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[Error] Weapon progression bonuses not disabled in Classic

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Proud_God

Proud_God

Grizzled Veteran
Dec 22, 2005
3,235
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Belgium
#1
Weapon porgression bonuses are not disabled in Classic or in Custom when using "No Progression Bonuses" setting. The only way we have found to disable the weapon progression bonuses is setting the "Maximum Weapon Proficiency Level" setting on 1, but this has side-effects: it makes the server custom and unranked, and when using Realism load-out, it also limits the weapon unlocks to level 1.

How we discovered this: in a Classic server, spawn with a weapon which you leveled to level 50. Time how long it takes to reload this weapon. Next, go to a custom server with the "Maximum Weapon Proficiency Level" setting on 1, and do the same reload. You will notice the reload is about 20% slower.
 
#2
I made a small mutator that did logs the weapon progression-modifiers during game play on a regular interval. I played one round of classic and one round of realism. I can only conclude that the weapon progression-modifiers do NOT apply in classic mode.

In the logs you can clearly see that the modifiers do stay at 1.0 in classic. In realism they have an other value. In realism they have the value belonging to the level of the weapon.

The logs can be found in the spoiler:
Spoiler!
The mutator in question is an updated version of ClassicTweak. Please feel free to try it yourself. The command is 'mutate CT StartLogProg 60'.

The mutator can be downloaded here: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/54368035/Mutators/ClassicTweak/ClassicTweak-rev52.zip
It's not white-listed (and never will), meaning the server will go unranked as long as the mutator is active.
 
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#3
That's interesting, Ducky. Are these loggings taken on the server or on the client? Would it be possible that server is indeed working with level 0 weapon bonuses, but your client visualizes them with current achieved level? That would explain my findings with the reload time.

Is it possible to do loggings on the server and client separately and compare them?
 
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#4
The logging is made server side and it will not be different at client side. The reason behind this is that the values of those progression modifiers are only changed in one specific function. This is the same function as used at the server side. The default values for those modifiers are 1.0. This means that if the client side function wouldn't be called, then those modifiers would stick at 1.0 on the client regardless if the mode is classic or realism. If however the client side function is called and the mode is realism, then they will still get the value belonging to the weapons level. In other words, the values will stick at 1.0 if the client side code wouldn't be called. In case of reloading, then the animation time would be the longest possible.
FYI: The reload modifier is directly used as a multiplier for the duration of the reload animation clip. 1.0 means the default duration (clip play time x modifier = animation play time). The value will be below 1.0 for higher level weapons and with that it decreases the duration of the reload animation video.
 
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#6
The only possible cause that I can come up with is that the bDisableProgressionBonuses isn't correctly replicated to the clients. Though the one that I logged in the mutator (see above loggings) comes from the replication object. If it isn't properly replicated, then it will stick at FALSE. In that case the bonuses will be applied in classic too. I think we should continue from there.

EDIT:
Did test it with client side logging. Same results. No weapon bonuses in classic. However, if in custom mode and the game is started in realism and then half way the web-admin tool is used to set bDisableProgressionBonuses to true (would mean disabled weapon bonuses), then the weapon bonus will still be present for your current weapons. The bonus will stay until die die and respawn or until the next round starts. After that they are all disabled.
 
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#7
Sarkis. said:
--SNIP--
Any joe can test this. Especially Commie Joe :) . Join a classic server and observe the sway, of a LVL 50 weapon vs a LVL 0. A good example that should fit everyone is the G41 and its sniper variant. Even checking ammo is faster and noticeable enough in the LVL 50 weapon. And I am assuming they have the same stats for recoil and sway initially. Probably better with the SVT actually, since more people use that.
Click to expand...

Someone did, and confirmed that the bonuses aren't there.

Sarkis. said:
In the webadmin for Bob's Whorehouse #2. Maximum Weapon Proficiency Level = 1. That will equate on a LVL 0 appearing in all weapons, when selecting them, regardless of player profile account. Additionally I had Classic Loadouts on, merely not to loose the PPSh41 drum mag and bayonets etc.
Click to expand...

