Squads and Firefights - More Details

[Keystone]

It is really supperior over spawning on SL.
When played as SL in RO2 I found the best tactic to hide somewhere near objective to allow my squad spawn on me and rush to the objective.

This is exactly what I mean. Do you want to ruin another game experience what could be an interesting vietnam war title by spawning on top of a SL which creates a lot of exploitation as described above?

As LugNut said this type of spawning on rally point system still works on much smaller maps such as COD2.

So this only comes down to whether you actually want a more sensible getting back to combat zone which makes the player think twice before making again a risky move towards an enemy and die too easily or just constantly flood your squaddies into a hotspot and not caring about lives like in RO2?

Does TWI have an interest and desire to evolve from this flawed spawning on top of SL mechanic is the question?

A deployable spawn point function could be adjusted to suit, it could have a time limit, spawn limit, undeployable too close to Caps, destroyed if enemy gets close, physically destroyable etc.

That is something to think as a next step forward to improve the rally point system.

Especially I've been thinking exactly that - "being undeployable too close to caps" as you wrote.

The game should be functioning without fobs (even Squad devs said that) as they tend to be too static same like the old fixed spawn points - you can't move them and just stay there which in the end fobs gets camped too easily as they can't be easily destroyed the way rally points can if you're nearby. You have to surround them and try to get inside, which is similar thing happening when the Squad Leader in RO2 is hiding somewhere in an indomitable place such as bunker/tunnel/room etc.

So personally I would remove fobs altogether.

Because same like it's with spawning on top of the Squad Leader, you can place a fob and spawn inside a capzone and that just breakes/abuses the normal battlefield characteristics by players not having to play carefuly to spare their lives as they can easily spawn back to hot zone.

In the end it creates scenario where players desperately are trying to get inside either a well defended bunker/tunnel/room to kill that Squad Leader popping his squaddies out or in case of PR/Squad game the FOB.

But at least in PR/Squad players don't do that often as losing an FOB cost you about 10 tickets not to mention put in risk losing a lot of men so placing it nearby an objective generally is not favourable in this game. But on the other hand in RO2 as LionbI4 described where you can easily sneak somewhere near an objective and start spawning your squaddies into it is extremely exploitative and game breaking behaviour. Well unless you're into this sort of as you often see players in game/forums using the term "cluster****".

 

[nymets1104]

The Rally Point System in PR/Squad works well but I dont feel like it would work as well in RS2 simply due to the size of the maps. The maps in PR and Squad are something like 4 Square miles? Even the largest maps in RO2/RS were no where near that size and I doubt RS2 maps will be much larger. I just cant see having the map clogged with 4 or 5 spawn points on top of the set spawn points.

Also, the current spawn system requiring the SL to be alive keeps the point "destroyable" by the other team. Having the rally point placed means its always there even when the SL is dead. So essentially, once your team gets one or two rally points near the cap, it will quickly fall. Just don't see this working on smaller scale maps.

 

[LugNut]

We already have deployable spawn points, I'm not suggesting we add more. They are squad specific just like spawn on SL.

Make it only active while the SL is alive then, or even better, limit it to 8 or whatever spawns so, the SL can get back his squad. The reason the are called rally points is so after a firefight, you can "rally up" with your squad mates instead of some people still being alive and some back at spawn. They have a cool down so, unlike Spawn on SL, you can't keep spitting out teammates without end. A smart SL uses them judiciously, mainly to gather scattered squad mates.

 

[Keystone]

Yes it would be illogical to have spawning on SL with the squad system and I can never understand "averseness" to the rally point concept. The whole idea of the squad system is to advance to the objective together and the rally point allows you to spawn safely at the back away from the objective. The size of the map doesn't matter whether it's small the rally point still works. After playing Squad really makes you see the battles having a better flow and just can't imagine if it was on top of the SL. The whole mechanic of the gameplay would be contradictory to what it should be.

I'd be disappointed if TWI wouldn't see the benefits of spawning on a rally point away from the capzone which promotes squads playing in a more cautious manner rather than spawning inside a capzone which causes unrelentless meatgrinding.

So it's very unlikely I will buy the game if it goes back to the old spawn on top of the SL. I suspect many people now that have seen how rally points work offering a better squad cohesion will be unable to go back to spawning on SL.

 

[AngryKoala]

As with any mechanic, increasing or reducing its effectiveness has consequences on the rest of the game, even if you think it is more realistic or fun. A balance needs to be struck, not just changing one aspect of the game.

Attacking difficult objectives in RS would feel next to impossible if constant spawning was not allowed on rally point or SL. Even with constant spawning on an SL, some points were a real grind to take. If a different system is chosen, it would have to either force a change in game mechanics, or make sure that the it is just as advantageous as a good SL in RS being a spawn factory.

 

[LugNut]

If you ever played on a server with SoSL off, you'd see that the game still plays fine without infinite spawns on a SL, it's just slightly different since you try to stay alive a little harder as the penalty for dying is a longer walk. Both sides have the same tools, so it's still a struggle for both to get to the cap.

