Tigers like paper, Panthers invincible

[VariousNames]

EDIT: I was wrong : )

Panther>T-34/85
IS-2>Panther
Tiger=IS-2
??

I'm referring to the armor of the Tiger and the Panther.

I was playing Arad yesterday and driving a T-34/85. I scored a hit on a Tiger I's frontal armor....disabled it in one shot at 500 meters. I disabled the same Tiger driver in one shot to the frontal armor two more times at shorter ranges.

I engaged a Panther at a bunch of ranges and at different angles. At a point I was just trying to see if I could penetrate the armor. About 5 frontal armor shots at close ranges bounced off and an angled shot on the front corner bounced off. Out of curiosity I completely flanked a Panther and managed to get to POINT BLANK with maybe 5 degree angling from the horizontal and fired an AP 85mm shell into its side armor and it BOUNCED OFF.

Now, the Tiger I has a front plate with a vertical slope with a 100mm thickness. The Panther has a front plate with a slope off from the vertical at 60mm and a slightly sloped side armor with 40mm thickness.

If at 500m I can penetrate a 100mm vertical plate, I should likewise be able to penetrate a 40mm piece of side armor with a slight slope at point blank, no? BTW, IRL a PTRD (14.7mm AT rifle) was able to penetrate 40mm at 100m. That's more penetration than this 85mm AP tank shell in RO Ost Front!

Anyway, in short, Tigers are EXTREMELY underpowered and Panthers are EXTREMELY overpowered. With a T-34/85 I was unable to penetrate the Panther's armor at ANY range, nothing, nada, although I never got to take a shot at the rear armor (I'd bet it'd bounce off).

 

[Major_Day]

Angled correctly the Tigers and Panthers are invincible from the front, even against the IS2.
IMO the Tiger shouldn't even be on a map like Arad, since its turret turns too slowly, and its easy for the T34 to run circles round it, two shots into the Tigers arse and its gone.
Keep your Tiger at long range, angle it correctly, and its very hard to destroy. (except with arty of course)
The Panthers aren't at all overpowered, it just seems that way, when compared to the T34, which doesn't have the same firepower and is unlikely to ever take out a Panther from the front.

 

[VariousNames]

I'm not sure if you're clear on what I'm b****ing about. I destroyed a Tiger multiple times at various ranges by firing at its frontal armor. In case you don't realize, in real life a T-34/85 had an extremely difficult time penetrating the frontal armor of a Tiger because it was beastly.

The T-34/85 was pretty much incapable of penetrating the frontal 60mm sloped plate of a Panther as well at any reasonable range, but it could still do it at close enough range. But more importantly I was unable to penetrate the SIDE ARMOR (Read: WEAKEST ARMOR) at almost perfectly horizontal orientation (read: NO ANGLE) at point blank (read: MAXIMUM PENETRATION).

In other words the T-34/85 is practically incapable of defeating a Panther whereas it can eat Tiger I for breakfast, neither of which is realistic OR balanced in any way, shape, or form.

 

[Mikeedude]

Welcome to RO! The tanks were an afterthought,most of us use DH for tanking.

 

[LemoN]

the Panther had a 80mm frontal plate, not a 60mm

and nearly invulnerable side armor is a thing i have encountered way too often in Ost, so i guess its a bug in the armor system

 

[dogbadger]

Welcome to RO! The tanks were an afterthought,most of us use DH for tanking.

most of who?

 

[A complainer]

To kill a Panther in short ranges you have to fire at his coaxial gun or on that whereabouts,if you are able to see his side even if is angled fire on this spot.

just remember that if is angled as I said above shell can bounce off or one kill him with one or two shots,works on both side.If you cant afford a T-34/85 just ambush them with the T-34/76

Most people move to DH,but if there are servers playing Arrande and other maps with Hill 108 just skip them

 

[{Core}Craig]

Im glad the whole RO community is spoken for in this thread.

 

[Major_Day]

most of who?

At this moment in time...