You said it wasn't working in classic. Maximum Weapon Proficiency Level is disabled in Classic and Realism mode. Other words: you didn't use Classic to test this.

Sarkis. said:
Right out of the box, when using a bolt action rifle, the difference is quite clear in bolting speed/checking ammo. We also had a match, and everyone was positive that controlling the semiautos was much harder at LVL0, because of the increased recoil of some 20% at each shot fired. I am not capable enough to tell what the code says about it all, but testing has proved repeatedly that something is afoot.
Click to expand...

Make up your mind. One of your other posts:
Sarkis. said:
Right, but bonuses are present. Only the reloading then is absent. Try the sway, deploy MG and recoil so you see the difference. And you'd better not time anything as the difference is small enough so that manual timing isn't doing any favors or real science, in the case of less than a second time that it takes to check ammo. See how the sway is much more abrupt in a LVL 0 weapon, check the bolting speed and check ammo animations for bolt action rifles.

Actually screw all that. Controlling the MKb42 in LVL 0 is impossible, while in LVL 50 is somewhat reasonable. Even the MP40 will shoot for the sky in LVL 0.

I also just tested reloading, the animation is faster, but the text that clears firing comes later in relation to the animation, with bonuses on. Meaning that the animation finishes faster, but you will not be able to fire sooner, in classic. As you noticed.

Join the Refined Realism server to check weapons at LVL0.
Click to expand...
 
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#8
Ducky said:
Someone did, and confirmed that the bonuses aren't there.
Click to expand...

AFAIK, the test was based on the the time between start of the reload and the appearance of the text "Magazine is full, etc...". This time is not affected by the weapon bonuses in Classic, presumably because it is server side (no problem here). The reload animation itself however, is affected by the weapon bonuses in Classic (problem). Also the other weapon bonuses like sway and recoil have an effect in Classic (problem).
 
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#9
Proud_God said:
AFAIK, the test was based on the the time between start of the reload and the appearance of the text "Magazine is full, etc...". This time is not affected by the weapon bonuses in Classic, presumably because it is server side (no problem here). The reload animation itself however, is affected by the weapon bonuses in Classic (problem). Also the other weapon bonuses like sway and recoil have an effect in Classic (problem).
Click to expand...

If they're referring to my test, I also timed the interval between beginning to reload and firing the first shot. Realism (Level 50 weapon) has the faster 'real' reload.

Visually, the text saying "Magazine is full" happened to appear at exactly the same moment that I was able to fire the first shot.

The animation was completed properly in both Realism and Classic--the bolt was fully closed after insertion of the last round.

Firing a Level 50 PPSh-41 in Realism and in Classic at the same target from the same distance from the same point and without any recoil control, the Classic weapon ended up pointed higher into the sky, indicating the absence of recoil bonuses.

Using a Level Mosin Sniper and a Level 50 Mosin, both in Classic, I saw exactly the same level of sway, standing at the same point and measuring how many bricks in a wall were covered by the random movement.

EDIT: Testing bolting speed in Realism and Classic, I didn't feel any particular difference--but I did notice that in Classic, bolt-action rifles can fire up to fourteen shots in one go if the player fires and bolts as fast as they can. Not sure if progression-related or just a bug.
 
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#10
Nikita said:
If they're referring to my test, I also timed the interval between beginning to reload and firing the first shot. Realism (Level 50 weapon) has the faster 'real' reload.

Visually, the text saying "Magazine is full" happened to appear at exactly the same moment that I was able to fire the first shot.

The animation was completed properly in both Realism and Classic--the bolt was fully closed after insertion of the last round.

Firing a Level 50 PPSh-41 in Realism and in Classic at the same target from the same distance from the same point and without any recoil control, the Classic weapon ended up pointed higher into the sky, indicating the absence of recoil bonuses.

Using a Level Mosin Sniper and a Level 50 Mosin, both in Classic, I saw exactly the same level of sway, standing at the same point and measuring how many bricks in a wall were covered by the random movement.
Click to expand...

I will do more testing on my end when I have time. Regarding your remark on recoil, note that Classic implements an extra addition to recoil, separate from the weapon progression bonuses, so that should not be used to draw conclusions.
 
