, bolt or semi. Same for wind. In a controlled situation, it's really, really hard to miss a torso sized target at 100m.

^^^ yes Lugnut you hit the nail on the head there,,,;)

Edit:As r5cya said 99% deviation is from
shooter in a controlled situation.This I agree with.
 
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Yes true. How about shooting while standing, with no support and completely out of stamina. RO2 firearms use some deviation in that scenario.

I'm just talking about the accuracy of the weapons, not the shooter. There should be much more sway (not deviation) in all stances except prone IMO in HOS and don't get me started on how little effect stamina has on sway. Too little and it goes away too soon. After sprinting, you should be looking for cover to catch your breath, not skidding to a stop and snap shooting someone across the map.
 
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I'm just talking about the accuracy of the weapons, not the shooter. There should be much more sway (not deviation) in all stances except prone IMO in HOS and don't get me started on how little effect stamina has on sway. Too little and it goes away too soon. After sprinting, you should be looking for cover to catch your breath, not skidding to a stop and snap shooting someone across the map.

I would even say slightly more sway is needed when prone or supported. Currently, the sights move a little when prone or when supported, but when you press Shift there's basically no sway. When prone and unsupported irl, your hands are still entirely responsible for holding up the weapon, resulting in some sway. Even when supported, your shoulder and hands are still in contact, imparting a lot of your natural motion to the firearm, even if it is on a bipod or resting on something. Having shot rifles and rifles with bipods from the prone position, this is just my own personal opinion.
 
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