RO = 437 players ingame now.... peak today = 798
DH = 129 players ingame now.... peak today = 277

I get my stats from Steam, not off the top of my head.

http://store.steampowered.com/stats/

 

[{Core}Craig]

DH is quite popular . . might have to play more

 

[-[SiN]-bswearer]

just watch out for some of those DH servers.....some terribly designed maps and the only servers with players anymore tend to have extremely incompetent admins.

probably why it started with 800+ players for 2 weeks, then for the next 5 months sat where it is right now. a real shame too because DH has a lot of cool things

 

[dogbadger]

most of who?

At this moment in time...

RO = 437 players ingame now.... peak today = 798
DH = 129 players ingame now.... peak today = 277

I get my stats from Steam, not off the top of my head.

[URL="http://store.steampowered.com/stats/"][URL="http://store.steampowered.com/stats/"][url]http://store.steampowered.com/stats/[/URL][/URL][/URL]

I was asking the question 'most of who?' in response to the statement '..most of us..'

armour afficionados?
Red orchestra malcontents?
who?

 

[Major_Day]

Yes i realised that, i was supporting your answer with the fact that more people are playing RO than DH

 

[GfrSeifter]

and I say that the Tiger is too weak in RO. but its true, using a Tiger on Arad is fail.

 

[Nazarov]

i like Red Orchestra.

 

[Cpt-Praxius]

This is something that is quickly turning me off of Ost to be honest.

Back in the mod days, I knew how and when to angle the T-34, IS2, Panther and sometimes if I was lucky, the Panzers......

Now I get into Ost and try to angle a tiger, panther or any of the other tanks and I'm lucky if I deflect one shot before I'm killed.... and even the deflected shots give me red damage on my indicator.

I don't know wtf people were smoking when they started screwing around with the angles and armor stats, but in my opinion they had it right in the mod and now it's all screwed up that I don't even bother touching the tanks and just foot it on every map.

Total disapointment with the tanks..... esspecially in an angled Tiger getting destroyed by a panzy T34 in one shot.

And even angled T34's are getting smoked by stugs.

When I actually ever did get a kill on an enemy tank, the shot that killed them would have normally deflected off no prob in the mod and they would have lived..... and sure I got a couple of points, but it's just not right.

Then again, maybe it is right.... but it sure as hell not right from what I remember in the old game.

Back in the mod, on say Karlovka and in a T-34, I'd stay right by the house, angle the tank, and I could literally sit there the entire round and not get damaged by the Panzers or troops coming to RB1 (so long as arty didn't fall on my head and my team mates covered my back from enemies coming from RB2)

Now I pull the same tactic in Ost, and before I even get a chance to switch to my cannon and turn my turrent I'm already killed in one hit.

Seriously WTF happened between 3.3 and Ost?

just watch out for some of those DH servers.....some terribly designed maps and the only servers with players anymore tend to have extremely incompetent admins.

probably why it started with 800+ players for 2 weeks, then for the next 5 months sat where it is right now. a real shame too because DH has a lot of cool things

The first thing that urked me about Darkest Hour was the US Grease Gun's Iron Sights and the damn bullet flash.

The sights are way too thick and block up most of your visual area and when you fire, the flash blocks the remaining visual area you had left.

And the Sten MKII looks way off.... way too long, too narrow, it should look something like this:

or even better:

Sure, low poly count (modeled years ago when poly counts were meant to be lower then today) and I'm not a texture master (I'm a modeler and animator mainly) but the proportions are correct.

But what do they have?

A narrow looking pipe.

They have all the details there for the most part, but it seems like most of their weapons had some poor top profile diagrams/measurements to go off of and most of the weapons are way too skinny.

 

[Zetsumei]

If anything tank rounds bounce more than how it was in the mod. Its just that over a period of 3 years time a lot of people know where exactly to hit.

Weapons looking off is due to the perspective of the game most models are actually modelled pretty accurate. .

 

[Cpt-Praxius]

If anything tank rounds bounce more than how it was in the mod. Its just that over a period of 3 years time a lot of people know where exactly to hit.

Um, no cuz like I said, shots I know for a fact wouldn't connect and would deflect in the mod, now are insta kills as I even can pull them off before I get insta killed.