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#11
Proud_God said:
I will do more testing on my end when I have time. Regarding your remark on recoil, note that Classic implements an extra addition to recoil, separate from the weapon progression bonuses, so that should not be used to draw conclusions.
Click to expand...

Not according to the May 23 changelog. Increased recoil is only present when on low stamina, and this is a shared trait between Realism settings and Classic settings.
 
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#13
Ducky said:
Someone did, and confirmed that the bonuses aren't there.
Click to expand...

This someone is wrong.

Ducky said:
You said it wasn't working in classic. Maximum Weapon Proficiency Level is disabled in Classic and Realism mode. Other words: you didn't use Classic to test this.
Click to expand...

Off course I did. If the weapon has LVL 0 in classic, it will have no bonuses, but if it has LVL 50 the difference is there. Any one can try it. However it takes jedi perception.

Ducky said:
Make up your mind. One of your other posts:
Click to expand...

The bolting and checking ammo are animations, that are being affected by the bonuses. The reload is as well, however the server sent message ''Magazine Full'' comes from the server, hence the bonus is overridden, and hence, we have the bug where MG34s fail to reload, unless you hold the crouch, when using cover.

Nikita said:
If they're referring to my test, I also timed the interval between beginning to reload and firing the first shot. Realism (Level 50 weapon) has the faster 'real' reload.

Visually, the text saying "Magazine is full" happened to appear at exactly the same moment that I was able to fire the first shot.

The animation was completed properly in both Realism and Classic--the bolt was fully closed after insertion of the last round.

Firing a Level 50 PPSh-41 in Realism and in Classic at the same target from the same distance from the same point and without any recoil control, the Classic weapon ended up pointed higher into the sky, indicating the absence of recoil bonuses.

Using a Level Mosin Sniper and a Level 50 Mosin, both in Classic, I saw exactly the same level of sway, standing at the same point and measuring how many bricks in a wall were covered by the random movement.

EDIT: Testing bolting speed in Realism and Classic, I didn't feel any particular difference--but I did notice that in Classic, bolt-action rifles can fire up to fourteen shots in one go if the player fires and bolts as fast as they can. Not sure if progression-related or just a bug.
Click to expand...

Boom, you found it. That's it. The particular replication bug, that happens because there is no harmony between the client and the server. Now, there would be no problem if the bonuses were not valid. My testing on the same things prove that the bonuses are up in classic, or custom or realism. They are only off with Proficiency = 1. It's a bug and it should be fixed.

On another note. Ammo bonuses from Class Leveling should be removed or changed as they only introduce almost empty mags, doing more harm than good, most of times.
 
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#14
Proud_God said:
Iirc, that is on top of the base increase of recoil in Classic. Mekhazzio once mentioned the modifier, it was something around 10 - 30 % of recoil increase.
Click to expand...

The only post of his that I found with anything similar was

Mekhazzio said:
There are two different recoil multipliers for hipfire moving and hipfire stationary. The former is larger than the latter, but the difference for most weapons is fairly small. The two LMGs are the only weapons with a large difference, especially the MG-34 (175% more while moving)

There's an additional penalty for firing in midair.

Strangely, there is no modifier for movement during iron sights.
Click to expand...
 
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#16
Sarkis. said:
This someone is wrong.
Click to expand...

How come everybody else is always wrong and you are always right?

Sarkis. said:
Off course I did. If the weapon has LVL 0 in classic, it will have no bonuses, but if it has LVL 50 the difference is there. Any one can try it. However it takes jedi perception.
Click to expand...

No there isn't any bonus. Those logs contain the bonus values used during gameplay in classic.

Sarkis. said:
The bolting and checking ammo are animations, that are being affected by the bonuses.
Click to expand...

I already described that in post #4. But how come that:
ClipTime x ProficiencyModifier isn't equal to ClipTime is ProficiencyModifier equals 1.0? The logs clearly show that the ProficiencyModifier equals 1.0.

Sarkis. said:
The reload is as well, however the server sent message ''Magazine Full'' comes from the server, hence the bonus is overridden, and hence, we have the bug where MG34s fail to reload, unless you hold the crouch, when using cover.
Click to expand...

