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Weapon levels, unlocks BAD IDEA

So I've only recently discovered that weapons will have levels, and that certain weapons/features will be locked for beginning players. I have a few reasons for why this is an extremely bad idea.

First of all let me say I don't like FPS games that have any type of levels, I want to start off the same as any other.

People don't play FPS games so they can level up, WoW and Skyrim serve that purpose. As soon as these type of players get on the servers and discover they're not allowed to use certain weapons, it'll be TF2 all over again. (Incidentally IMO it was unlocks and hats that destroyed that game, but I digress).

There will be achievement servers and people will go out of their way to try and get a level up. In TF2 this messed up a ton of servers. I think TW is making a mistake in implementing such a structured leveling system.
 
A lot of people actually find that unlocks in first person shooters are very enjoyable- it's one of the reason the Call of Duty games are so popular. It adds something to work for, which can increase the length someone might want to play the game. I don't see any problems with unlocks personally, especially since they can be turned off on a server to server basis.
 
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People in TF2 go onto Idling servers to get weapons & hats, because the game randomly drops them to players after a period of time.

Since RO2 isn't going to be doing this, it's a non-issue.

And it's not like TF2 where someone will have a rocket launcher that kills you and heals them, or sword & sheild to run around lopping people's heads off while you try and take them out with a engi-pistol or something like that......

.... and it's not going to be like BF:BC2 where you're going to have level 50's running around with armour protection, magnum rounds, more powerful & accurate weapons that can take you out in 1-2 hits and you being an engi or medic not actually having engi or medic equipment for 3-5 levels.

The weapons you start off with and the weapons you gradually unlock will all do the same thing..... shoot someone in the chest or head and the target dies.

There might be a few clowns just running around trying to unlock stuff or not playing the game as it should be..... but that has already existed in RO since the mod days, where some people had custom maps where both teams went at it in a couple of rooms with either just pistols or bolt action rifles..... it was just a mere deathmatch with no objective other than to shoot one another quake-style and with only one weapon.

If they want to do that, fine.... go right ahead. They can run around and act like a fool on their own servers while I and everybody else gains real-game experience and levels up as we normally should. They might get up in level by doing what you suggest, but once they come onto a real server with us real players..... regardless of their level/rank.... they're going to get skooled hard by all the other players who've been actually playing the game and gained real-game experience.

They're not going to have any serious advantage over anyone.
 
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.... and it's not going to be like BF:BC2 where you're going to have level 50's running around with armour protection, magnum rounds, more powerful & accurate weapons that can take you out in 1-2 hits and you being an engi or medic not actually having engi or medic equipment for 3-5 levels.

I didn't find BF:BC2 hard to play. Sometimes the first weapons you unlock are the best. You make it sound as if you get blown away after every step.
 
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this is an oft repeated thing so i recon this may get closed
- i don't really go for the idea myself but not because it will disrupt the game, as i think it will be employed intelligently as rewards for constructive behavior as opposed to silly antics in game.

However my issue is ppl who start playing a year or more down the line, and as well as being faced by a regulars with more ability and game knowledge while they tackle the learning curve, they also face an initial disadvantage in equipment - and presumably for quite some time.
This additional handicap may make the initial experience less fun for many and might even mean some dont bother toughing out the period of getting shat on to get to a level where they are at least reasonably competitive, and stop playing.

That's why I'm not a fan of persistent advantageous unlocks in any PvP game; and i dislike having that advantage - particularly against new players - as much as I dislike being on the receiving end.
 
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this is an oft repeated thing so i recon this may get closed
- i don't really go for the idea myself but not because it will disrupt the game, as i think it will be employed intelligently as rewards for constructive behavior as opposed to silly antics in game.

However my issue is ppl who start playing a year or more down the line, and as well as being faced by a regulars with more ability and game knowledge while they tackle the learning curve, they also face an initial disadvantage in equipment - and presumably for quite some time.
This additional handicap may make the initial experience less fun for many and might even mean some dont bother toughing out the period of getting shat on to get to a level where they are at least reasonably competitive, and stop playing.

That's why I'm not a fan of persistent advantageous unlocks in any PvP game; and i dislike having that advantage - particularly against new players - as much as I dislike being on the receiving end.