Something has changed, whether it's more hit boxes or more sensitive hit boxes, it's far different from the mod, as I was still playing the mod right up until I got Ostfront a couple of weeks ago and there are some major differences with the tanks and how they respond to hits.

The IS2 in the mod when angled right was almost impossible to damage unless you got a good side, front or rear shot..... now being angled I might survive one hit taking me down to critical and get killed the next. Very rarely would I have more then one shot deflect in a row before being taken out.

And yet, even at times when I am almost point blank with a panzerfaust to a tank side-on at the engine or ammo hit zones, I need to hit them at least twice to take them out as opposed to the typical one shot in the mod.

Straight on shots of the front or rear are the same as the mod, but that's it.

Weapons looking off is due to the perspective of the game most models are actually modelled pretty accurate. .

Then how come the weapons in Ostfront arn't like this? It's the same game engine, using the same perspective traits? Come off it.

Here's another example:

Check out DH's FG42:

The frigging magazine is thicker then the actual gun and the bullets wouldn't even fit in the barrel if this was the real thing, compared to:

Day of Defeat

Last one:

If it's got to do with in-game perspective, why the hell isn't it a problem in Day of Defeat?

Even the original DoD got it right a decade ago.

Please stop acting like I don't know wtf I'm talking about and it's some friggin trick of the eye, it's a waste of time.... if you don't know, don't bother.

DH's textures and the details they put into their models are great, the side profile details are spot on as far as I can tell... but their thickness/proportions of the weapons are way off in their top profiles. I'm not trying to bash the hell out of their work... they just are. And since I was trained/educated on these things professionally, I think I know wtf I'm talking about, athankyou.

Not to mention that muzzle flash is insanely huge..... is a shuttle lifting off or something?

 

[Tank!]

I don't know wtf people were smoking when they started screwing around with the angles and armor stats, but in my opinion they had it right in the mod and now it's all screwed up that I don't even bother touching the tanks and just foot it on every map.

I think everybody who plays RO can agree that the tanking in RO is odd, off, unrealistic or just plain retarded...For example the SU 76 (that thinly armored self propelled tin deathtrap) can consistantly take two 75 mm or two 88 mm to destroy. The first hit only catches it on fire. If the situation were reversed and the Germans had a Marder III taking two hits from a T-34/85 or IS 2 people would be raising hell on these forums.


The soviet death trap T60 with its impotent 20 mm weapon can easily penetrate the front 50 mm armor of the Panzer III L (go play Hedgehog) and Panzer IV F1 & 2. This is a blatant spit in the face of realism. Why did Tripwire do this? Are they lacking in technical info or cannon performance data? Does TW lack books or research? Did they think it would be badass or 'cool' to code an obsolete light anti infantry tank with overpowered cannon properties? Again, if the situation were reversed and the Germans had a Panzer II F with its 20 mm penetrating and destroying a 45 mm thick T-34 people would be screaming bloody murder on these forums.


Lastly, for the Panzer IV H vs the T34/76 & T34/85 anybody with a basic knowledge of tanks knows that both these versions of T34 retained the same basic frontal hull armor of 45 mm at 60 deg from vertical due to weight reasons. According to Schiffer's Panzertruppen, Osprey Publishing, and World War II Ballistics: Armor and Gunnery (and many others):

At ranges up to 1,200 metres, the T-34 is cleanly penetrated at every angle that it is hit by the Pzgr.39 fired from the 7.5 cm Kw.K.40 L/43 (Pz IV F2)

WWII Ballistics:Armor.....goes a bit further and states that up to 1,600 metres if perpendicular. Another book (Guderian's duck?) states that the soviets themselves rated the armor of the KV1 S as offering marginally superior frontal protection than that of the T34.