The bonus is overwritten because "Magazine Full" comes from the server? :eek:. What is the logic behind that conclusion?

Sarkis. said:
Boom, you found it. That's it. The particular replication bug, that happens because there is no harmony between the client and the server. Now, there would be no problem if the bonuses were not valid. My testing on the same things prove that the bonuses are up in classic, or custom or realism. They are only off with Proficiency = 1. It's a bug and it should be fixed.
Click to expand...

Boom, you mist it. Nikita clearly said in his post that the bonuses were not there in classic. Not for recoil. Not for sway and not for reloading.

Sarkis. said:
On another note. Ammo bonuses from Class Leveling should be removed or changed as they only introduce almost empty mags, doing more harm than good, most of times.
Click to expand...

Is this by any chance the real reason why you try to hunt a ghost bug?
 
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#17
Proud_God said:
Iirc, that is on top of the base increase of recoil in Classic. Mekhazzio once mentioned the modifier, it was something around 10 - 30 % of recoil increase.
Click to expand...
I don't think that was me. There's no difference in recoil handling between Classic and Realism except indirectly due to the progression bonus. Every modifier is applied the same way, with the same values, including the stamina lerp. (Classic changes very little, on the whole)
 
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#18
Mekhazzio said:
I don't think that was me. There's no difference in recoil handling between Classic and Realism except indirectly due to the progression bonus. Every modifier is applied the same way, with the same values, including the stamina lerp. (Classic changes very little, on the whole)
Click to expand...

I stand corrected then. I remember 2 values being adjusted by Classic mode, and I thought recoil was one of them. Ok, back on topic :)
 
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#20
My latest battery of tests:

• Classic server using ''open te-spartanovka?minplayers=8?maxplayers=8'' . . Weapons Bonuses OFF / Partial Harmony

• Random Classic server from the Browser. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Weapons Bonuses ON / No Harmony

• Custom Bob's #2 (Max. Weapon Level = 0)(Progression Bonuses Disabled) . Weapons Bonuses OFF / Harmony

• Custom Bob's #2 (Max. Weapon Level = 0)(Progression Bonuses Enabled) . Weapons Bonuses OFF / Harmony

• Custom Bob's #2 (Max. Weapon Level = 50)(Progression Bonuses Disabled). Weapons Bonuses ON / No Harmony

• Custom Bob's #2 (Max. Weapon Level = 50)(Progression Bonuses Enabled). Weapons Bonuses ON / Harmony (like Realism Mode)

_______________________

My Conclusions:

• bDisableProgressionBonuses isn't correctly replicated to the clients, when it comes to weapon experience bonuses.

• bDisableProgressionBonuses is correctly replicated to the clients, when it comes to class rank bonuses.

• bDisableProgressionBonuses is correctly replicated in the server, weapon experience bonuses and class rank bonuses.

• This creates disharmony between the server and the client, leading to failed reloads, spamming of extra bullets from bolt action rifles and possibly other replication bugs. This is what I meant by harmony, up in the results.

• Valid Weapon experience bonuses in Classic servers or Custom servers running without:
Maximum Weapon Proficiency Level = 1, but of couse, Classic can't run with this setting. However one can perfectly use a LVL 0 weapon in classic, by having a LVL 0 in his profile.

• The reloading animation receives the bonus but the actual firing ability, apparently, is only cleared by the server, resulting in the reload not to be affected by the bonuses if bDisableProgressionBonuses is TRUE. Bolting however is done clientside, and once it receives the bonus, allows for quicker fire of bolt action rifles. And hence allows them to be out of harmony with the server and to fire more bullets than they should.

• Whenever the bonuses are ON, sway, time to deploy machine guns, recoil, rate of fire for bolt actions, are all affected and behave like LVL 50 weapons, or any other level the client has in his profile.

_______________________

Sure, I could be wrong, and am simply making assumptions based on empirical testing and evidence, since I haven't looked in the code. But the evidence is there and is very clear. Something tangible is going on in a way that was not intended.
 
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