I think thats another reason. I'm not saying itll become the crapfest that TF2 became, but depending on how much more of an advantage the unlocks give, it could seriously disrupt the game balance between newer players and older players. This could very easily cause a deluge of unlock servers and people will join them, trust me. I myself decided to join one to unlock the pyro weapons when they came out (since pyro was my favourite class).

To the first poster, the fact that people enjoy it in COD is not my problem. Im just saying that I personally did not enjoy the new CODs for that reason.
 
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I found out that players will need to unlock the 71 round PPsH drum mag for balance issues, even though it was more common than the box mag.

A much more simple solution would be to make it so that if you choose Drum Mag you only get 1/2 Drum Mags to reload + 1 in the gun, forcing you to have to reload more tactically, this might cause you to go into a firefight with only 25 rounds because you do not want to waste them etc...

And if that were not enough you could increase the reload time for the drum mag and make it make more noise, like drum mags do, Ex: the tommygun.

This futile balance measure will only work for about 5 days before everyone has the drum mag and will only discourage new players.

It is also INCREDIBLY unrealistic from a game that prides itself on realism and refuses to put the MG42 for realism issues, to force everyone into using a very very rare magazine in replacement of the very common one.

Seriously, you couldn't let the MG42 slip by, or put in its prototype that HAS BEEN PROVEN to have been used at Stalingrad. BUT you put in a PPsH without the ICONIC, REALISTIC, drum mag.

I hope modders will be able to fix this if you don't; but then how will we get all the other stupid COD-UNLOCKS
 
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Why weapon unlocks are a GOOD thing:

- They give an overall sense of progress to playing by giving people milestones and personal goals to work towards.
- They give you more incentive to try other classes than your preferred one.
- Players will be more willing to play as riflemen as they can still 'progress' by playing with the 'less desirable' bolt action rifles.
- There is some degree of realism to it because more experienced soldiers would to some extent have acquired equipment in the field that they would personally use.
- Higher ranked and specially trained soldiers would be issued more expensive and specialized equipment, this is also realistic.

:IS2:
 
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I didn't find BF:BC2 hard to play. Sometimes the first weapons you unlock are the best. You make it sound as if you get blown away after every step.

I just started playing BC2 a few weeks ago, I found myself at quite a disadvantage. At level 13 and 14 you get body armor (25% less damage taken) and magnum ammo (25% more damage done) respectively, which gives you a lot more power. Past that most of the weapons that you unlock are very specialized.
 
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I'm hoping it won't be like in Call of Duty or Bad Company where you play on a regular basis but within a week everyone has max rank and all the rape weapons while you're left in the dust. Stuff like this kills the game for the average gamer. I play the game to enjoy it and when I can't play because everyone is whooping my *** (there is a difference between sucking at the game and the other guy actually having an advantage) already it's no fun. I have faith that TWI will ensure that the unlocks aren't omnipotent like some of the unlocks in CoD or other games. As they've said before the unlocks will tend to be subtle stuff that isn't really noticable. I just hope it doesn't become a freaking sh**fest of like "Prestige 50000 General of Teh armiez ownage runnin around with teh base rapin wepon" people :/
 
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The first problem is realism, which is to say the idea of a progression system that persists beyond avatar death is not realistic.

The second is game balance, which is to say that game balance is actually impacted by a system that rewards people for playing longer, which also contributes to a very hostile environment for newcomers who must contend against the most experienced players and their shiny new toys with equipment that is essentially tablescraps.

The third problem is that the entire system preys upon unhealthy obsessive compulsive behavior. If the game in and of itself is not meritorious and enjoyable to your person, you should stop playing it. Setting up a trail of breadcrumbs to a steak, while enticing, is sort of pointless if you don't eat meat.
 
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The first problem is realism, which is to say the idea of a progression system that persists beyond avatar death is not realistic....
That first argument has always been bull****, and you know it. The peopel who have played a lot of RO2 gets to play the veteran soldiers. It is as easy as that, no realism contradiction there.

I dislike the preogression system, but you just undermine our opinion with bull**** arguments mate.
 
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That first argument has always been bull****, and you know it. The peopel who have played a lot of RO2 gets to play the veteran soldiers. It is as easy as that, no realism contradiction there.