Unfortunately, in RO the Pz IV H's cannon performance is a joke. If you encounter even a SLIGHTLY angled T34/76/85 it will take incredible amounts of 75 mm frontal hits which will deflect without damage even as close as point blank. On top of this a correctly angled T34 will deflect multiple 88 mm even at point blank which is rediculous. The T34's 45 mm at 60 deg was good in 1941 against 50 mm rounds and less but because of round overmatch a 75 mm or larger round does not give a damn if the T34's armor is sloped at 60 deg because the armor is to thin to offer proper ballistic resistance. According to a report from specialists from the People's Commissariat for Tank Industry who examined 154 knocked-out T-34 tanks in several repair workshops in Aug 1942 they claim that 75 mm rounds vs T34's at various angles and ranges averaged a ratio of 70% of hits being dangerous and 30% being safe (non penetrating or non vital areas). For 88 mm hits 95% of hits were considered dangerous and only 5% safe. Sadly in RO, an angled T34 acts like its armored like an IS3. If TW can not get the mainstay Soviet/German tanks to behave realistically......what can one expect from RO2?


I primarily bought RO because of its promise of being a 'realistic tanking simulator' as stated on RO's website. Some time ago TW edited their website and removed this claim. When RO2 comes out and if it has vehicles it will primarily be Pz IV vs T34. Due to all the stuff written above there is a 90% chance I will not buy the game unless game footage on Youtube shows a dramatically improved tanking system.

 

[Klaus]

I think everybody who plays RO can agree that the tanking in RO is odd, off, unrealistic or just plain retarded...For example the SU 76 (that thinly armored self propelled tin deathtrap) can consistantly take two 75 mm or two 88 mm to destroy. The first hit only catches it on fire. If the situation were reversed and the Germans had a Marder III taking two hits from a T-34/85 or IS 2 people would be raising hell on these forums.


The soviet death trap T60 with its impotent 20 mm weapon can easily penetrate the front 50 mm armor of the Panzer III L (go play Hedgehog) and Panzer IV F1 & 2. This is a blatant spit in the face of realism. Why did Tripwire do this? Are they lacking in technical info or cannon performance data? Does TW lack books or research? Did they think it would be badass or 'cool' to code an obsolete light anti infantry tank with overpowered cannon properties? Again, if the situation were reversed and the Germans had a Panzer II F with its 20 mm penetrating and destroying a 45 mm thick T-34 people would be screaming bloody murder on these forums.


Lastly, for the Panzer IV H vs the T34/76 & T34/85 anybody with a basic knowledge of tanks knows that both these versions of T34 retained the same basic frontal hull armor of 45 mm at 60 deg from vertical due to weight reasons. According to Schiffer's Panzertruppen, Osprey Publishing, and World War II Ballistics: Armor and Gunnery (and many others):
WWII Ballistics:Armor.....goes a bit further and states that up to 1,600 metres if perpendicular. Another book (Guderian's duck?) states that the soviets themselves rated the armor of the KV1 S as offering marginally superior frontal protection than that of the T34.


Unfortunately, in RO the Pz IV H's cannon performance is a joke. If you encounter even a SLIGHTLY angled T34/76/85 it will take incredible amounts of 75 mm frontal hits which will deflect without damage even as close as point blank. On top of this a correctly angled T34 will deflect multiple 88 mm even at point blank which is rediculous. The T34's 45 mm at 60 deg was good in 1941 against 50 mm rounds and less but because of round overmatch a 75 mm or larger round does not give a damn if the T34's armor is sloped at 60 deg because the armor is to thin to offer proper ballistic resistance. According to a report from specialists from the People's Commissariat for Tank Industry who examined 154 knocked-out T-34 tanks in several repair workshops in Aug 1942 they claim that 75 mm rounds vs T34's at various angles and ranges averaged a ratio of 70% of hits being dangerous and 30% being safe (non penetrating or non vital areas). For 88 mm hits 95% of hits were considered dangerous and only 5% safe. Sadly in RO, an angled T34 acts like its armored like an IS3. If TW can not get the mainstay Soviet/German tanks to behave realistically......what can one expect from RO2?


I primarily bought RO because of its promise of being a 'realistic tanking simulator' as stated on RO's website. Some time ago TW edited their website and removed this claim. When RO2 comes out and if it has vehicles it will primarily be Pz IV vs T34. Due to all the stuff written above there is a 90% chance I will not buy the game unless game footage on Youtube shows a dramatically improved tanking system.

IS2 greatest tank of WWII