 

[Lemonater47]

If you ever played on a server with SoSL off, you'd see that the game still plays fine without infinite spawns on a SL, it's just slightly different since you try to stay alive a little harder as the penalty for dying is a longer walk. Both sides have the same tools, so it's still a struggle for both to get to the cap.

Some maps require it almost. On some maps it's fine on other maps you get stuck on one cap zone that's usually easy or easily take a capzone that's usually hard. Changes up th balance of each map.

God damn omaha with no spawn on SL

 

[LugNut]

Ofc. That's because it was balanced with SoSL, with the current movement speeds, zoom, yada yada. It was a grindfest without it on the beach. Once you change anything, it affects the balance. One of the main reasons that multiple game modes are tough to implement. Slow down the movement speed like Classic and you'd need to move spawns, increase the match time, etc.

My point was that the basic experience stays the same, but finer points change. Playing without SoSL still feels like RO2 or RS, just slightly different. Tactics change to accommodate it, just like anything.

Think about playing Omaha with rallys though, it'd still play fine. Get across the beach, drop a rally in a crater near the wire. Wait for a few squadmembers to join you then smoke and move up. The rest of the squad can continue to spawn in behind you where it's safe and then reinforce. If you the SL die, and the rally is still viable, you can link back up. If your guys get overrun, start over. Instead of hiding out in the house with the radio or a bunker so your guys can spawn in and then they go off and do whatever, you could actually keep them together and more effective. 3-4 guys together are more likely to take down 3 or 4 guys they encounter individually.

 

[aaz777]

the reason why rally points are relatively realistic (mostly) in squad is because they are placed away from the fight, and theoretically the soldiers could go from the main base to the rally point without being noticed and attacked by enemy. So if you spawn on rally point, it can be explained as when you were playing a previous soldier, another soldier was going from base to rally point and now you are controlling him. Honestly i would even like it to be implemented as a bot walking to the rally point and then sitting here, waiting for being controlled by a player. His route can be set up by commander or the player, so he would walk in unnoticeable places. If rally point is placed badly, bots will be noticed by enemy and players wont get a spawn on rally point. That way it will be totally realistic.

Rally point in beach crater will be just as bad as spawn on SL, simply because the entire beach is opened for german eyes and its all controlled, its not "away" from the fight, its part of it. The only way americans can get to bunkers is to walk from the beach. If they will spawn in crater, they will appear from nowhere and it will be affecting on the gameplay a lot.

 

[Lemonater47]

the reason why rally points are relatively realistic (mostly) in squad is because they are placed away from the fight, and theoretically the soldiers could go from the main base to the rally point without being noticed and attacked by enemy. So if you spawn on rally point, it can be explained as when you were playing a previous soldier, another soldier was going from base to rally point and now you are controlling him. Honestly i would even like it to be implemented as a bot walking to the rally point and then sitting here, waiting for being controlled by a player. His route can be set up by commander or the player, so he would walk in unnoticeable places. If rally point is placed badly, bots will be noticed by enemy and players wont get a spawn on rally point. That way it will be totally realistic.

Rally point in beach crater will be just as bad as spawn on SL, simply because the entire beach is opened for german eyes and its all controlled, its not "away" from the fight, its part of it. The only way americans can get to bunkers is to walk from the beach. If they will spawn in crater, they will appear from nowhere and it will be affecting on the gameplay a lot.

Well actually on omaha you can't spawn on the beach simply because the germans can see the beach. Can't spawn in line of sight of an enemy. Or at least what the game considers "line of sight". But yeah it would just spawn people back at the start anyway.

But it was for when the Americans managed to get to the other side. They got a squad leader all the way up there. That's when its useful as the Americans can spawn.

Now Rally points. They won't work with that "can't spawn while looking" feature.

 

[LugNut]

You could spawn players on you while in craters in both of the first two caps as well as when you flanked either side of the beach. I'm not sure how line of sight is determined by the code, but all it seems to need is a bit of cover. There's no reason that needs to change.

The argument that magically spawning players on a human deployable spawn point is more logical than magically spawning players on another type of deployable spawn point is weak. Neither are realistic in any way, they are concessions to allowing more fun game play.

You could incorporate all the same limitations you have now, it could function in the same way, with the same problems and benefits with the main advantage being it frees up the SL to being able to move with his squad while still allowing stragglers to spawn. Deployable spawn points are already a mechanic in the game, they do work, the concept is sound. They don't have to be exactly like they are in Squad or PR, they don't have to be exactly like they were in RO2/RS either, they should be tailored to this game.

 

[Lemonater47]

Arguing that one is more logical than the other is fine but don't try arguing realism with either of them lol.

 

[LugNut]

neither are realistic in any way,

:d

 

[NorthDumpling]

Rising Storm 2 at the end of all this strongly dont need rally point system, as it will likely ruin all the gameplay and a feeling. Again, maps size are not like 4x4 km, so its kind of useless.
The old and good one spawn on SL is more much more valuable, as it makes people respect and take care of SL as the TL , but with less spectre of possibilities.