I dislike the preogression system, but you just undermine our opinion with bull**** arguments mate.

Indeed, that's a bit of a deathblow. As I see it, when people start talking about dying in a video game and what's not "Realistic", such as carrying over experience after you die..... newsflash:

What's realistic is that as soon as you die in the game, you're no longer allowed to play the game, it shuts down immediately, wipes itself from your computer and then your computer catches on fire and burns to ashes to make sure you can never play the game again..... after all, your character just died and not having any remote chance of ever playing again is what's "Realistic"

It's still a video game people and you can only reach for realism so far before it no longer becomes a video game, as well as no fun.

If you're that hard core for realism, go join your nation's military.

To me, the unlock/progression system in RO2 is appealing, it gives me something to keep working towards, it simulates progression in a military as best as a game could possibly do at this stage (without getting stupid with how realistic it should be)...... there are pins/medals that can be earned and actually shown on your character in game, rather than some off-screen window out of the game, there are ranks, there are weapons you eventually become qualified in using..... your character, abilities and equipment all progress and evolve along with you as you play the game..... all the while it doesn't suddenly make you a master over all other players or give you some completely unfair advantage in the game against other players.... unlike BF:BC2 with high rank players getting special armour to resist bullets and at the same time, magnum ammo to dish out more damage to your enemies.

Everything unlocked is still balanced and fair for the most part.... a bullet in RO2 is a bullet and they all can kill just as easily as the next, regardless of the weapon they're shot from. You get hit in the chest or head, you're dead..... those heroes and those vets will drop just as easily as a new player's character. The only difference between them all is personal experience and the time they played the game.... and unless someone in here has a plan on wiping people's memory after three months of playing the game, there isn't much you can do about that.

Added:

People talking about realism and at the same time complaining about some unfair advantage to new players vs vet players is pretty damn silly, as if you really want to talk about realism, tell me if it's fair for some new recruit with no experience in a real military to suddenly get all the medals, all the weapons and all the equipment some other soldier worked his butt off to get over the last 10-15 years of his life serving that military.

Is that new recruit at a disadvantage?

In that perspective, you're damn right he is.... and he should be. He didn't put in the man hours, training or the sacrifice to earn those things that the vet soldier who spent 10-15 years of his life serving that military and his country did.

I'd like anybody in here to tell me with a straight face that they'd expect some new recruit soldier in a real war to cry foul when he's pitted up against a soldier on an enemy force who's got many more years and many more kills under his belt and cry home to mamma that it's unfair.

That's what the higher ranking, more experienced soldiers are there for.... it's a team and you're supposed to work as a team. It's not a competition against your fellow soldier, nor is it supposed to be a race to get everything over your team mate. You work together, you cover each other's butt, and you both get rewarded, not to mention you both stay alive longer. If you're not sure about something and/or you think you'll die pretty quickly against an experienced enemy, you call in for help, you get the higher rankers with more experience to help you out so you can keep living and gain more points. They'll eventually need your help sometime down the road too, usually when they're pinned by the enemy and you have a clear, flanking shot on them.

And eventually the roles will be reversed, where you're a higher ranking vet and some green recruit is needing your help.

That's how it works.
 
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I agree with the OP. Cosmetic unlocks are great, but I have never understood unlocks that actually grant you an advantage in combat. If anything, new players should need BETTER equipment to survive, not the worst equipment in the game. I bet a lot of casually interested players would stay longer if they could experiment with every bit of kit out of the box and find a role that appeals to their playstyle. Still, I can't deny I'm with the minority when I say unlocks that influence gameplay are more of a bother than a reward.
 
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People argue that "unlocks" add length to the game. Yet they forget that its these same games which totally ditched innovation which set the games back.

Call of Duty would be just as popular if they worked hard to make the game good. (IE - full of features, great physics, more maps/bigger maps, more player/server options and so on) without the unlocks system. However, its much easier to make poo on a stick then slap some unlock system on it. Now, Call of Duty has to release poo on a stick every year to keep people on the unlock path. Where as I think Red Orchestra will keep you playing for the experience.

The unlocks in this game won't be that much of a big deal
 
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