 

[Keystone]

The flaws of spawning on SL far outweighs the rally point system and it far more ruins the gameplay. It's because the very core behaviour of spawning on SL thus squadmates all of sudden being nearby a capzone is contradictory and discordant with a natural flow of the battle.

It gives you an unfair advantage once the SL manages to get close to the enemy you can just continue to spawn without the need of actually working hard to gain a foothold to the objective. And even on a map like Omaha Beach it is far worse than rally point. As shown in the video rally point on Omaha Beach works perfectly fine, and it would work just as fine in RS2 with right adjustment for smaller maps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YnVn1Dh5CQ

With the rally point Squad Leader actually tries to stay alive by staying in the background (otherwise might lose a rally point if he dies) and leading his troops instead of running into an objective so he can start spitting his squaddies in.

Bear in mind how rally point is never placed too close to the enemy and therefore defenders are not all of sudden spawning all around like it happens with spawning on SL.

 

[AngryKoala]

I have not played a game with a rally point system. Are you able to place rally points inside objectives or very close to them?

 

[nymets1104]

I dont doubt the rallypoint system works great in PR and SQUAD. Even a map like RO2 Omaha Beach could probably accomidate such a system but that map is prob one of the larger infantry maps in the entire game. From the beach to the church is nearly a full kilometer and thats still small compared to PR and SQUAD Maps.

FOR RS2 i highly doubt that there will be any maps any bigger than that size with the majority much smaller (im thinking Spartanovka Sized maybe demyansk on the larger end). So for the rallypoint system in this context i still feel like it needs larger maps. That does not mean i am in love with SL spawn, but it seems more practical in this case. I do however see no need to be able to spawn on an MG.

 

[LugNut]

Ok

This is my last comment. I promise.

Assume the settings for SoSL and a rally are the same. Line of sight, distance from the cap, etc.

Currently, if you're a SL and want to get your guys into a cap, you'll look for that magic spot, not too close, not too far, in cover so you're safe and sit there for a while your squad mates spawn right next to you. That will last until you move out of that safe zone or your position is compromised and you die. Unless you feel like hiding there for an extended period, it usually means 3-5 respawns.

With a rally, you'd do the same thing, find that magic spot and drop your radio or whatever it is. Your squad mates could spawn say 8 times, or whatever a full squad ends up being. The rally would stay active for those spawns unless your position was compromised and it then vanishes.

If you can configure SoSL to work on small maps, rallys would work as well with the same settings. I can think of a pile of places where I'd drop a rally on Apts, either attacking or defending, pretty much the same places I'd go as a SL to spawn people.

Advantages: with a rally, you know it's in a safe spot since it's stationary. With SoSL, you can have guys spawn on you in unsafe areas and without warning as you change positions. You're crouched behind a wall, they spawn 3 feet over out in the open.

You know where you are when you respawn. If you were with the SL when he dropped it, you know exactly where you you're coming back to.

With a rally, you're free to move up, throw smoke, get arty marks, coordinate with your squad mates. With SoSL, you either hide and respawn people or move out and lose that respawn.

Since SLs don't have to sit there and stare at a wall the entire time, I think rallys would be far safer for the players respawning in since you'd be more likely to drop them in a building or somewhere with substantial cover or with concealment.

Your teammates would still value you and want to keep you alive, without you to drop rallys, they're screwed.

Disadvantages: your SL could either put them in terrible places or not drop them at all. Not different from what we have now with unaware SLs always being in bad spots.

No infinite spawns from SLs hiding in the back of bunkers. Not entirely a bad thing IMO.

 

[AngryKoala]

Thanks for the comprehensive perspective LugNut.

A bad SL1 in RS could easily lose you the entire map, while a good one can win it in no time at all. I do want to take away some of the responsibility from the SLs. Many SL1's have died trying to make an arty mark, which is quite annoying since the main job of an SL in RS is to stay alive (and any TL worth their rank can make their own marks in between recons and arty, not to mention the other SLs who should be making marks instead of SL1). With the rally system you describe, the SLs would be more alleviated from the pressure of staying alive and staying in a good spawning position, so arty marks would not come at such a sacrifice.

Therefore, I am for a revamp of the spawning system, in favor of a system that resembles rally points.

A note on the disadvantages you listed:

your SL could either put them in terrible places or not drop them at all.

Perhaps the latter can be mitigated by a server setting that relieves an SL of duty if they do not drop a rally point after 5 minutes of gameplay.

No infinite spawns from SLs hiding in the back of bunkers.

Since some would see this as good, and other as bad, then maybe it can be a server setting. The setting can be how many spawns per rally point, from 1 up to infinity.

 

[Lemonater47]

One of the issues with The current system is the fact they made 1 squad leader have half the team in the sqaud. Making it so only 1 squad leader mattered.

In RS2 this won't happen the way the squads work.

Red orchestra is also far less dynamic than squad in the way a battle works. Now they said they were going to make it less linear in RS2 but it's not going to be anything like squad. So rally points make less sense. They also don't die if they get shot. Plant and forget slawn system. It's more gimmicky, takes out an element on the game and isn't as simple.